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Old 09-28-2016, 05:24 PM   #21
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Resmed cpap draws no more than 75 watts if you turn off the hose heat and humidifier, otherwise twice that
That's about 6 amps of DC. A couple og deep cycles should handle that for 8 hours.
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Old 09-28-2016, 06:04 PM   #22
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My battery of choice is a FLA Duracell GC-2 from Batteries Plus; the 6 volt 230Ah in series they are Deka GC-15 made by East Penn under different names on them. A little over a hundred bucks a pop. Your 3000W inverter is going to waste some energy but you own it. I would be concerned more with how you put those electrons back and the typical converter doesnt do well, especially not in a few hours. PDI has models with the Wizard and IOTA has IQ-4.. both pretty good. A generator charging via a converter is not ideal and takes more time than you might imagine... this could have you at the begining of the evening at 70% to 80% thinking you are full. My 2000w magnum PSW has a 4 or 5 stage 100A charger that will bring 4 of those batteries from 50% to full (to 1.275 SG) in about 2-1/2 hours .. and does it on shore or a Honda EU2000W inverter type genny... you don't need 4 and would imagine it take about 1 to 1-1/2 hours for a pair to be happy. I would only use SLA or AGM if the location prevents you from checking them or off gassing is an issue . Obviously you can not check SG on them. For me, not worth the money difference. FLA is a technology that has been proven for decades
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Old 09-28-2016, 06:11 PM   #23
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If you're gonna go for top quality AGM's...then I'd suggest Trojans or Lifelines.
Get the biggest ones that will fit in your space.
With your Xantrex...did you also get a battery monitoring and control panel?
If not...I suggest real battery monitor like the Victron or Trimetric will help you both preserve your new investment and understand exactly how much capacity you have left (in amp hours or hours at present usage rate) and when your AGM's are 100% charged. Unlike wet cells...AGM's are more sensitive to being fully recharged...and you'll save gas no overdoing it as well.
Simple install requiring only mechanical skills.

Finally...AGM's are capable of taking a charge at at least TWICE the rate of wet cells which are limited to roughly 25% of their rated amp hours.
So a pair of Group 27 AGM's rated at 200 amp hours...can be charged at 100amps in bulk stage. Obviously this can save you a lot of time and $$ compared to a standard 50 amp charger FR uses in a lot of products. To take advantage of this, you need a bigger charger AND bigger wiring from charger to battery to handle the current (bigger fuse near the battery too!)
Since you have a 3000 watt Xantrex....i'm thinking you might have the one that also contains a 150amp+ charger built in. If so...take advantage of it with your new batts by stringing new cable (based on the current and length of run). If not...might be something to ask Santa for down the road. The IOTA DLS90 with IQ4 would be a good choice.

BTW,,,here's a DC wire size calculator for you. https://bulkwire.com/help/recommende...uge-calculator
Note that length of wire is for the ROUND TRIP between charger I.E 15 feet separation = 30 feet of wire.

Good luck!
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Old 09-28-2016, 08:27 PM   #24
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My machine didn't come with an adapter so 110 is the only option (I use an older Res-Med unit). Some things never wear out.
You can by an adapter from res med. I have one.
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Old 09-28-2016, 09:34 PM   #25
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Correction the MS line of inverter / chargers from Magnum Energy, has a 125A charger. When I was trying to find out about AGM for the RV, it seemed to me that I could not get an unbiased opinion. The companies singing its praises were selling them ... and selling a lot of them, which to me smelled like marketing hype. Having worked with flooded batteries in the telecom industry and seeing lead acid batteries last 30 - 40 years, I guess I just trust them more. I could not justify spending $1200 to $1400 on batteries that I could verify was a wise purchase.
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Old 09-28-2016, 09:51 PM   #26
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Be sure your charger or converter is designed for AGM batteries. Their charge requirements are different than wet cell. Call the manufacturer if unsure.
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Old 09-29-2016, 02:19 PM   #27
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Take the advice from "The 12 Volt Side Of Life" with a grain of salt. There are some statements made that are a bit far from accurate.

Which ones?


