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Old 08-03-2017, 01:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Walholler View Post
I have an old coffee peculator that makes 4 cups at a time. It is the stove top type or could be used over the campfire. Either way, it does not require a inverter, 2 or 4 six volt batteries or propane, it saves one the head aches that goes with the above. If you desire more that four cups of coffee, just make another pot.
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Old 08-03-2017, 01:47 PM   #22
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Refer to Babcock post # 16

This was the same thought I had, now to address the second issue the author presented: how long will it take it recharge from the coffee pot load with a 320 Watt panel?

A perfect setup of a 320 Watt panel will produce 23 Amp/Hour so the panels should recharge the coffee pot drain in about 2 hours. Note: This is everything perfect - cool air, full sun, low resistance loss in the cables, good controller, etc.
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Old 08-03-2017, 01:50 PM   #23
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This is just simple math...and having a decent tool to help with Ohm's law.

Start here:
Your coffee pot has a power consumption number in watts. It's printed on a "data plate" somewhere on the coffee maker. For argument's sake, let's say it's 1000 watts.

Plug 1000 watts and 12 volts into this calculator (you are ultimately converting 12 volts to 120 volts, so it's the 12-volt number that counts.)
Voltage current resistance and electric power general basic electrical formulas mathematical calculations calculator formula for power calculating energy work equation power law watts understandimg general electrical pie chart electricity calculation
I get about 84 amps.
And you know that's about right, because your 2KW inverter is connected to the battery with 00 AWG or similar sized cable...it's huge wire to handle the current.

Your battery is rated in amp-hours. How many amps can it deliver for an hour? And/or how many hours can it deliver a lower number of amps?

Let's assume your battery bank (2 x 6-volt batteries) is rated for 150 amp-hours. Your batteries should have a label stating their capacities. A basic, 12-volt group 24 delivers between about 70 and 80 amp-hours, so 2 x 6-volts can probably double that...but your batteries will tell you for sure.

As a crude rule of thumb, your batteries could reasonably deliver about half their rated amp-hours before being technically "dead" without damaging them. In a 12-volt battery, fully discharged is 10.5 volts. Anything more can damage the battery.

With these assumptions, you have approximately 75 amp-hours to work with. As you can see, your coffee pot will drain your batteries if it's on for about one hour.

The coffee maker needs 84 amps, but for less than an hour. Let's say that the coffee makers needs 10 minutes to brew a pot at full rated power. 10 minutes out of an hour is 1/6 hour x 84 = 14 amp-hours. Obviously, if the coffee maker needs 12 minutes instead of 10, that's a big difference in very precious "amp-minutes". Clean it with vinegar.

Now lets say that you leave the coffee maker on for another 10 minutes to keep the pot warm. Let's also assume that the warming plate needs just 500 watts, or 42 amps at 12 volts. (Let's also assume the water heater portion of the pot shuts off once the water has run through it...perhaps a big assumption for a cheap appliance meant to hook to an "infinite" power supply--the grid.) That's at least 7 more amp hours--possibly 14. You see where this is going.
Altogether, you've used 21 (or 28) amp-hours out of a potential 75. That pot of coffee is pretty expensive in amp-hours.

Now, let's assume you drink coffee ONLY in the morning so the solar panels have all day to top off the batteries for things like the furnace, hot water heater igniter, fridge igniter, and water pump...and lights, TV, radio, etc. Under decent solar gain conditions, your daytime use will be replenished as you consume it. Unless you're a profligate power user during the day, your 350-380 watt solar array should not only sustain all daytime use but also produce enough surplus to fully charge your batteries. You should hit a point about 2 or 3 hours before local sundown (solar panels shadowed by trees, etc.) where your batteries are full. You may have a solar charge controller that reports the status of your batteries (mine does).

You consume (deplete) 12 volt power all evening and night (when the sun's down) - to run appliances and lights and arrive at morning, desperately needing coffee, a toilet flush or two, some ignitions of the hot water heater, and pump draws (at least one to fill the pot!! ) - with what's left. If you MUST watch TV all evening, keep all the lights on, and so on, you'll need to do the math on all those draws before you know what you'll have left in the battery bank for the morning. For example, in a PUP, the furnace draws about 2.5 amp hours for the fan and igniter. With a 50% duty cycle overnight, that might come to 10 amp-hours or so. A central, ducted furnace will consume more, because the fan that pushes air throughout the living space needs three times more power.

Will you have 21 amp-hours left in your battery bank? Very likely you will if you are careful with power through the previous evening. But if you aren't careful, you may not have even the 14 amp-hours needed to brew the pot.

Plug in real numbers and do your math...on all your draws.

