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Old 10-18-2016, 09:26 AM   #41
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To much thought involved in using a manual screw driver
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:33 AM   #42
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We have the same connections in our trucks we build here at work and never have problems because we check them by multiple people so I won't give forest River any benefit of the doubt on this one they where 110% Negligent on this issue. They need to stand behind their mistake and make me happy and comfortable, a broken blind faulty dripping faucet is one thing but something like this, this is complete negligence. Isn't the customer always right? Oh wait after they get your money it is a tail light warranty and your stuck with a rebuilt rebuilt rebuilt POS it seams. Sorry very upset they could have killed us and or our Pets who are always in the camper while we are at the water out of the heat.
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:44 AM   #43
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FirstPuma ... SO understand !!!!

Our "previous" camper was a 1994 (Built november 1993) Veri-Lite Truck Camper ("TC") and served us fabulously. Ultimately we had to dis-assemble it for disposal, and learned ... "A Lot" in the process.

Twenty-plus years ago, the craftsmanship was a little more rugged and reliable ... the materials also heavier ... seemed like more attention to detail at construction time.

Our present is a 2015 Tracer 235 that we purchased new are quite pleased with, but with the passage of those years and our own aging, expecations tempered. It is as if the "children" of the previous craftsmen build the modern ones, and ... their fathers might not be so proud. We both work in corporate so we have seen what the drive for the allmighty dollar has done to ... a lot of things, not to the positive.

The thought and engineering is still there, the execution ... well, we are glad we are not in positions where we have to find and hire talent.

AND So we take a lot of the "fix" on ourselves, and know that it's fixed right.

Again, NOT making any excuse for what you found, and very much agree, those neutrals (and what else is hidden ?) are very real safety issues.

"Maybe" trying to work with factory on a keep-it-friendly basis could produce a result ? We read all the stories out here about dealer suport issues and are glad we don't have to go that route. Some people are lucky to have great dealers but that is not always the story.
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:34 AM   #44
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Twenty-plus years ago, the craftsmanship was a little more rugged and reliable ... the materials also heavier ... seemed like more attention to detail at construction time.
It is as if the "children" of the previous craftsmen build the modern ones, and ... their fathers might not be so proud. We both work in corporate so we have seen what the drive for the allmighty dollar has done to ... a lot of things, not to the positive.

The thought and engineering is still there, the execution ...
Exactly. I might get blasted for this, but the current generation of workers do not have the same work ethics that people of my generation have. I was born in 1950 and I think they just call us the baby boomers, not gen something. Anyway, I always took a lot of pride in whatever I did and I would be terribly disappointed in myself if I did anything less than perfect. Once I moved into management and hiring, I found the older employees usually worked more diligently than the younger ones.
There was a time when "good enough for government work" meant something could pass a rigorous inspection. Now it means that it is slipshod, but just barely acceptable.
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:38 AM   #45
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True story
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:57 AM   #46
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Oh heck yeah I agree people now days want everything for nothing no work ethic pride nothing. Just want a paycheck and could care less on what they do. That shows when High school dropouts want better pay than what I got my first year out of Michigan Technological University. It is crazy, and they are not worth it because they think they deserve it don't have any feeling of earning it.

Short update....
Camper is going back to the Factory to be fixed sometime this week. They tried to tell me it passed all the electrical checks, I told him maybe he should take a look at the camper before anyone touches it because there is no way this should have passed any load testing or resistance testing with the loose connections. Going to take some time still before I will be able to sleep soundly in that thing when it gets back this I know.
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Old 10-18-2016, 12:14 PM   #47
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I think we're putting on some rose-colored glasses here. I worked a number of blue-collar, low wage jobs early in my life (late '60s, early '70s). I saw the guys (and gals) who literally could not start their shift without 3 cups of coffee. Or were badly hung over, or worse. The worst were the alcoholics with the "shakes".

But even with all these issues (and this includes today's young people), I can safely say the number of people who come to work with the intention of doing crummy work can be counted on one hand. Some, because of their issues, are unable to do good work, but the crap work is not intentional.

So where does it go wrong? The factory floor is the problem, where management has got the incentives all wrong. Quality (and safety) have to be more than just words with management and the foreman - and they rarely are.

If things are going wrong, does the electrician have not the only the right, but the management expectation that he will stop the assembly line to fix the problem? Does the electrician really believe that his stopping the line to fix a problem will be rewarded, and not punished? That is exactly what it takes to have a quality product.

We all bemoan the lack of wiring or plumbing diagrams for our RVs. Which tells me the electrician or the plumber on the line doesn't have useful drawings to work from either. I can see from examining the wiring on my unit that the "electrician" doing the wiring had to splice in extra wire lengths because the wire he was furnished was too short. Again, when was the assembly wire supply list updated to reflect the changes over previous models? I was fortunate - my unit had all correct wire gauges for the loads and was correctly color-coded. And everything electrical worked, even though the see-thru wire nuts didn't looked like the wires actually touched inside.

There is also no management effort to ensure supplier quality. Dometic ships fridges with installation kits to Rockwood. The vents in those installation kits couldn't pass wind in a hurricane, much less ventilate the cooling coils while the camper is parked. Forest River and dealers know this causes poor fridge performance. But has Dometic ever been asked to improve the design of their vents?

WFCO converters are known to have a high rate of failure of performing to spec. What attempts have been made to get WFCO to improve their converters?

Quality (and safety) start from the top. Management needs to believe and take action. But it's easier to blame the workers or the age of the workers.

