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Old 10-19-2016, 05:38 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by VinceU View Post
One method no one mentioned is the twisted wire nuts. Often hidden behind partitions or in junction boxes, if assembled improperly, are a major starting point for fire in enclosed spaces. One member Charlie had a major fire in his GT 378. He searched out all the ac cables and found loose junctures all over the coach. I have found in home and Marine applications. Just sayin unlike terminal strips, these are much less obvious till they breakout. Look for the yellow cable with sloppy black tape, or multiple yellow cables entering a plastic box.
Twisted wire nuts should never be used in an RV. Vibration will shake them loose and the wire is rarely twisted together.
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Old 10-19-2016, 09:46 AM   #62
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Good luck with that.

The RVIA could care less about anything being built to any standard. They are in bed with the companies they claim to keep a watchful eye over. A total joke. Greg Gerber at RV Daily Report hits the nail on the head about RVIA in his recent 6 part story about the entire RV Industry and its "issues".

Its the Recreational Vehicle INDUSTRY Association, not the Recreational Vehicle PURCHASER Association.

Although I've seen and know some great ones, I've seen my share of "RVIA certified" techs who were total hacks. Just because you get a certificate for answering a few multiple choice questions means nothing just like slapping some silver sticker on the side of these crappy products means nothing.
I understand and share your opinion of RVIA but since they charge for the sticker that is suppose to certify the unit complies with certain safety standards I think that people that have problems should start complaining to RVIA and asking for a refund of the $$$ we the owners are paying since RVIA appears to be meaningless. I have even seen some RV advertise "RVIA" certified. Wonder what would happen if we started telling the dealers we were not interested in paying for a sticker that had no meaning. I am not aware of any government requirement to have a sticker.

Wonder if anyone has looked into small claims court solution to having an RV that didn't meet the standards. The sticker is IMO a form of contract of the RV meeting some standards.
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Old 10-19-2016, 09:55 AM   #63
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"Just because you get a certificate for answering a few multiple choice questions means nothing just like slapping some silver sticker on the side of these crappy products means nothing."

The training I took was detailed, extensive, and in my opinion excellent. I was also required to submit sign-offs from other technicians after demonstrating my technical skillls. The tests, plural, were very difficult and required extensive knowledge.

I spent about a year and a half of my retirement to qualify myself, studying an enormous number of hours, and working at a local rental RV dealership at age 64 when I started it to gain hands on experience. Subsequently I also earned my RV inspectors certification and use it as an extended warranty inspector.

I will agree that anyone can submit fraudulent signoffs or have someone else attempt to take the test for them.

I also agree with Gerber and have read all his articles.

I also agree that there are a lot of crappy products.

However, I do enjoy these B & M posts tremendously that change nothing, but must feel good I suppose.
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Old 10-19-2016, 10:52 AM   #64
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You are correct changed nothing but did make others informed of negligence that happens and to check in the future and question when they buy a forest river product. It was funny because forest river told me this is the first time for this in 14 years. I call BS based on everyone's comments and a little research online that he said is basically people posting anything they want. Well sorry forest river this one is on you and in a couple days will have it to rub your electricians nose in he about killed or harmed a family of 5.
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Old 10-19-2016, 01:32 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by CedarCreekWoody View Post
Twisted wire nuts should never be used in an RV. Vibration will shake them loose and the wire is rarely twisted together.
My unit used crimped clear wire nuts. But the wires were not twisted together.

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Old 10-27-2016, 11:10 AM   #66
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"Just because you get a certificate for answering a few multiple choice questions means nothing just like slapping some silver sticker on the side of these crappy products means nothing."

The training I took was detailed, extensive, and in my opinion excellent. I was also required to submit sign-offs from other technicians after demonstrating my technical skillls. The tests, plural, were very difficult and required extensive knowledge.

I spent about a year and a half of my retirement to qualify myself, studying an enormous number of hours, and working at a local rental RV dealership at age 64 when I started it to gain hands on experience. Subsequently I also earned my RV inspectors certification and use it as an extended warranty inspector.

I will agree that anyone can submit fraudulent signoffs or have someone else attempt to take the test for them.

I also agree with Gerber and have read all his articles.

I also agree that there are a lot of crappy products.

However, I do enjoy these B & M posts tremendously that change nothing, but must feel good I suppose.
In your training did you ever see anything on what RVIA considers a "safe and proper" electrical connection for 12v application and/or a 120v application?

I have contacted DOT/NHTSA and am looking for the appropriate federal safety standards. I will post what I learn after they respond to my request.
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:43 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Tireman9 View Post
In your training did you ever see anything on what RVIA considers a "safe and proper" electrical connection for 12v application and/or a 120v application?

I have contacted DOT/NHTSA and am looking for the appropriate federal safety standards. I will post what I learn after they respond to my request.

Those are traffic standards, you need NEC rules (Nation Electric Code) a subset of National Fire Protection Association, both are Federal regulations with lawful enforcement.
RVIA is more like a club who's suggestions based on NFPA and NEC rules as published. They provide "stricter inspection" during build for the "sticker"
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Old 10-28-2016, 10:30 AM   #68
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Those are traffic standards, you need NEC rules (Nation Electric Code) a subset of National Fire Protection Association, both are Federal regulations with lawful enforcement.
RVIA is more like a club who's suggestions based on NFPA and NEC rules as published. They provide "stricter inspection" during build for the "sticker"
Not quite, NHTSA publishes and enforces safety requirements and standards on a number of motor vehicle systems such as tires, seat belts & child seats. They have the authority to enforce those standards force product recalls and issue fines for non-compliance. They also accumulate complaints and do investigations.