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Old 09-29-2016, 02:47 PM   #28
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Wet cells are by far the best bargain for coach house batteries, and 6 volt are better than 12 volt. Trojan and others make durable and excellent deep cycle batteries. AGM is really not worth it unless your batteries are in the living space and you can't live with venting. There is also a lot of interesting data on floating some oil on the cells of flooded cell batteries to eliminate the corrosion problems on leads, connections, etc. haven't tried it yet but I am going to.
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Old 09-29-2016, 03:47 PM   #29
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I have a couple issues.. One, my 'coach' is a Palomino Backpack Slide in truck camper so my batteries are in my living (camping) space and not in a tray somewhere, consequently the non fuming AGM type would probably be the best bet.

Secondly, space is limited. I like the idea of 2 6 volt batteries in series but I will say that the supplied with deep cycle exide the camper came with and the Xantrex 3000 watt PSW inverter has handled the Res Med all night, no issue, I actually have 12.5 volts showing on my cheapo cigarette lighter socket plug in voltmeter in the morning. I think (without looking at the manual (which is in the camper and not here) the threshold low voltage alarm is 11.5 volts.

I did my research so I knew that any inverter that isn't shut down, draws idle current, not much, but some, so I opted for the remote shut off because I have the inverter mounted in the mechanical bay which is under the dinette seat and kind of a PITA to get to, to shut off every morning. It lives in there with everything electrical and mechanical, including the battery in it's vented battery box.

I hard wired the output to a GFI outlet near the bed and labeled it INVERTER ONLY so no one mistakes it for a shore power 110 outlet.

I really want to step up to a group 31 no matter what design I do use.

...and on the comments about having a CPAP 'calibrated', I 'calibrate' my own. There are many posts on the net concerning setting them.

My prime motovator for increasing storage capacity is I want to use my powered humifidier. The Xantrex is well up to the task, it's a 3K watt unit, my battery as it stands, isn't.

I could run my genny all night but I don't want to listen to the noise. I boondock camp so quiet is essential.

So, I can go all night (7-8 hours) on my present battery, no issue but it's not enough for the humidifier. The camper draws very little other than whatever the frig draws on propane (I suspect milliamps) and the lights are all LED's. I use a windup clock (yes, you can still get a windup clock) and my radio is a C.C. Crane Solar Observer, batteries or solar powered...(actually a nice Am/Fm/ Weather Band radio that has a pleasant, not tinney tone to it).

I'm thoroughly (addicted) to my CPAP, been snoozing on one for decades and having experienced a night without and waking up a zombie... I need it every night, which is why I actually own 3 machines, not just one. Cannot afford a breakdown.

........and I charge the camper battery every day for a couple hours with the inverter genny, usually in the evening before bed time and that seems sufficient, I say seems. Not sure if the battery is getting fully charged but it carries the CPAP all night.

I have not a clue what the power center in the camper does (other than convert 110 a/c to 12 dc) and distribute power to everything, seems to work fine.

My motto with electricity is, if it works, don't screw with it...
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Old 09-29-2016, 04:19 PM   #30
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........and I charge the camper battery every day for a couple hours with the inverter genny, usually in the evening before bed time and that seems sufficient, I say seems. Not sure if the battery is getting fully charged but it carries the CPAP all night.
You are murdering your battery. AGM's are even less tolerant of this type of treatment. You need a true battery monitor based on your description of use.
Keep your new AGM's above 50% discharge and always fill them 100% which can NOT be achieved in 2 hours. Volt meters are NOT any help to this process other than to tell you that your battery is dead or that your charger is working.
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Old 09-29-2016, 04:23 PM   #31
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One thing I will correct here...

AGM batteries DO vent; just at a much, much lower rate than traditional flooded/wet type batteries.

A typical AGM vent remains closed until such time as the internal pressure in the battery casing hits about 7psig - then it will vent, until the pressure drops below that level.

Hard fast charging will increase the internal pressure of the battery much more than a lower charge rate will; and lead to more offgassing (and a reduction in battery capacity and life).

The electrochemical process is the same - an electrolyte solution in contact with lead/conductive plates... major difference is physical construction - in an AGM configuration, the electrolyte is in a fibreglass mat material, installed under pressure from the battery casing.

