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Old 08-29-2018, 11:18 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by babock View Post
Compare a 6v and 12v from the same manufacture and chemistry and they will last exactly the same. I used to work for GM on the EV1. We used 12v batteries.

The reason to use 6v is price. You use whatever combo is cheaper as long as they are both true deep discharge.
So the plates will be the same thickness in the 12v vs 6v?
Cost per ah is significantly cheaper on a 6v I agree with that.
The 6v batteries that came in my motorhome lasted 12 years with no maintenance, stored outside year round at a storage facility with no charger, for up to 6 months at a time during winter months with no use. I haven't found a 12v battery that robust and can't imagine what the price difference would be to get one that compares.
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Old 08-29-2018, 11:34 AM   #62
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So the plates will be the same thickness in the 12v vs 6v?
Cost per ah is significantly cheaper on a 6v I agree with that.
The 6v batteries that came in my motorhome lasted 12 years with no maintenance, stored outside year round at a storage facility with no charger, for up to 6 months at a time during winter months with no use. I haven't found a 12v battery that robust and can't imagine what the price difference would be to get one that compares.
If you look at the Trojan website, you can find many 12V golf cart batteries.

Will be interesting to see what happens to the 6V golf cart battery market now that very few newer golf carts even use 6V batteries anymore. Pretty much all of them are 8V and 12V.

Not sure why everyone gets hung up on the plate size...internet lore that keeps getting perpetuated. If you have a 6V 220AH battery and a 12V 110AH battery, the plates may be different but in a 12V system, you will have half the current being delivered by the 12V battery in the bank so it all evens out.
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:57 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by jake wolfpack View Post
East Penn has been providing wet cell batteries for Duracell for a long time
East Penn Announces Expansion of Duracell Battery Products - aftermarketNews
I stand corrected...was thinking of Duralast...which Johnson makes... For AutoZone.
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Old 08-29-2018, 02:50 PM   #64
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Two Sam's Club Duracell Group 31 AGM batteries installed three years ago. Stay outside all winter up here in New England with solar charger (Three 140w panels) Bogart charger and TriMetic monitoring. Never use generator. Put 22K miles on trailer with these two batteries. Still going strong!

Paid $189 each three years ago.......
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Old 09-06-2018, 10:20 PM   #65
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Battery cable gauge?

So the cables on my TT that run to the battery are 8 AWG. If I go with two batteries, does the connector cable between the two batteries need to match...8-gauge? All I'm seeing is 2 and 4-gauge.
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Old 09-06-2018, 10:52 PM   #66
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I wasnít entirely clear. Your right about the two being equal but what i meant is that you can usually get higher amp hour ratings in 6V batteries than 12V batteries. Thatís why RV owners use them.
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Old 09-06-2018, 10:53 PM   #67
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They don’t need to match but can’t be smaller. 4 or 2 would be just fine.
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Old 09-06-2018, 11:13 PM   #68
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I wasnít entirely clear. Your right about the two being equal but what i meant is that you can usually get higher amp hour ratings in 6V batteries than 12V batteries. Thatís why RV owners use them.
Sorry, wrong again. A pair of 12V Group 31's are just about the same amp hours as a pair of 6V...(roughly 210 ah) and can be used individually in case of one failing.
The REASONs more people use 6V is that:
1. They are ALL really deep cycle whereas many "deep cycle" marketed 12V batteries are really dual purpose with thinner plates and shorter life cycles.
2. They are cheaper than a similar pair of Group 31 batteries because they are designed for an industrial setting/use.
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Old 09-06-2018, 11:19 PM   #69
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So the cables on my TT that run to the battery are 8 AWG. If I go with two batteries, does the connector cable between the two batteries need to match...8-gauge? All I'm seeing is 2 and 4-gauge.
The connecting cables can be 8 gauge or larger (4 would be cheaper than 2). If your 8 gauge cable is marginal to carry the current/voltage from your converter, you might think about replacing that with larger since you are now going to have a "battery" that can TAKE twice as much current than your old one. (Assuming your converter is capable of putting out 20% of your new amphour total). But I'd try it with the existing wiring and 4 gauge jumpers.
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Old 09-07-2018, 05:49 AM   #70
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Wire gauges

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Originally Posted by sebaine View Post
So the cables on my TT that run to the battery are 8 AWG. If I go with two batteries, does the connector cable between the two batteries need to match...8-gauge? All I'm seeing is 2 and 4-gauge.
Wire gauge numbering is not intuitive. The lower the number, the thicker the cable. It is always okay to use a thicker cable. So if your current cabling is 8-gauge (AWG = American Wire Gauge), using 4-gauge would work fine.

(Yes, there have already been other posts to this effect, but it's easy to be confused by the gauge system, especially if you are ordering online and can't touch and feel the products.)

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Old 09-07-2018, 06:51 AM   #71
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If you look at the Trojan website, you can find many 12V golf cart batteries.

Will be interesting to see what happens to the 6V golf cart battery market now that very few newer golf carts even use 6V batteries anymore. Pretty much all of them are 8V and 12V.

Not sure why everyone gets hung up on the plate size...internet lore that keeps getting perpetuated. If you have a 6V 220AH battery and a 12V 110AH battery, the plates may be different but in a 12V system, you will have half the current being delivered by the 12V battery in the bank so it all evens out.


So what you are saying is batteries is batteries no matter the name or 12 volt or 6 volt. I think you are wrong but buy what you like
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:42 AM   #72
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So what you are saying is batteries is batteries no matter the name or 12 volt or 6 volt. I think you are wrong but buy what you like
They are the same if they are the same construction and chemistry. You can think I am wrong all you like. I used to work for GM on the EV1. Yes, we used 12v batteries.
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:55 AM   #73
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Wearout mechanism...