In the meantime, if you don't have one already, trade in your current coffee pot for one with an insulated carafe. Then you can cut 7 to 14 amp-hours off your consumption by not running a warming plate. You need only brew, then turn off the inverter.

You mentioned a generator, so it's not as if you'll go without your coffee, but over-discharging your batteries can be hard on them, and if the solar can't fully recharge them to "saturation," you might get sulfation...a common problem for solar charged battery banks that never see "shore power." If you deplete the batteries, I'd bite the bullet and run the generator to recharge them for 3 or 4 hours and let the solar top them off.

Or, so you can have it all on power use, you can add two more batteries. Bear in mind, however, that adding two new batteries to supplement two "old" batteries is not recommended. Ideally, you'd install 4 identical new batteries all at the same time. If you just add two, the old ones will "drag down" the new ones somewhat. Ask a battery expert which of the two should be in series and then which in parallel to get the best performance.

In the meantime, have you considered French Press? We make espresso/lattes in our PUP using the generator, then we make our second cup with the French Press. It's a little chewy at the bottom, but it's really good coffee!

We have a 2 KW generator, and I hate the noise. We only run it to make coffee! When we boondock, I use a 100' 12-3 lead cord (good for the 15 amps +/- the generator delivers) to move the generator away from the PUP. We lock it to a tree with a 1/4" case hardened chain and locks. The inverse square law says that if you double the distance the sound energy (SPL in dB at the rated distance) is reduced by a factor of 4. Physics works. Distance substantially reduces the noise--and you might be able to use an obstruction (hill or embankment) to further reduce the noise. ...as long as you don't have close neighbors.
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Old 08-03-2017, 02:08 PM   #24
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We use a french press. Just boil water on the stove.
Agreed. This was our answer.

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Old 08-03-2017, 03:10 PM   #25
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Assume your batteries are rated at 225 Amp hours so with 2 batteries you have a total of 450 Amp hours. Your coffee maker is 900 amps.
Watts = volts x amps
Amps = 900/12 = 75
450/75 = 6 hours total runtime for your coffee maker
You never want to drop your batteries below 50 % if you want them to last.
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Old 08-03-2017, 03:47 PM   #26
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We switched to a stovetop percolator. However, if I hear others running the genny for coffee, I will prefer cranking mine up. Stovetop takes 4 times as long for some reason. They give us **** burners in the stoves.
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Old 08-03-2017, 03:51 PM   #27
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Have you tried cold brew? A cup of coarse ground coffee in a quart of water. Stick it in the fridge for 10 to 12 hours and strain. You will have a coffee concentrate that you mix with water about 1 to 3 ore 1 to 4 depending on taste. Drink iced or heat in microwave. You have all of the coffee flavor and none of the bitterness. Try it. I bet you like it.
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Old 08-03-2017, 03:54 PM   #28
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You can run a Keurig off two. I do it all the time.
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Old 08-03-2017, 07:35 PM   #29
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You can run a Keurig off two. I do it all the time.


Thanks I'm looking for an inverter for the same thing, some long explanations here but the Keurig is only on for three minutes to get up to temp to make a cup and peaks at 1500 watts. If you leave on idle it uses 60 watts when not heating. (from Keurigs website) I've been firing up the genny for 10 minutes in the morning to make coffee. I also have one of those Keurig hand presses for emergencies that works pretty well. [emoji3]
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Old 08-03-2017, 07:41 PM   #30
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Thanks I'm looking for an inverter for the same thing, some long explanations here but the Keurig is only on for three minutes to get up to temp to make a cup and peaks at 1500 watts. If you leave on idle it uses 60 watts when not heating. (from Keurigs website) I've been firing up the genny for 10 minutes in the morning to make coffee. I also have one of those Keurig hand presses for emergencies that works pretty well. [emoji3]


I have the single cup which uses zero watts on idle, but I unplug it anyway. I also have an inverter switch which cuts power to the inverter.

My new 300 watt inverter is on a separate switch and has a dedicated outlet.
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Old 08-03-2017, 07:50 PM   #31
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Coffee on batteries

