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Old 11-09-2020, 08:27 AM   #1
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I think my fridge is the culprit....

I experienced a very weird electrical problem this weekend when I took our camper up north to our new property. I suspect it's our fridge but looking for everyone else's opinion.

This was the first time bringing the camper to our new property. Long story short, i was unable to get the camper into the property in the direction i wanted so i ended up dropping it on the spot i wanted, but 180 degrees from the direction i wanted it facing. This now put my electrical connection at the furthest point from the 50amp out i have on our power pedestal.

So out of my camper (see signature for rig details) i have a 25' 50 amp cord, that goes to a 25' 30 amp cord. The plan was to connect the 30 amp cord to the 50amp outlet using my proper adapter. But because the pole is now further away i had to use a 15 amp cord and adapter to reach the pole until i could order a new one this week. So the camper was now plugged into a standard 3 prong 20amp GFCI outlet located directly below the breaker box.

Side note. My camper only really needs 30amp if i'm running the AC or the fireplace. It's wired for 50 out of the camper in case i add a second AC. Since i built the power pedestal myself, i just put a 50amp outlet on instead of 30 because it's always easier to adapter down vs. up.

When i turned the main breaker on in the camper, i blew the 20 amp GFCI on the power pedestal in less than 2 minutes. That was weird. Reset GFCI, same thing. I turned off all the breakers in the camper and had my buddy sit at the pedestal and i went through a process of elimination to figure out what circuit could be causing the issue. Ended up narrowing it down to 1 circuit. It's the one labeled "GEN" on my camper breaker. I don't have a generator, nor is it wired for one so i assume it means general.

What is all on that circuit..3 outlets from what i can tell. But then i realized the fridge was on that circuit as well. Once i realized that, i instantly thought about some issues we were experiencing with our fridge (see pervious post) Basically we were having cooling issues. So i pulled the residential LG fridge out, unplugged it and then flipped the problematic breaker on. Taadaa!!! It didn't trip.

So i've isolated the fridge as my culprit....i think.
So i have 2 questions:
  1. Why would i be tripping the 20 amp GFCI on the power pedestal vs. the 15 amp breaker in the camper for the problematic circuit??
  2. What could be going on with the fridge that would cause it to trip a circuit instantly like that? I've had condensors go before and usually the firdge still runs, it just doesn't get cold.

Any ideas would be appreciated!
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Old 11-09-2020, 08:35 AM   #2
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Picture of the camper breaker panel:
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Old 11-09-2020, 08:51 AM   #3
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You said there were three outlets on the gen circuit. Is the first (or any) of those outlets a GFCI outlet? In other words, do you have the pedestal GFCI feeding a camper GFCI?
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Old 11-09-2020, 09:04 AM   #4
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Good question. If i recall correctly, there are no GFCI's on the problematic circuit. The only one would be the GFCI on the power pedestal.

Regardless, if there was a GFCI on the camper circuit, i suspect it would be 15amp. If that was the case, wouldn't it trip before the GFCI on the power pedestal that is 20amp? I wouldn't think having multiple GFCI's on a circuit would be a problem, i've had that in houses before.
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Old 11-09-2020, 09:41 AM   #5
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Did some more google'ing

Sounds like a refrigerator shouldn't be on GFCI circuit because of the juice it requires at startup, defrost, etc. So it must be that the GFCI is more sensitive to surges than a breaker and that's why it's not tripping the breaker in the camper but it trips the GFCI on the pedestal?
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Old 11-09-2020, 09:44 AM   #6
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If you have a GFCI on the pedestal, are you not putting everything in the RV on that GFCI? Is that a good idea?

I read a lot of posts that advise against hooking an RV into an outlet with a GFCI on it.
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Old 11-09-2020, 11:50 AM   #7
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I can't recall with certainty, but i feel like all/most campgrounds i've gone to the standard 15-20amp 3 prong outlets on the power pedestals have GFCI's on them. Pretty sure it's a code requirement for outdoor outlets.

Once i get the camper hooked to the 50amp plug i have on my pedestal, then there will be no GFCI's in the circuit expect for the GFCI in the camper.
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Old 11-09-2020, 02:16 PM   #8
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Another possibility...

