Dedicated RV outlet at house questions

[RobertDS]

Site Team note: This thread was split off from another thread.

Wmtire,

I was once told to install a ground bus in my distribution box and to separate the common from the ground wires. I did but have always wondered why since the common bus is fastened to the box as is the ground. My common bus bar was on the right so I moved to the other side of the box and placed the ground bus or did I not see an isolation fastener?

I noticed the person who wired the box I am adding the 50 amp RV service to also mixed the common and the ground on the same bus bar.

I plan on adding a ground bus because I don't think it would pass without a ground bus now.

I seemed to drop my question... How is it that a common bus bar and a ground bus bar are needed?

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by RobertDS

Wmtire,

I was once told to install a ground bus in my distribution box and to separate the common from the ground wires. I did but have always wondered why since the common bus is fastened to the box as is the ground. My common bus bar was on the right so I moved to the other side of the box and placed the ground bus or did I not see an isolation fastener?

I noticed the person who wired the box I am adding the 50 amp RV service to also mixed the common and the ground on the same bus bar.

I plan on adding a ground bus because I don't think it would pass without a ground bus now.

I seemed to drop my question... How is it that a common bus bar and a ground bus bar are needed?

Robert, I'm not for sure I am following your questioning. I am assuming you had someone install perhaps a 'subpanel' for you, in order to connect your RV to it. Where is the panel getting it's power from. Is it connected to your house''s main electrical panel.... or is it maybe perhaps a metered main panel direct from the power lines (like your house would be)?

Speaking just from a subpanel point of view (it's connected back to your house's electrical distribution panel):

These links may help explain why you need to have only one neutral/ground bonding point (at the main panel) and why you keep them unbonded at subpanels. I think this may be what you are asking.

Why separate the ground bar from the neutral bar in a sub-panel? - E&S Grounding

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questi...nd-and-neutral

https://diy.stackexchange.com/questi...-a-breaker-box

--------------------------------------------

Also, on a related side note somewhat, this one ground/neutral bonding point at only the main panel, affects an EMS(Electrical Management System) if you have one on your RV and attempt to use it with a generator that has it's neutral/ground unbonded. Yamaha and Honda inverter type generators usually are unbonded.

One of the smartest men I know and our resident hot-chassis expert, Mike Sokol, explains that here with what you must do to get the EMS to work with the unbonded generator. Watch his video linked in the following too. Even if you don't have an EMS now, it may be something to file away for later in case you buy a generator and/or an EMS for the RV.

Generator Ground-Neutral Bonding | No~Shock~Zone

I may split this off into it's own thread as it's off-topic actually to the OP's problem which we are still troubleshooting and trying to figure all out.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Originally Posted by RobertDS

Wmtire,

I was once told to install a ground bus in my distribution box and to separate the common from the ground wires. I did but have always wondered why since the common bus is fastened to the box as is the ground. My common bus bar was on the right so I moved to the other side of the box and placed the ground bus or did I not see an isolation fastener?

I noticed the person who wired the box I am adding the 50 amp RV service to also mixed the common and the ground on the same bus bar.

I plan on adding a ground bus because I don't think it would pass without a ground bus now.

I seemed to drop my question... How is it that a common bus bar and a ground bus bar are needed?

As Bluepill noted above the common and ground must be kept separate. The only place they are to be bonded together is in the main service panel.

[RobertDS]

Originally Posted by wmtire

Robert,
I may split this off into it's own thread as it's off-topic actually to the OP's problem which we are still troubleshooting and trying to figure all out.

Please do, I felt guilty hi-jacking OP's thread.

[RobertDS]

Ok, I am back. I trenched, laid the 1 ½" conduit in prep for the wire, etc. and had to drive 305 miles home for a medical appointment for DW.

To start over...

My ground/common question arose from having wired MY previous home's garage. The inspector required that I put a separate ground bus in the garage service panel not the main in the house before he would pass it.

Now, four years later.
My DW and her deceased husband put a 1982 28' Beaver under cover on 20 acres. He wired the carport/cover for 30 amp service plus an add'l 30 amp service for guests. The setup works fine.

We bought our Wildcat 32RL in August and after much discussion decided to level a pad space next to it so the Beaver can be used as a workshop/guest house and will eventually have a carport type structure put over the Wildcat.