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Old 10-18-2016, 12:18 PM   #48
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Where do we fill out an app?
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Old 10-18-2016, 01:40 PM   #49
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Short update....
Camper is going back to the Factory to be fixed sometime this week. They tried to tell me it passed all the electrical checks, I told him maybe he should take a look at the camper before anyone touches it because there is no way this should have passed any load testing or resistance testing with the loose connections. Going to take some time still before I will be able to sleep soundly in that thing when it gets back this I know.
Thats great take plenty of pics before you let them work on it. Keep us posted on the outcome.
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Old 10-18-2016, 01:46 PM   #50
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Seadog you think just like me that is for sure... Was going to walk through lots of Pics and video so I don't miss anything at all. Will be sleeping with a Fire extinguisher next to my bed for quite some time when it gets back if I can even sleep. I keep thinking back to how many times my kids went back to the camper to sleep because they were tired and this thing could have gone up in flames without me their. Bugs the living crap out of me...
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Old 10-18-2016, 01:52 PM   #51
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Will be sleeping with a Fire extinguisher next to my bed for quite some time when it gets back if I can even sleep.
I have always had a 10 pound fire extinguisher next to my side of the bed. The little fire extinguisher that comes with an RV is about useless.
Besides, there's no way to get out of the little emergency window in the bedroom and I always figured I would be fighting my way out with the fire extinguisher.
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Old 10-18-2016, 02:33 PM   #52
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One method no one mentioned is the twisted wire nuts. Often hidden behind partitions or in junction boxes, if assembled improperly, are a major starting point for fire in enclosed spaces. One member Charlie had a major fire in his GT 378. He searched out all the ac cables and found loose junctures all over the coach. I have found in home and Marine applications. Just sayin unlike terminal strips, these are much less obvious till they breakout. Look for the yellow cable with sloppy black tape, or multiple yellow cables entering a plastic box.
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Old 10-18-2016, 03:27 PM   #53
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Exactly. I might get blasted for this, but the current generation of workers do not have the same work ethics that people of my generation have. I was born in 1950 and I think they just call us the baby boomers, not gen something. Anyway, I always took a lot of pride in whatever I did and I would be terribly disappointed in myself if I did anything less than perfect. Once I moved into management and hiring, I found the older employees usually worked more diligently than the younger ones.

There was a time when "good enough for government work" meant something could pass a rigorous inspection. Now it means that it is slipshod, but just barely acceptable.

And they showed up for work sober(well most of them).


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Old 10-18-2016, 04:06 PM   #54
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I think the current working and marriage situations for many young men and women just melts away the incentives. No, I am not gonna explain myself...don't need my comments deleted.
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Old 10-18-2016, 04:48 PM   #55
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No worries I'm deleting anything been a fun and interesting to talk with you all.
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Old 10-18-2016, 06:15 PM   #56
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On our 2017 Roo they tightened down all the screws on the neutral and ground bars and breakers so tight they stripped out the heads of the screws. They must have used a #2 square drive bit in a cordless impact driver. They smashed the conductors so flat that they would break at the slightest movement. When I swapped the guts of the DC side of WFCO converter to a Boondocker, I could not get the breaker lug loose and ended up having to toss it in the can. I ended up replacing all the breakers and bars on the AC side. I should of pushed Rockwood for reimbursement. Its a shame they ship this garbage.
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:48 PM   #57
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If you remain stuck on that kind of comparison, you will never be happy owning an RV. The manufacturing, design, parts, customization, and use of a car is not comparable to an RV.
I do not understand why using off the shelf wire & connectors from the automotive world would not work in RV use. I have worked on and built automotive systems that pass the equivalent of 50,000 mile durability tests when the vehicle is operated at well over 100% of its normal operating conditions, so I know what it takes to make something work for the projected life of a vehicle and it doesn't cost an arm & a leg either.
But you are correct. RVs are not designed or built to function for more than a few years and a few thousand miles. The RV company doesn't care about the cost of poor quality because they wash their hands of their products and "workmanship" almost the moment the unit is driven off the dealer lot.
To my knowledge there isn't an RV made that has a warranty that "Detroit" had in 1980 and it has been pointed out what can be done when a car company takes quality seriously.
I would have paid $1,000 more for my RV if it came with a 4 year bumper to bumper warranty that I knew would be fixed in a few days (not weeks or months) at a local dealership while I had a loaner made available for my use.
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:58 PM   #58
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If this happened after a couple years I would say maybe it vibrates loose. But this was blatant negligence. We put the same connectors in our truck because they have generators on the shore lines etc. And we have NEVER had an issue like this. I'm sorry but no defending Forest Rivers lack of quality here it is like I said full on negligence.

Tried the App should have pics now.

I would send copies of those pictures to RVIA and ask them how your RV was certified to carry their sticker (that you paid for) as being built to their safety standards.

I would also send the pictures to NHTSA and ask if they care about this type of failure. You could have had a fire while the RV was occupied or even driving down the road and then there might have been fatalities. They have forced recalls on car companies for electrical system faults.
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Old 10-19-2016, 04:00 AM   #59
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I would send copies of those pictures to RVIA and ask them how your RV was certified to carry their sticker (that you paid for) as being built to their safety standards.

Good luck with that.

The RVIA could care less about anything being built to any standard. They are in bed with the companies they claim to keep a watchful eye over. A total joke. Greg Gerber at RV Daily Report hits the nail on the head about RVIA in his recent 6 part story about the entire RV Industry and its "issues".

Its the Recreational Vehicle INDUSTRY Association, not the Recreational Vehicle PURCHASER Association.

Although I've seen and know some great ones, I've seen my share of "RVIA certified" techs who were total hacks. Just because you get a certificate for answering a few multiple choice questions means nothing just like slapping some silver sticker on the side of these crappy products means nothing.
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Old 10-19-2016, 05:26 AM   #60
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I did send it to the NHTSA I work in the auto industry and was the first place after Forest River it was sent.
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