Another possibility is that the refrigerator is not pulling excessive current, but has a slight leakage between hot and ground. All the current coming in on hot is not returning on neutral. That's the definition of a ground fault. It doesn't take much leakage. Just some dampness around the area where the wiring harness plugs onto the compressor would do it.

A couple of ways you could test this:
  • You could use an extension cord to plug the the refrigerator into the GFI outlet in the trailer bathroom and see if that GFI outlet trips.
  • You could set your multimeter on the highest ohms scale, unplug the refrigerator, and measure the resistance between the round pin and the narrow blade. Even at the highest scale, you should get infinity (often a blinking "1").
Let us know what you find.
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Old 11-09-2020, 02:17 PM   #9
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I believe you are right about campgrounds using GFCI 20 amp outlets on their pedestals - that would be a typical code requirement. But those outlets are generally in a pedestal that also has 30 amp and 50 amp outlets, in which case the 20 amp device would not usually be used to power an RV (we sometimes use that 20 amp outlet with an extension cord to power a griddle or other power hog that might trip the TT circuit for its outside outlet). I've read on this forum that GFCI pedestal outlets don't play well with RV GFCI devices, so that may be one of your challenges. It seems more likely that the initial power draw of the refrigerator, converter, and anything else that may be on at the time is simply too much for a 20 amp GFCI device to handle all at once and it trips. And in that case, your internal 15 amp GFCI is pretty much out of the loop and wouldn't trip. If you have the same issue with the 50 amp circuit, you'll know to look elsewhere for the issue. Good luck!
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie1280 View Post
I experienced a very weird electrical problem this weekend when I took our camper up north to our new property. I suspect it's our fridge but looking for everyone else's opinion.

This was the first time bringing the camper to our new property. Long story short, i was unable to get the camper into the property in the direction i wanted so i ended up dropping it on the spot i wanted, but 180 degrees from the direction i wanted it facing. This now put my electrical connection at the furthest point from the 50amp out i have on our power pedestal.

So out of my camper (see signature for rig details) i have a 25' 50 amp cord, that goes to a 25' 30 amp cord. The plan was to connect the 30 amp cord to the 50amp outlet using my proper adapter. But because the pole is now further away i had to use a 15 amp cord and adapter to reach the pole until i could order a new one this week. So the camper was now plugged into a standard 3 prong 20amp GFCI outlet located directly below the breaker box.

Side note. My camper only really needs 30amp if i'm running the AC or the fireplace. It's wired for 50 out of the camper in case i add a second AC. Since i built the power pedestal myself, i just put a 50amp outlet on instead of 30 because it's always easier to adapter down vs. up.

When i turned the main breaker on in the camper, i blew the 20 amp GFCI on the power pedestal in less than 2 minutes. That was weird. Reset GFCI, same thing. I turned off all the breakers in the camper and had my buddy sit at the pedestal and i went through a process of elimination to figure out what circuit could be causing the issue. Ended up narrowing it down to 1 circuit. It's the one labeled "GEN" on my camper breaker. I don't have a generator, nor is it wired for one so i assume it means general.

What is all on that circuit..3 outlets from what i can tell. But then i realized the fridge was on that circuit as well. Once i realized that, i instantly thought about some issues we were experiencing with our fridge (see pervious post) Basically we were having cooling issues. So i pulled the residential LG fridge out, unplugged it and then flipped the problematic breaker on. Taadaa!!! It didn't trip.

So i've isolated the fridge as my culprit....i think.
So i have 2 questions:
  1. Why would i be tripping the 20 amp GFCI on the power pedestal vs. the 15 amp breaker in the camper for the problematic circuit??
  2. What could be going on with the fridge that would cause it to trip a circuit instantly like that? I've had condensors go before and usually the firdge still runs, it just doesn't get cold.

Any ideas would be appreciated!
Larry-NC has the most accurate answer.
A GFI breaker is very sensitive to small amounts of current. Like .001 amperes flowing from the hot wire to ground and not through the neutral. That current amount is sufficient enough to stop a heart. It is nothing to be taken lightly.
Your circuit breaker in the trailer would trip first for an overload or fault. You did a great job isolating it to the refrigerator. That is where some small amount of current is going to ground .
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Old 11-09-2020, 03:23 PM   #11
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Since we've had cooling issues with the fridge and now this, no reason not to take it in since it's under warranty and should only cost me a deductible of $50 or $100.

