Feedback on lithium batteries. Any heat issues?

VailDan · 02-08-2021, 01:57 PM

I had read a lot of reviews that said that good LiFePO4 batteries like the battle-born are typically great. I know they cost a ridiculous amount and really need to be kept warm and inside the camper, but I had not heard of a lot issues. I am about to buy a travel trailer and was going to buy lithium just because they sounded easier to manage and charge with solar, etc and a dealer told me that there are a lot of over-heating issues with lithium batteries in RVs. Not trying to start a battery debate, but purely trying to find out if reputable LiFePO4 batteries are causing some issues with a decent amount of sample size, or not.

**ependydad** · 02-08-2021, 02:04 PM

I have a temperature probe with my Victron BMV. It only measures one of the four batteries, but I've never seen anything exceptional out of it. I also put a smoke detector in that compartment (front bay of a fifth wheel) and it's never been set off.

TitanMike · 02-08-2021, 09:53 PM

I have ZERO heat issues with my two battleborns. My battery monitor has heat sensor and batteries are very close to interior temp of my TT.

Only time they need to be heated is when charging in cold weather. Since they are mounted inside they get heated when the TT is in use. I don't charge them when not using trailer.

Sorry but the guy who claimed they have heating problems has little knowledge in LiFePo4 batteries. In order for heat to be generated in a battery it has to have internal resistance. LiFePo4 batteries have extremely low internal resistance which contributes to their benefits.

Hclarkx · 02-09-2021, 01:56 AM

Both AGM and LiFePo4 batteries don't like to get too hot or too cold. The reasons are different, but the temperatures they don't like are about the same. Keep them above freezing and below about 120-130F and all is well.

A difference between AGM (or any lead acid) is that it will heat up when used (mostly during discharge but also to some extent when being charged) while an LiFePo4 will not. So using an AGM helps keep it warm in winter. Using an LiFePo4 does not.

Batteries have mass and it takes time to warm them or cool them. I've had my LiFePo4, in an unheated hatch, only get down into the 40's on 23F nights so long as the days are warmer. Batteries on a trailer tongue would be more exposed and could be a problem in really cold weather. But, with any protection from the cold at all, it takes some very cold weather to be a problem. Still, it's wise to keep an eye on them if you will camp or store in below freezing weather.

01tundra · 02-09-2021, 08:11 AM

You were talking to an RV dealer who spouted this load of BS?

Ours have been in the bottom of our pantry for over a year and have never been anything but ambient temperature.

dustman_stx · 02-09-2021, 08:29 AM

Per the BattleBorn website:

“ Battle Born Batteries protect themselves from charging in cold temperatures and won’t accept a charge once the internal cell temperature drops to 24°F. At this point they will continue to discharge even down to -4°F. At this temperature we recommend no longer pulling power to avoid damaging the batteries.

Insulated battery boxes, heating blankets, and placing your battery bank inside your RV will help keep the temperature stable. On the high end of temperature range, the batteries will shut down once 135°F is reached.”

TitanMike · 02-09-2021, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

Per the BattleBorn website:

“ Battle Born Batteries protect themselves from charging in cold temperatures and won’t accept a charge once the internal cell temperature drops to 24°F. At this point they will continue to discharge even down to -4°F. At this temperature we recommend no longer pulling power to avoid damaging the batteries.

Insulated battery boxes, heating blankets, and placing your battery bank inside your RV will help keep the temperature stable. On the high end of temperature range, the batteries will shut down once 135°F is reached.”

Assuming the Dealer wasn't totally ignorant (perhaps a stretch) he may have been referring to the need for heat if batteries needed to be charged in a freezing environment. In his mind that could be a "heating issue. Then again---------

NJKris · 02-09-2021, 03:52 PM

I've only been exposed to one RV salesman, and some old guy tasked with giving me my orientation walk-through. Neither impressed me with their knowledge of any details. For that, I rely on this forum, which I refer to as The Genius Bar.

**Why isn't anyone participating in poll? I just checked it, zero votes.

TitanMike · 02-09-2021, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJKris

I've only been exposed to one RV salesman, and some old guy tasked with giving me my orientation walk-through. Neither impressed me with their knowledge of any details. For that, I rely on this forum, which I refer to as The Genius Bar.

**Why isn't anyone participating in poll? I just checked it, zero votes.

Didn't notice it. I voted so maybe it will start a trend.

mlmay12 · 02-09-2021, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 01tundra

You were talking to an RV dealer who spouted this load of BS?

Ours have been in the bottom of our pantry for over a year and have never been anything but ambient temperature.

My two Battleborns are going on 3 years and have performed flawlessly. I have camped down to 20 degrees with no issues. Mine are mounted in the stepwell so they get some heat from the interior of motorhome. They don't even get warm when discharging at 1200W for an hour when I tested them with an electric heater plugged into my 2K Inverter.

VailDan · 02-09-2021, 09:29 PM

Thanks Guys - I really thought he was full of BS and mentioned that the batteries were almost a perfect 5 star on Amazon, but he made it sound like some companies had inflated the reviews and this was known info, so I had to check.

TitanMike · 02-09-2021, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VailDan

Thanks Guys - I really thought he was full of BS and mentioned that the batteries were almost a perfect 5 star on Amazon, but he made it sound like some companies had inflated the reviews and this was known info, so I had to check.