The advice you'se gotten about using two, new, identical batteries is absolutely correct; same with minimizing cable distance, and maximizing (within reason) cable size.

Personally, I'd suggest two 6v in series, rather than two 12v in parallel, but either will work...
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Old 09-29-2016, 04:23 PM   #32
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My only comment to that is... Better to murder that battery than be a zombie while camping.....

Maybe I should stick to what I have and just toss in a new battery every year. They aren't all that expensive anyway. 100 bucks is 2 tanks of diesel..maybe.
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Old 09-29-2016, 04:28 PM   #33
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Side Car Flip ... that 12.5 in the morning is about 80% ... or roughly 3/5 left in reserve ... based on taking them no lower than 11.9 - 12.0. Plus if they were just under a load it could be higher. Which sounds good. In my experience gassing (fuming) only occurs with High charge or discharge rates. . normally you shouldn't detect any, but, I get your concern, I would be as well. I wouldn't be without a good monitor like the Trimetric TN-2030 ... takes the guessing out if it all. You will know how full and what you have left. IMO if you decide AGM, look at Trojan's T-105 AGM; if you take care of them with proper charging etc, there is probably none better. They could "force" you to get a better charger that will drastically cut charge times. Keep in mind a pair of these higher Ah batteries will increase charging time. The charger should dictate charge times.
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Old 09-29-2016, 07:56 PM   #34
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I sleep on a CPAP machine at night (running through a xantrex PSW inverter.)
My wife and I both use CPAP and have done so when dry camping. Rather than use an inverter to change the 12v DC to 120v AC, we have 12v adapters purchased from the CPAP manufacturer. It's more efficient because the CPAP actually runs off DC.

We have 2 g27 12v deep cycle batteries in trolling motor battery cases from Wal-Mart. They're our power source when dry-camping in the trailer. When not camping the 12v adapters described above come in the house with us and the batteries live on our back porch, plugged into a Battery Tender Junior to maintain the charge.

If we suffer a power failure, they're our backup power system for the CPAP. The battery cases have carry handles and cigarette lighter sockets which fit the CPAP power adapter plugs.

A Honda 2000eu is our recharge power source. We've only used it when camping but, if the home power outage were prolonged (we live in hurricane territory) it would serve that purpose at home, too.
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Old 09-29-2016, 09:00 PM   #35
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Which ones?


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Just for fun I took the part 1 of the 12V Side of Life and found the things I disagreed with. There are many. Here are the statements and opinions I disagree with: (Bolded what I disagree with and wrote my own opinions in red.)

Slower charging and discharging rates are more efficient. This is meaningless in a charging situation. Your goal is to get the battery charged as fast as possible because running your generator to charge any battery is VERY inefficient and you want it over as quickly as possilble. This statement means it takes less WATTAGE to charge a battery at 5 amps rather than 50 amps...but it makes NO sense to run your generator 10x longer.
Practically all batteries used in RV applications are Lead-Acid type batteries. Even after over a century of use, they still offer the best price to power ratio. NO... actually lithium batteries provide a far better bang for your buck but they are prohibitively expensive for most.
In my opinion, the standard flooded cell battery offers better overall performance for the price and will probably last a lot longer in most common RV applications. Trojan specs out wet cells as lasting 10% more cycles with perfect care in lab conditions. AGM's will out perform them in actual use since batteries are so often neglected.
Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% repeatedly, and have much thicker plates. While they MAY be discharged as much as 80%...there is a HEAVY price to be paid in life cycles compared to 50% discharge....you lose 1/3 AT LEAST of your battery life.

The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are solid Lead plates - not sponge. Completely false. Deep cycle batteries typically use a PASTE of lead and antimony and other proprietary ingredients and a spongy surface provides MORE reactive surface area and is desireable! The only pure lead plate deep cycles I am aware of are the TPPL AGM's by Odyssey which are both expensive and excellent.
Most flooded batteries should be charged at no more than the "C/10" rate for any sustained period. "C/10" is the battery capacity in amp/hours divided by 10. Sorry....the goal is to charge quickly and wet cells will accept bulk charging at C/20-25 while AGM's will typically accept at at least twice that. Once the battery reaches 70-75% SOC ...then it will resist higher charge rates.
The truth is, most of the RVs on the road have very poorly designed battery charging systems courtesy of the factory. Why? Well, cost plays a key role in deciding what equipment a RV will have installed when it's sold. Most RVs depend on the 12volt converter to charge the house batteries. In most cases, that's a very poor compromise! Totally dated info...I'm not aware of ANY mfr. using anything less than a 3 stage charger for the last 4-5 years.