Shouldn't be to difficult to pop the doors off and slide the unit out the camper door onto a trailer.
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:08 PM   #12
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I'm with Larry.

You are not overloading the circuit, you are tripping the ground fault because of a ground fault.

I found your rig: https://lakeshore-rv.com/arctic-wolf/265dbh8 This thing is a beast with two furnaces and two AC units...yours may be different.

How to figure out the problem:
First, verify that the interior outlets are (or are not) on the "Gen" breaker. Don't assume. Turn off the "Gen" breaker, plug shore power into the pedestal, double check that the inside GFCI is on (reset, not tripped), and test the outlets. If they work, they are not on the "Gen" breaker. But going forward, for testing and ruling-out purposes, let's assume the inside outlets ARE on the "Gen" breaker.

A GFCI outlet connected to an inside circuit SHOULD be "first in line" on that circuit so it can protect all outlets downstream of it, BUT THE GFCI OUTLET WILL BE DOWNSTREAM of the "Gen" breaker. I assure you, there is a GFCI outlet somewhere in the rig. Trip that inside GFCI and then test the 20 amp GFCI on the pedestal. If it still trips -- which is highly likely, because the inside GFCI should trip if it senses a fault at that outlet or those downstream of it -- unplug from shore power and chase down all OTHER loads on the "Gen" circuit breaker. Again, it's VERY unlikely to be related to your outlets if the inside GFCI outlet isn't tripped already.

The "Gen" circuit breaker may very well also supply one or several other "appliances." The lug on the breaker may have more than one wire attached to it. Also important to remember, the "Gen" breaker feeds that first interior GFCI outlet with unprotected wire. The inside GFCI is highly unlikely to trip due to a fault in the wire between the breaker panel and the first GFCI. It might, but not guaranteed. So that wire is also suspect.

Other loads on the "Gen" breaker could be anything, but bear in mind that they are not likely to be BIG loads, because you can easily load the interior outlets with 15 amps using a coffee maker, toaster, and so on. Any appliance sharing that circuit is likely to be small. Certainly not the microwave, and probably not a residential or two-way fridge...especially one that also runs on an inverter that demands as much as 8 amps all by itself. I could be wrong on this...but it wouldn't make sense to hang a residential fridge on the same circuit as the interior outlets. But it WOULD make sense for the "Gen" circuit to feed 120 volts to the inverter...more on that below.

From what I can see, you have a big, honkin' residential fridge on a 1000 watt inverter. That inverter on its own can draw 84 AMPS at 12 volts and over 8 amps on 120 volts. Most home fridges enjoy a dedicated circuit. Yours should as well.

The process of elimination may be helpful to rule out some appliances, because some of the circuits may be labeled to identify what they feed. But something on the "Gen" circuit breaker is "leaking voltage" enough to trip the GFCI...but not enough to trip the "Gen" breaker.

Note that your panel breaker is NOT a GFCI, so unless the current leak exceeds its 15 amp rating, it will not trip. This has to do with a voltage leak to ground....not excess current. That's why the GFCI on the pedestal won't tolerate it but the inside breaker will.

Years ago, I found a manufacturer's cabinet screw literally driven through a 14/2 wire in my rig, and then only backed out enough to no longer penetrate the wire. No doubt this was discovered in testing the rig and trouble-shooting the dead short created by the screw. The SOB doing the work was too lazy to remove the screw entirely and to open the wire jacket and add some electrical tape to the black or white wire in the jacket that had been compromised by the screw. Backing out the screw restored the function of the circuit, and so the "technician" left it as is.

Wade in with an open mind and don't be surprised if you discover a staple or screw creating a problem...and that fastener might be coming up through the floor from below...or coming through from outside the cabinet space where the rat's nest of wires is. A screw tip may have chaffed its way through a wire jacket. (I had that with the gravity fill pipe on the same camper I mentioned...after a couple years, I had a big hole in my fill pipe from an errant screw drive by the same SOB no doubt!!)

If you don't see an obvious "screw up", remove the appliance(s) on the "Gen" circuit one at a time and test see if the pedestal outlet is happy, then reconnect to see if any one of them trips the GFCI after restoring its connection.

Why didn't this show up sooner?