Check this Video out. A tour of their factory in Sparks, NV

They put a lot into their batteries to make what they feel is a top of the line battery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnINTNfN7u4

Hclarkx · 02-10-2021, 02:43 AM

It's hard to overstate the benefits of LiFePO4 and the downsides are minor unless you camp in freezing weather a lot (though lead-acid batteries don't like the cold either). And now with good LiFePO4 100 Ah down under $600 per 100 Ah (SOK) the decision is even easier.

My son is doing a DIY 840 Ah LiFePO4 setup for under $1800 (280 Ah cells plus BMS). The drop-ins are still over priced even at under $600.

01tundra · 02-10-2021, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hclarkx

It's hard to overstate the benefits of LiFePO4 and the downsides are minor unless you camp in freezing weather a lot (though lead-acid batteries don't like the cold either). And now with good LiFePO4 100 Ah down under $600 per 100 Ah (SOK) the decision is even easier.

My son is doing a DIY 840 Ah LiFePO4 setup for under $1800 (280 Ah cells plus BMS). The drop-ins are still over priced even at under $600.

And now a lot of companies are addressing the low temperature issue, BattleBorn recently jumped on the wagon with a heated battery option.

TomAR · 02-10-2021, 08:37 AM

LOVE 'EM! Adding heating pads makes it a busy battery box. Maybe in 8-10 years I'll upgrad to the internal heaters.

NJKris · 02-10-2021, 10:59 AM

Holy smokes, between your batts and that box, cables, and buses, gotta be three THOUSAND dollar power pack!

TomAR · 02-10-2021, 11:40 AM

including LI-BIM, LI-converter, Victron BMS, yup, $3k. With over 10 year life expectancy = $300/yr. Peace of mind = PRICELESS!!

WanderMore · 02-10-2021, 12:09 PM

There is a potential to generate heat from the batteries if you attempt to pull more current from them than they are rated for. Many, but not all, batteries that are LiFePO4 can charge and discharge at a C1 rate. Basically what this means is if you have a 100aH rated battery then you can safely pull 100 amps out of it as well as charge it at that rate.

If you were to hook that one 100aH battery to a 2000 watt inverter you could pull more than 100 amps from the battery under a full load. That may cause the battery, as a system, to start to get a little warm.

Not all batteries are created equal. Some may have marginally sized internal wires, connectors, etc. Some may not have cells that are rated for a C1 charge/discharge rate.

Now, most specs do have an engineering “conservative” factor to account for variations in component tolerances but the inverter (any inverter) is not 100% efficient so you would have factor that into your calculations.

One of the most informative (and entertaining) sources of info on this subject can be found at:

https://youtube.com/c/WillProwse

TitanMike · 02-10-2021, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanderMore

There is a potential to generate heat from the batteries if you attempt to pull more current from them than they are rated for. Many, but not all, batteries that are LiFePO4 can charge and discharge at a C1 rate. Basically what this means is if you have a 100aH rated battery then you can safely pull 100 amps out of it as well as charge it at that rate.

If you were to hook that one 100aH battery to a 2000 watt inverter you could pull more than 100 amps from the battery under a full load. That may cause the battery, as a system, to start to get a little warm.

Not all batteries are created equal. Some may have marginally sized internal wires, connectors, etc. Some may not have cells that are rated for a C1 charge/discharge rate.

Now, most specs do have an engineering “conservative” factor to account for variations in component tolerances but the inverter (any inverter) is not 100% efficient so you would have factor that into your calculations.

One of the most informative (and entertaining) sources of info on this subject can be found at:

https://youtube.com/c/WillProwse

Be sure to check the mfr's specs on charge rate. Battleborn states clearly a .5 C rate for charging and a 1C for discharge.

A pair of BB batteries (and I'm sure that most drop-ins are similar) can be charged at a 1C rate but not a single battery.

As for "Cold Weather Camping" not so sure I see the big problem there. If the batteries are installed in a heated inside space, and the "campers aren't freezing", neither are the batteries.

It was around 20 degrees this AM at my house. I keep a heater on in the TT as a matter of preference. Heater is set to keep interior at 50-55 degrees (an oil filled radiator set on medium). Battery temp when I checked this AM via Bluetooth to my Victron Monitor was 46 degrees. Batteries are in a corner compartment that does get a little colder than the rest of the TT but clearly warm enough to charge if I needed/wanted to.

That said, if one has the LiFePo4 batteries installed on the tongue or in an unheated area exposed to the elements, to me lack of heat is down the list. The valuable batteries are more vulnerable to theft as well as all kinds of road dirt/dust/wet/etc.

Comanchecreek · 02-10-2021, 01:26 PM

My suggestion to you would be to check out the many YouTubes on the subject of LiFePo4 batteries. Will Prowse likes to cut them open, and gives a lot of insight into their various types of construction and their potential to last or fail. I just converted from 4 6volt golf carts to 2 Battleborns. Haven't had the opportunity to test them out yet, but plan to do some dry camping in the spring, barring unforeseen complications. I periodically Google Battleborns to check out the prices. So far they seem to be holding at $899. Northern Solar in Arizona had a sale on them for $845 that I jumped on, but haven't seen it since. I bought two, but am now thinking of adding one or two more. Couple them with a decent solar setup, and an Inverter, and you should be a happy camper.

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