The best chargers on the market are 3-stage chargers. NO... the best chargers on the market are 4 stage chargers which periodically EQ the batteries so they avoid sulfation.
Float Charge:The 3rd stage of 3-stage battery charging. After batteries reach full charge, charging voltage is reduced.. NO...Float begins BEFORE full charge is reached and continues afterwards to maintain a full charge.
Since the converter is designed to not exceed a voltage of about 13.5 volts, it will never fully charge your batteries. Again...dated information...converters will supply roughly 14.5 volts to begin...and 13.5 volts WILL fully charge a battery...eventually...as will ANY voltage higher than FULL (12.7).
Also, after it has succeeded in partially charging your batteries, it will then commence to boil off electrolyte, as the "float" voltage is too high (should be about 13.2 volts max.). Dated and untrue today.
http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/voltchart2.gif differs from similar chart earlier on the page. Which chart should we rely on for battery state of charge? (The latter is closer.) SOC= Measured at rest voltage....minus 11.4...divided by 1.5 and multiplied by 100.
Example...measured voltage 12.2 -11.4=.8 /1.5 x100=53% charged.

Allow the battery to sit for six hours with no load or charger connected
24 hours is the proper wait time. 6 is better than nothing. Don't believe it?
Take a new battery and charge it fully. Remove the negative terminal. Measure it in 6 hours and you are guaranteed to have over 12.7V...since 12.7 is 100% full you are getting the surface charge voltage. This happens on ALL batteries so even if you read 12.7 on an older battery...it could be 12.2 and trouble!
some charging current will have to be applied to the batteries periodically during the storage period. NOT true for storage periods of 3 months or less for wet cells. Not true for storage periods of 6 months or less of AGMS (actually probably a year!) . Self discharge of a fully charged battery is 10% or less a month in moderate temperatures and much less in freezing confitions. 1% or less for AGM's.) Exception...if storing in FL or Arizona...you may need to apply a charge sooner. Batteries will NOT freeze if at least 70% SOC is observed. This means...charge fully and you'll have at least 70% 3 months later with no danger of freezing and NO need to keep a charge on them. (Assumes disconnected negative wire so no parasitic drain.)
Storage: It is a real good idea to check at the battery with an ammeter to ensure that there is no current drain. Simply disconnect the negative.

Invest in a good digital voltmeter and use it.If you're gonna invest in something...invest in an AC/DC Clamp meter so you can see what is going on! Voltmeters are good but limited. A $50buck clamp/meter will be a better investment. If you boondock...get a true battery monitor before anything else. Victron or Trimetric.


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Old 09-29-2016, 10:09 PM   #36
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My wife and I both use CPAP and have done so when dry camping. Rather than use an inverter to change the 12v DC to 120v AC, we have 12v adapters purchased from the CPAP manufacturer. It's more efficient because the CPAP actually runs off DC.

We have 2 g27 12v deep cycle batteries in trolling motor battery cases from Wal-Mart. They're our power source when dry-camping in the trailer. When not camping the 12v adapters described above come in the house with us and the batteries live on our back porch, plugged into a Battery Tender Junior to maintain the charge.

If we suffer a power failure, they're our backup power system for the CPAP. The battery cases have carry handles and cigarette lighter sockets which fit the CPAP power adapter plugs.

A Honda 2000eu is our recharge power source. We've only used it when camping but, if the home power outage were prolonged (we live in hurricane territory) it would serve that purpose at home, too.
I checked on CPAP.com and I cannot get a DC power cord for my unit, I guess it's too old..