Thus, needed a 50 amp pedestal for the 32RL. Researched wire size for a 50 amp service in an approximate 100 ft run. Charts on the interweb and this site indicate # wire4. Plan on #4 stranded copper, red, green, white, black.

I stopped in to an electrical supply store, was talking to the owner who informed me that #6 was adequate.

Holding off because needed to come home and plan review budget, get more parts, etc before heading back to hopefully finish, winterize the trailer, then head back south to Fort Mohave (without 5er) because we have a house sitting gig until at least Feb before we head back up to prep our house for sale.

My question about why a separate ground bus was semi answered in the reading where I read, ... paraphrasing ... the hot and common form a circuit while the ground creates a safe path in case of a fault (short) with the common.

All of this makes perfect sense (to me) except the ground bus required was to me in what I consider a sub panel in the garage.

I was NOT required to segregate the grounds and commons in the main box where they were mixed together in 1985 on the same bus.

So now...

Main box.
[emoji848]

In main box, two 30 amp breakers to feed two separate RV circuits. One used full time, one mainly off unless guests drop in.

One 20 amp circuit to service weed whacker, circular saw, etc. I noticed as I was leaving that this one is NOT GFCI protected so I must add that when I go back, too.

I will add one 50 amp breaker wired to an RV outlet.

Before wiring, I will print out the guide found on this site so as to not reverse L1 and L2.

Anything else that I need to watch for?

[wmtire]

See replies in red.

Originally Posted by RobertDS

My ground/common question arose from having wired MY previous home's garage. The inspector required that I put a separate ground bus in the garage service panel not the main in the house before he would pass it.

Yes, this sounds like you are running a subpanel in the garage off of the main panel in the house. It would require the neutral and ground be unbonded from each other, as explained in the links I posted previously.

Now, four years later.
My DW and her deceased husband put a 1982 28' Beaver under cover on 20 acres. He wired the carport/cover for 30 amp service plus an add'l 30 amp service for guests. The setup works fine.

We bought our Wildcat 32RL in August and after much discussion decided to level a pad space next to it so the Beaver can be used as a workshop/guest house and will eventually have a carport type structure put over it.

Thus, needed a 50 amp pedestal for the 32RL. Researched wire size for a 50 amp service in an approximate 100 ft run. Charts on the interweb indicate #4. Plan on #4 stranded copper, red, green, white, black.

I stopped in to an electrical supply store, was talking to the owner who informed me that #6 was adequate.

This site may help as it has links to wire size calculators to help determine it all. Click on the 50 amp service tab on the lefthand side of the page and scroll down to around the middle of the page

RV Electric

[RobertDS]

WMTire, I saved then edited to finish. Sorry for the confusion but I have lost too many posts due to dropped connections not to be cautious.

[CedarCreekWoody]

For a 100 ft run you should use 4 guage. 6 guage is ok on a 50 ft run.

[FFred]

Its worth the expense to install the #4 as in the future , want it or not , battery cars are on the way.

A real 240V 50A powered socket is required for the fastest charge .

[RobertDS]

Ok, I am back, got the wire. Pulled the wire.

Then I noticed the label in the first picture on my main panel and the wiring.



The label says “service disconnect” and under the cover is in the second picture which shows how the box is wired.



In the box is a 200 amp main which has four breaker “slots” two 30 amp, a 30 amp, and an empty.

Up off to the side are tow heavy wires leading to a place where I could put the 50 amp breaker but it would then not be a part of the 200 amp service and if one were to flip that main, you would not kill the 50 amp service nor have that as Protection (?).

I hate to think of losing the 20 amp circuit but those are available via either the motor home or the 5er.

Is it ok, by code, to use that service disconnect for my 50 amp service? Technically the box then could pull 250 amps if I were to wire it that way...

[RobertDS]

That should read two 30 amp breakers and one 20 amp breaker.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by RobertDS

Technically the box then could pull 250 amps if I were to wire it that way...

Uhh Robert, I think it would be best to get a professional electrician at this point. I don't believe some things are being understood.

[WY Husker Fan]

Originally Posted by RobertDS

Ok, I am back, got the wire. Pulled the wire.

Then I noticed the label in the first picture on my main panel and the wiring.

Attachment 153760

The label says “service disconnect” and under the cover is in the second picture which shows how the box is wired.