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Originally Posted by babock View Post
Not sure why everyone gets hung up on the plate size...internet lore that keeps getting perpetuated. If you have a 6V 220AH battery and a 12V 110AH battery, the plates may be different but in a 12V system, you will have half the current being delivered by the 12V battery in the bank so it all evens out.
Think about the wearout mechanism of lead-acid batteries.

As they go through many cycles of dissolving the lead (discharging) and plating the lead back onto the plates (charging) some lead is no longer available to contribute by two mechanisms:
  • Larger particles plated back onto the plates either get so big they short to the adjacent plate (failure due to shorted cell).
  • Larger particles aren't firmly attached to the plates and fall to the bottom of the cell, aggravated by bumpy roads. (The plates don't go all the way to the bottom of the battery case to accommodate this, avoiding premature shorted cells.)

So what design practices contribute to a longer-lived battery? Intuitively, thicker plates would make more lead available for consumption. But within a fixed case size that means smaller gaps between plates increasing likelihood of a shorted cell. Similarly, deeper plates would make more lead available but reduce the volume at the bottom for stray lead particles also increasing likelihood of a shorted cell. These are design tradeoffs the battery designer must make.

So what can the user do to extend the life of a battery? Once again there are two factors:
  • We've all heard many times "Don't draw the battery down to far." The problem is where the lead is taken from when it's dissolved. If it were taken evenly across the plate surface there would be no issue. But if the edges dissolve completely and disappear, there's no place for lead to be deposited when charging occurs. The same is true if holes are produced in the plates when discharging.
  • The amount of current used to charge a lead-acid battery affects the way lead is plated back onto the plates. When I was growing up, back in the 1960s, service stations used to offer a "fast charge." This high-current charge did indeed produce a fast result, but the plating produced coarse particles leading to the two failure modes described above. (People may cuss the WFCO charging cycles, but they arguably contribute to longer battery life.)

Just my two cents.

Larry
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:09 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Larry-NC View Post
Think about the wearout mechanism of lead-acid batteries.

As they go through many cycles of dissolving the lead (discharging) and plating the lead back onto the plates (charging) some lead is no longer available to contribute by two mechanisms:
  • Larger particles plated back onto the plates either get so big they short to the adjacent plate (failure due to shorted cell).
  • Larger particles aren't firmly attached to the plates and fall to the bottom of the cell, aggravated by bumpy roads. (The plates don't go all the way to the bottom of the battery case to accommodate this, avoiding premature shorted cells.)

So what design practices contribute to a longer-lived battery? Intuitively, thicker plates would make more lead available for consumption. But within a fixed case size that means smaller gaps between plates increasing likelihood of a shorted cell. Similarly, deeper plates would make more lead available but reduce the volume at the bottom for stray lead particles also increasing likelihood of a shorted cell. These are design tradeoffs the battery designer must make.

So what can the user do to extend the life of a battery? Once again there are two factors:
  • We've all heard many times "Don't draw the battery down to far." The problem is where the lead is taken from when it's dissolved. If it were taken evenly across the plate surface there would be no issue. But if the edges dissolve completely and disappear, there's no place for lead to be deposited when charging occurs. The same is true if holes are produced in the plates when discharging.
  • The amount of current used to charge a lead-acid battery affects the way lead is plated back onto the plates. When I was growing up, back in the 1960s, service stations used to offer a "fast charge." This high-current charge did indeed produce a fast result, but the plating produced coarse particles leading to the two failure modes described above. (People may cuss the WFCO charging cycles, but they arguably contribute to longer battery life.)

Just my two cents.

Larry
You can test your theory by going to the Trojan site and look at the depth of discharge charts and check the amount of capacity loss using 50% depth of discharge for both 12v and 6v golf cart batteries. You will find they are the same.

Go to Lifeline and do the same with AGM as well.
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:14 AM   #75
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You can get the same battery build in 12v from Trojan and several of the ‘name’ builders, but, the price is typically higher, and availability is limited as opposed to 2x 6v. Either way, flooded lead acid batteries should only be discharged to about 50% if you want them to live long and....

There are advantages and disadvantages to both builds of battery (12 vs 6 volt) Space and weight. The 1x 12 volt and the 2x 6 volt should be almost the same weight if they are of the same current capacity and from the same builder. The size footprint, and the weight distribution between the 2 will differ. 6v should be easier to find. One advantage 1x 12v, you will not need the jumper like the 2x 6v battery.

It boils down to price, space availability, and how much weight you can concentrate in one spot in your battery bay. Some will chime in, if using 2x 12 volt batteries, if one fails, you can unhook the dead battery. When a battery dies, it will most often take out the other if in parallel, like 2x 12v will be, unless isolated. 2x 6v, chances of one going bad, is the same as losing any cell in any similiar type battery. Please note, that if you are using 2x 12v, to get the same current rating, you will need 4x 6v, wired in series/parallel. The only difference in the builds, is you basically have 3 cells in a 6v battery, all in one case, at apprx 1/2 the weight. Whereas the 12v battery has 6 cells in a larger casing, at apprx 2x the weight. Either way, be sure your charger is up to the task and you maintain them. Oh, be sure they have good venting when you modify your space to fit these. The vapor these generate during charge/discharge is corrosive and explosive. Remember the Hindenburg. (Sulphuric acid and Hydrogen gas!)

Food for thought, and battery lives matter....lol.
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:15 AM   #76
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Two Sam's Club Duracell Group 31 AGM batteries installed three years ago. Stay outside all winter up here in New England with solar charger (Three 140w panels) Bogart charger and TriMetic monitoring. Never use generator. Put 22K miles on trailer with these two batteries. Still going strong!

Paid $189 each three years ago.......
That is Great news !!!
Just installed ours this Spring !!!
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