If you routinely connect to a 30 or 50 amp outlet on a park pedestal, nothing says those outlets are GFCI protected...MOST LIKELY NOT. I suspect the one on YOUR pedestal is not. So a little ground fault leak won't shut down your rig UNLESS you use a smart adapter between your rig's plug and the pedestal. But that little 20 amp GFCI may have just saved your bacon. It's a "smart" connection rather than a "dumb" connection.

Find and correct this problem. You are almost there, because you've already isolated it to a single circuit INSIDE the rig. There's no problem between the pedestal and the converter and breaker panel...it's all downstream of the "Gen" breaker...a very limited number of options.

A bit more sleuthing and you'll be home free.

P.S. There's nothing to be afraid of when removing the breaker panel...so long as you are disconnected from shore power...with ONE NOTABLE EXCEPTION. That inverter connected to your battery bank and powering the fridge should be treated with respect and turned off. It probably connects to the battery bank with what amounts to welding cable, and a dead short on the 6 volt side will make 84 amps worth of sparks...unpleasant at minimum. And on the 120 volt side, there are, well, 120 volts. Shut this down if there's any chance of getting tangled up in this thing.

Remove the front cover (often 4 brass machine screws) and gently remove converter from the cabinet...usually 4 wood screws. Gently slide out the panel while watching to make sure nothing falls out (e.g. a loose set screw on a breaker allowing a wire to come adrift). Expect a rat's nest, but you need only worry about what's connected to the "Gen" breaker and the associated white and bare wires connected to the bus bar.

Look to ensure that the (usually) bare center conductor wire on the offending circuit is well tied into what might be a bundle of bare wires that might be wire-nutted together, or far more likely the bare wire or white wire on that circuit isn't solidly connected to a straight to a bus bar on the circuit breaker panel. I mention the wire nut scenario, because there's no tellin' with RV assemblers. At any rate, the GFCI won't be happy if these connections aren't tight and secure.

If an appliance seems to be the culprit...say the furnace or something else...you could make absolutely sure by jury-rigging a male plug onto the end of the wire feeding the appliance and plugging it into an extension cord that can reach the 20 amp GFCI on the pedestal. If there is a ground fault in the appliance, it will trip the GFCI. A plug like this is available at any hardware store and is easy to install and use again and again. https://www.grainger.com/product/4A2...P7A1P:20501231

Given that your residential fridge is tied into a 1000 watt inverter, I'd be surprised if it's not on a dedicated 120 volt shore power circuit, and it's likely (not guaranteed) that the inverter has a built in transfer switch to feed shore power to the fridge when shore power is available and automatically switch to the battery bank when shore power is not available. I could be wrong on this...but that's cheap technology, so I'd be surprised if that isn't the case. Illustration: https://smile.amazon.com/Aims-PICOGL...4955847&sr=8-9 Not all inverters have transfer switches and not all inverters have conventional AC outlets, but it's possible to have both.

Coming full circle, if the "Gen" breaker feeds the fridge thru the 1000 watt inverter, there are two possible culprits. The inverter may have a ground fault...possibly in the transfer switch or elsewhere...and then the fridge could have a fault. But to complicate things, your fridge should continue running, because as soon as shore power stops, guess what, it's running on the batteries through the inverter.

If that's the case, my bet is that the fridge has a conventional plug that plugs into the inverter at a conventional outlet. If so, pull the plug and connect the fridge to shore power directly and see what happens. If it trips, it's the fridge. If it doesn't, it's the inverter/transfer switch.
If the fridge is "hard wired" to the inverter, you can still disconnect, add your handy male 15 amp plug to the wire going to the fridge and test.

A mind bender for sure, but you are lucky to have stumbled into this due to the kluge connecting to a 20 amp outlet on your pedestal.
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Old 11-10-2020, 09:14 AM   #13
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Thanks for all the replies!

The fridge has a standard plug on it that's plugged into an outlet behind the fridge. The simple test will be to just run an extension cord from the pedestal GFCI into the camper to the fridge and see if it trips.

I know for a fact that the only things on the GEN circuit are the fridge outlet, and 3 other outlets in the camper which had nothing plugged into them. I know for certain the fridge outlet is connected to the invertor, however i don't know if the entire GEN circuit is or if it's somehow just the fridge outlet.

If i'm going to always be connected to shore power, does it make sense to flip the breaker off for the invertor as it has it's own breaker in the box?
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