Attachment 153761

In the box is a 200 amp main which has four breaker “slots” two 30 amp, a 30 amp, and an empty.

Up off to the side are tow heavy wires leading to a place where I could put the 50 amp breaker but it would then not be a part of the 200 amp service and if one were to flip that main, you would not kill the 50 amp service nor have that as Protection (?).

I hate to think of losing the 20 amp circuit but those are available via either the motor home or the 5er.

Is it ok, by code, to use that service disconnect for my 50 amp service? Technically the box then could pull 250 amps if I were to wire it that way...

It is perfectly fine to utilize the additional service disconnect. The wiring diagram should be somewhere on the dead front or the cover. Check to make sure 50 amps is ok per the label. Around here those types of meter/main panels have the extra service disconnect for well pumps. That way if you have to disconnect the home for some reason you don't lose water - likely for fire suppression.

[RobertDS]

Originally Posted by wmtire

Uhh Robert, I think it would be best to get a professional electrician at this point. I don't believe some things are being understood.

Ok, thanks.

[RobertDS]

Originally Posted by WY Husker Fan

It is perfectly fine to utilize the additional service disconnect. The wiring diagram should be somewhere on the dead front or the cover. Check to make sure 50 amps is ok per the label. Around here those types of meter/main panels have the extra service disconnect for well pumps. That way if you have to disconnect the home for some reason you don't lose water - likely for fire suppression.

Thanks, WY Husker Fan, will check the wiring diagram in the AM when I can see, then head to the nearest town to confer with the electrician who told me I could probably get by with #6 wire for my 100 foot 50 amp run.

On the second thought, I will probably just tuck the 50 amp breaker onto the 200 amp main service. We may need the other circuit for a well one day when the county starts issuing well permits again.

Fire suppression is a good thing.

It is good to know that I recognized the basic layout though.

On the agenda for tomorrow, finish wiring, check voltages, button up, add LED kitchen lights.

Next pick elderberries for wine. Rest.

Winterize. Protect tires. Cover it up. Head for AZ for the winter via Northern CA.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Originally Posted by wmtire

Uhh Robert, I think it would be best to get a professional electrician at this point. I don't believe some things are being understood.

X2!

[quicky06]

A main service panel ( where the power comes in from the pole and hooks to the property) is required to have neutral and grounds connected. So there is nothing wrong with sharing a ground and neutral bar.

A sub panel ( a box that is not fed directly offf the power pole) should have a separate ground and neutral bar.

[RobertDS]

Originally Posted by quicky06

A main service panel ( where the power comes in from the pole and hooks to the property) is required to have neutral and grounds connected. So there is nothing wrong with sharing a ground and neutral bar.

A sub panel ( a box that is not fed directly offf the power pole) should have a separate ground and neutral bar.

Thanks. There is no doubt in my mind that this box is correct.

I understood before that the Service Disconnect (well circuit) was not connected/disconnected by the 200 amp main. Maybe I did not state it correctly.

I referred to the well circuit as not being protected by the 200 amp main. It isn’t because it isn’t connected. If it were switching it off would turn off the power to the well thus eliminating fire protection possibilities.

So I am back to the four circuits in the main box, switched by the 200 amp main breaker (thus protected by the main breaker).

Thanks to everyone who contributed.

[WY Husker Fan]

If you post a pic of the panel label either showing the wiring diagram or the catalog number I can tell you if a breaker is available that would combine the 30 amp 2-pole with a new 50 amp 2 pole. That is a cutler hammer panel and they make combination devices that have two 2-pole breakers that fit in two 1" spaces. I've been an electrician for almost 40 years - the last 23 as the owner of a contracting business. Very familiar with your situation.

[RobertDS]

Originally Posted by WY Husker Fan

If you post a pic of the panel label either showing the wiring diagram or the catalog number I can tell you if a breaker is available that would combine the 30 amp 2-pole with a new 50 amp 2 pole. That is a cutler hammer panel and they make combination devices that have two 2-pole breakers that fit in two 1" spaces. I've been an electrician for almost 40 years - the last 23 as the owner of a contracting business. Very familiar with your situation.

The panel label is unreadable. I looked on line last night for mbe48b200bts wiring diagram but could not find one.

Thanks.