I took a look at NFPA and NES. I didn't find where I could file a complaint with NFPA. It also appears that NES is a publication of NFPA. I would liken NFPA to be like the US Tire & Rim Association. An organization that publishes but does not enforce standards & guidelines.

It appears RVIA is just an organization set up to make money by issuing stickers. What I am looking for is an organization that can and will enforce real safety standards when it comes to electrical components used in motor vehicles. Maybe there isn't one.
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Old 10-28-2016, 10:45 AM   #69
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The problem that is at heart of all this is the lack of incentive for the industry to change.

Most new buyers think like they are buying a car and don't realize the complexity of the these units that are essentially custom made, combing all kinds of stuff made by others, without typical auto mfg quality controls. The mfgs don't do unit runs and generate inventory.

A few mfgs try to make up for this with extensive PDIs at the factory level, for example Newmar charges $3,500 for a special factory PDI with the owner present. Most mfgs rely on dealers to do PDI's, of which some do a good job and many skimp on it, which leaves the owners basically responsible for quality control. (Which is why many savvy owners like to buy slightly used and let the unsavvy owners do the cleanup)

Since there are no absence of buyers, no incentive to change.

All of this underlined by the excellent job done by the mfgs to limit the applicability of the lemon laws to the chassis and engine, such that the house portion of the unit is not covered by lemon laws.

All the stuff you read about workers not being what they were in Dad's day is not really true, it is just that the work force doesn't get the training, quality control system and supervision, job security, and quality of basic education our father's got. And, the workers are paid piece rates, the line must keep moving, so the mfg process turns to shizzz.
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Old 10-28-2016, 11:33 AM   #70
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Just got off the phone with NHTSA engineer. There apparently are no federal safety regulations that specifically address electrical wiring issues in motor vehicles as the car companies all seem to have developed and use good systems that work without having cars burn to the ground.

HOWEVER if you have an issue you can file a complaint on the NHTSA SafeCar website.

Vehicle VIN would be needed and pictures are helpful.
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Old 10-28-2016, 01:59 PM   #71
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[QUOTE=Tireman9;1352741]Not quite, NHTSA publishes and enforces safety requirements and standards on a number of motor vehicle systems such as tires, seat belts & child seats. They have the authority to enforce those standards force product recalls and issue fines for non-compliance. They also accumulate complaints and do investigations.]

I took a look at NFPA and NES. I didn't find where I could file

It's NEC not S
Electrical rules almost universally adopt the std. of NEC. Fed rules, state regs. And local ordinances adopt. Them and become effectively laws. Enforcement is the job of the group causing the installation or repair. Ask a licensed engineer about NEC. Here's a short para from the Wik about them. They don't write laws directly most agencies adopt their writings.


The National Electrical Code (NEC), or NFPA 70, is a regionally adoptable standard for the safe installation of electrical wiring and equipment in the United States. It is part of the National Fire Codes series published by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), a private trade association.[1] Despite the use of the term "national", it is not a federal law. It is typically adopted by states and municipalities in an effort to standardize their enforcement of safe electrical practices.[2] In some cases, the NEC is amended, altered and may even be rejected in lieu of regional regulations as voted on by local governing bodies.
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Old 10-29-2016, 12:28 PM   #72
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Vince, That's why I suggest the complaint be filed with NHTSA as they do have the authority for force action on manufacturers.

The others like NFPA and their publication NEC just publish guides and to my understanding have no legal authority to force action.

Since it sounds like you are familiar with electrical standards can you find the appropriate sections that would cover both 120 and 12 volt systems in motor vehicles? With that information it might be easier to go to some legal authority and ask about the sale of potentially unsafe vehicles.
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Old 10-29-2016, 01:50 PM   #73
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"In your training did you ever see anything on what RVIA considers a "safe and proper" electrical connection for 12v application and/or a 120v application"

First off, going back to the post that started the thread, the owner was of the opinion that some wiring was never tightened. If I put myself in his shoes, I would have spent several days at the dealership going through the coach doing my own PDI in addition to whatever the dealership did. That is also when I would insist on receiving all the electrical schematics before I took ownership.

One of the things I would have done was checked and tightened all the wiring, replaced the fuses with the new kind that light up when that fuse has failed and done some other things to protect the wiring, the batteries, and protect against a bad pedestal.

The term safe in the context of wiring means "Making tight electrical connections is critical to a safe wiring job...." It also includes a whole lot more things, like the right kind and size of wiring, checking out the pedestal before plugging in, etc. etc.

But focusing on the connection not being tight, there are three fingers to point at: 1) mfg, 2) dealer, 3) the owner.

I didn't take all my training because of high quality and standards expectations as to RVs...I have low expectations regarding this industry. And my inspections tell me that there are a lot of owners who...justify the depreciation calculations.

Just get the factory to fix it and get back on the road.

I'm going to tell you that all of you are right, if that helps.
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Old 11-28-2016, 02:51 PM   #74
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Got it back a few weeks ago, was given a few upgrades also for the troubles. Time will tell if they got it all. unfortunately it is winter here now so Camping will not resume till spring again for us other than maybe camp out in the back yard for the fun of it.
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