No issue with backup power at home on the farm, we have to have power to pump water for the stock, heat the barns, power the shop and house so I own a 25 KW diesel, skid mounted standby genset, plumbed into my bulk diesel storage tank (1000 gallons). It's on an automatic vacuum transfer switch that is rated for 250 amps inductive load at 220 volts, plenty enough to run the place. The only thing I have to do is start it weekly and make sure the batteries are good... dang batteries again. They have a constant trickle charge and are flooded cell starting batteries. 15 seconds after we loose line power, the genny starts and 45 seconds after that it assumes the full load. When the unit senses stable line power, it cycles out and shuts down.

So, if I'm sleeping, my machine barely misses a beat. If we loose power at night the only way we can tell is the clocks are blinking. The genny is out by the barn, you cannot hear it in the house at all.

I didn't wire it, like I said, I'm electrically deficient. I had it wired by a certified and licensed electrician. I did the mechanical install however. It was a government surplus unit, has a John Deere turbocharged diesel engine and a Westinghouse generator head.

I have one of those Champoin 2000 watt inverters for the camper. Nice little unit, real quiet, super light, starts one pull and runs a whole weekend off an on, on about 1/2 gallon of gas. I'm very happy with it, Best part was it was 449 bucks new, delivered to my front porch.

I would have bought a Honda or a Yamaha but the price scared me away and the Champ has excellent reviews. I have a Honda engine on a garden tiller thats been a constant PITA from day one and I had a Honda engine on a pressure washer that threw a rod and not from me not changing the oil either. With that, I'm pretty much done with Honda powered stuff but the Yamaha and the Honda are way overpriced (compared the the Champion). Was a slam dunk for me.

I looked at the battery monitors mentioned in the above posts. It looks intimidating with shunts and all, for me to put in, not sure I'm capable and not sure if the cost ($150.00) justifies the end.

If I'm 'murdering' my present deep cycle and it pukes next year, I can get another for less than 100 bucks and go another year or 2 or get into 2 6 volt golf cart batteries when this one pukes.. Lots of options. I do need to physically measure how much room is available, it is a truck camper so room is at a premium. Something I'll get into this winter. The camper will 'sleep' in a heated equipment shop with my truck. I winterized it last weekend and then scratched my head and asked myself why I did that. The camper will never be below freezing, I keep the shop at 60 all the time.... oh well.

I see they now have a mount where you can physically mount a second battery under the bed of the truck, on the truck frame but in my view that could be an issue maintenance wise.

I do like the idea of keeping heavy items (like batteries and water tanks) as low as possible. Keeps the Cg low and adds to the stability of the camper and truck.
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Old 09-29-2016, 10:31 PM   #37
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Just for fun I took the part 1 of the 12V Side of Life and found the things I disagreed with. There are many. Here are the statements and opinions I disagree with: (Bolded what I disagree with and wrote my own opinions in red.)
Thank you Cam!

There is a lot of false info in that write up.
I was just about to reply to spock123, but you beat me to it.

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Old 09-29-2016, 11:30 PM   #38
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Just as a report of my CPAP useage. I use an AGM battery that I bought at Cabelas. Has worked well for me. I use a 12 volt adapter for my Respironics System One CPAP and can get 4 nights of useage with my battery before having to recharge. Obviously don't have the humidifier turned on when on DC.
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Old 09-29-2016, 11:44 PM   #39
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Just as a report of my CPAP useage. I use an AGM battery that I bought at Cabelas. Has worked well for me. I use a 12 volt adapter for my Respironics System One CPAP and can get 4 nights of useage with my battery before having to recharge. Obviously don't have the humidifier turned on when on DC.
I've gotten accustomed to not using a humidifier when camping anyway. It's usually humid enough in the camper in the summer and I don't have ac. My humidifier is a stand alone unit anyway, a Fischer / Patel I think.

I know that sounds weird (no ac) but the entire top sides of the Backpack open up and are screened do you don't need ac. It's like sleeping outside, inside....and it has a powered roof fan vent for my wife who passes gas in the night...lol (she don't read this forum so I'm safe (I think at least) posting that tid bit....

In retrospect, I probably do to, but I'm sleeping.....
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Old 09-30-2016, 12:18 AM   #40
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... I own a 25 KW diesel, skid mounted standby genset, plumbed into my bulk diesel storage tank (1000 gallons).
My condo neighbors would likely object to that approach or, worse, demand that I share.
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