I have two 6 volt batteries and a 2000watt inverter and can do about three pots of coffee before I get down to the 50% level on the batteries. Would love to add the solar but it's not in the budget yet. The math says the solar you have should recharge the batteries on sunny days, but don't know where you camp.
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Old 08-03-2017, 08:08 PM   #32
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Good discussion with some excellent technical information. My take is, if you want to go the 120V / inverter route, do it. However, the costs for producing the 120v power will be high. Batteries are not in the same category for energy density as fossil fuels (yet!). We have a 300 watt inverter for television and charging various small devices and use propane for everything else but 12v lights and fans. This lets us get by on one 12v deep cycle and a 100 watt solar panel.
I gotta have my coffee, but there are many propane fueled alternatives. We have an old school camp percolator, a French press, and as mentioned above cowboy coffee is not that big a deal to make.
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Old 08-03-2017, 09:02 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by kirkwilliams2049 View Post
Assume your batteries are rated at 225 Amp hours so with 2 batteries you have a total of 450 Amp hours. Your coffee maker is 900 amps.
Watts = volts x amps
Amps = 900/12 = 75
450/75 = 6 hours total runtime for your coffee maker
You never wa nt to drop your batteries below 50 % if you want them to last.
This is wrong because the 450 amp hours is a 20 hour rating which means the battery bank can deliver 22.5 amps for 20 hours. If you try pulling out 75 amps instead of 22.5 amps...you will end up with dead battery bank a lot sooner than 6 hours per Mr. Peukart and his constant.

"
....As such, it can be useful to reformulate the law to a known capacity and discharge rate:
where:
is the rated discharge time (in hours),
is the rated capacity at that discharge rate (in ampere hours),
is the actual discharge current (in amperes),
is the Peukert constant (dimensionless),
is the actual time to discharge the battery (in hours).

Eyeballing a 22.5 H battery with an I of 75 and a C of 450 and a k of 1.25 (wet cell) ...I'm guessing half the time...since my math sucks...but anyone with a good scientific calc who knows how to use it should be able to be more precise.

(FWIW...this is another function of the Victron and Trimetric true battery monitors...they apply Mr. Peukart to whatever the battery draw of the moment is and during set up you enter the proper constant for your battery type and the capacity of the bank. Once that is set up you will know what time and capacity your battery has left at the current rate of current draw.)
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Old 08-03-2017, 09:10 PM   #34
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The above formula proves that by asking a simple question you will always receive an answer that is way complicated and really doesn't answer the question in the first place.

The answer is no, you don't need that much battery power to brew a cup of coffee. You actually don't need any battery power at all to brew a cup of coffee.
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Old 08-03-2017, 09:29 PM   #35
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I have two 6 volt batteries and a 2000watt inverter and can do about three pots of coffee before I get down to the 50% level on the batteries. Would love to add the solar but it's not in the budget yet. The math says the solar you have should recharge the batteries on sunny days, but don't know where you camp.
Actually...you may only expect around 80 amphours to be replenished on average by a 320 amp solar bank. The math is compounded by reality which :

means you only get the equivilent of 6 hours of full direct sunlight on fixed panels.
means you can't believe the ratings of wattage which averages about 10% less or lots more if the temps are higher or the airflow is insufficient.
means that shading and clouds loss of output must be accounted for
means that there are significant losses from 17.5V (or so) panel voltages at peak output down to 13.5V or so to be usable by the batteries.

Best practice is to figure out daily use with a monitor...then buy 4x times that in solar wattage.
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Old 08-03-2017, 09:53 PM   #36
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The above formula proves that by asking a simple question you will always receive an answer that is way complicated and really doesn't answer the question in the first place.

The answer is no, you don't need that much battery power to brew a cup of coffee. You actually don't need any battery power at all to brew a cup of coffee.
True...but your answer doesn't answer the question posed by the OP who I would assume is not a complete idiot who doesn't know how propane works.
My comment was directed not to the OP but to someone who was providing advice that could easily damage a battery bank if not corrected.

I would assume the OP got the answers he needed earlier in the thread...and that they didn't involve propane or firewood.
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Old 08-03-2017, 10:07 PM   #37
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coffee

I don't see a problem. I only have 2 6v batt and 200w solar and I use a 4 cup electric to brew several pots a day. Also use toaster and microwave. Never have a problem. use then turn off. Just don't try a hair dryer, they are banned in my trailer. Mostly boondock.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:41 AM   #38
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My theory....
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Old 08-04-2017, 08:39 AM   #39
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I have 4 6v batteries and a 2000w inverter. It allows early morning use of microwave and coffee maker without disturbing other campers.

One of the important factors going this route, is to make sure you mount the inverter as close as possible to the batteries and use the shortest length of high amperage cable as possible. I used a 3' length of thick welding cable from inverter to batteries. The amp draw is very high, with a 250amp fuse between batteries and inverter.

The larger the battery bank, the easier the inverter will have dealing with the sudden high amp draw and temporary surge drop in battery voltage.
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Old 08-04-2017, 09:15 AM   #40
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You can get a pretty rough "back of the envelope" estimate without bringing in Peukert's constant. LOL I am an electrical engineer and wouldn't even bother bringing in this stuff.
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