Is Low Voltage An Issue In Most RV Parks

[Sergiop]

Originally Posted by doanshop

I just put a call into relay techs down at power company I retired from they are going to look into this and get back to me. They and the lineman in the transformer shop rebuild and test transformers of all types. I will see if they can shed some light on this for me. Or should I say us.

Will be interesting to see what some pros think about the Hughes autoformer.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Mike134

I read it and as a licensed electrician it's garbage!!!! Lots of false statements in it.

Glad that proper trained electrical engineers are reviewing them in this type of use.

BTW do the units come with a UL label? if not I smell smoke

Titan Mike understands how they work better than the chump that wrote the article.

Glad to hear my college dollars spent on my electrical theory classes weren't wasted. [emoji106]

[Stingingfork]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Glad to hear my college dollars spent on my electrical theory classes weren't wasted. [emoji106]

So TitanMike with you being a Licensed Electrician you would be telling me I would be better off going with the Progressive Portable RV Surge Protector Portable EMS-PT30X RV Surge Protector over the Hughes Autoformers PWD30-EPO and the additional $130 for the Progressive would be a better and safer solution?

[itat]

I use a hard wired PI EMS every time we camp. I have a Hughes Autoformer but only use it when the EMS shuts off the power more than once due to low voltage.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XVQyiUW-T60

[Mike134]

Originally Posted by itat

I use a hard wired PI EMS every time we camp. I have a Hughes Autoformer but only use it when the EMS shuts off the power more than once due to low voltage.

Good video explaining how they work. Keep in mind each section of the code has its own committee of industry experts, and engineers.

https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-stand...&tab=committee

The side advocating that RV autotransformers are a non-issue consist of internet bloggers and forum know-it-alls. I've yet to see an electrical engineer agree with them.

Just my take on it after working as an electrician for 38 years.

[jimmarako]

Originally Posted by Mike134

The side advocating that RV autotransformers are a non-issue consist of internet bloggers and forum know-it-alls. I've yet to see an electrical engineer agree with them.

Just my take on it after working as an electrician for 38 years.

I'm an electrical engineer but I'll admit that I do not work in the power field. I see no problem with Autoformers. The video explained it well, they are just simple step up transformers. You can only draw the 30 or 50 amps the pedestal allows. Yes with the Autoformer you will draw a few extra amps that you would without one. The system will not "heat up" or have safety issues because of this.

The problem is that your allowed to run 10 sites with only 50% capacity. Thats stupid. Even 20 years ago that was stupid.

As an electrician for 38 years, what do you see as the problem? Instead of an auto former I can put 3 fans in my trailer while the AC is running. Thats extra power.

Jim M.

[Mikec557]

Just to play the devil's advocate...

What's the moral difference between one RVer using an autoformer to prevent damage to his one air conditioner and a big Class A running all three rooftop air conditioners dragging down the voltage for other RVers on his loop?

[jimmarako]

Originally Posted by Mikec557

Just to play the devil's advocate...

What's the moral difference between one RVer using an autoformer to prevent damage to his one air conditioner and a big Class A running all three rooftop air conditioners dragging down the voltage for other RVers on his loop?

Trick question, you shoot the good guy in the leg then try not to run over the bus load of nuns and kids from the orphanage.

I'll say no difference. Both are using the capability that they were "promised" when they checked in i.e. a 30A or 50A service. In reality we all dislike the rich guy showing up in his $175K big ass bus, and then sitting inside the whole time with cool air and expensive whiskey to boot.

Jim M.

[Mike134]

Originally Posted by jimmarako

I'm an electrical engineer but I'll admit that I do not work in the power field.

The problem is that your allowed to run 10 sites with only 50% capacity. Thats stupid. Even 20 years ago that was stupid.

As an electrician for 38 years, what do you see as the problem?

Jim M.

If your an EE you should know about demand factors that have been in use for 50 years. If you build a high rise condo with 50 units all having 100amp panels the incoming power to the building might be only 2000amps. Same with designing a campground. Power requirements are never sized in these examples as if all units run at 100% current draw.

Problem with autotransformers they make a brownout condition worse for everyone by further increasing the demand on the system.

[Mike134]

Just some food for thought.

How come the Microair company took their AC soft starter for RVs to UL labs for approval and received the label, but Huges has not for their boost transformer?

Perhaps it might fail their tests?

[Mikec557]

Originally Posted by jimmarako

Trick question, you shoot the good guy in the leg then try not to run over the bus load of nuns and kids from the orphanage.

I'll say no difference. Both are using the capability that they were "promised" when they checked in i.e. a 30A or 50A service. In reality we all dislike the rich guy showing up in his $175K big ass bus, and then sitting inside the whole time with cool air and expensive whiskey to boot.

Jim M.

Ding, ding, ding. Good eye. It is a trick question. It's meant to illustrate that there's a bigger picture with many facets and that no one is all wrong or all right. I don't think we can isolate one part of the picture without addressing some or all of the other parts.

I like the first half of your answer, each is just trying to use what they paid for when they rented their spot.

But I think the second half of your answer goes off the rails. I don't think we dislike the "rich guy" with the Class-A, three air conditioners, and expensive whiskey, who stay inside. Heck, if anything, they're some of the quietest camping neighbors. I think that part of the answer (no offense) is a red herring.

I think the following are fair game.

1. Campgrounds will never be wired to deliver full amperage to all spaces. But I think they should be wired to deliver enough amperage that all campers can run at least one air conditioner during the hot season. Maybe two. I think if they can't, then during the hot season they shouldn't rent out more spaces than they can service.

2. Campgrounds renting out every available space knowing the park and its electrical grid, is so old it can't provide adequate volt/amp to every space during its common hot season. Unexpected heat waves might be a topic here.

3. RVs that can pull/use nearly the max amps out of a 50 amp connection. Remember, that's a 100 amps of 120v. For example, big all electric Motorhome.

4. 30 Amp RVs that literally can only use 3600 watts. I for one think campgrounds should assure this space can run an air conditioner without damage during the hot season. If they can't, is this camper justified in using an autoformer to get what he paid for? (30A & no damage to the AC)

5. Other angles I can't think of without more coffee...

[vlamgat]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

An interesting attitude.

If the use of Autoformers is "outlawed" in Campgrounds don't you think it's being done for a good reason like SAFETY?

Autoformers are merely a method of extracting a higher voltage from a power system that's suffering voltage sag due to being overloaded. In order to do that they draw more current from the system and THAT's what heats up the electrical "infrastructure". If you need 3600 watts that's 30 amp at 120 volts. If the park voltage is down around 105 volts, for example, the Autoformer will have to draw almost 35 amps to produce the 3600 watts you need. Chances are under this example you may end up just "popping" the circuit breaker on the site's power pole.

Put enough Autoformers in service in an old park designed for RV's drawing less power and you may not burn anything down but it's certainly possible to cause major park electrical failure.

One might get away with it but if the park owner has an issue and finds a "tenant" using one against the rules (which they agreed to when they signed in) they might find themselves in Civil Court with the park owner asking for damages.

Like I said in the beginning, interesting attitude.

This is not correct. Its not how Autoformers work. They are just big capacitors that jump in to bridge low voltage spikes when the load on the system exceeds the amount that would sustain the rated power. They cannot do it for more than 30-40 seconds and are in many ways no different from Soft Start AC devices.

They are not "extracting" anything. Just bridging. After they discharge, they slowly recharge until the next spike comes along.

[Tabasco_Joe]

Originally Posted by Mikec557

Just to play the devil's advocate...

What's the moral difference between one RVer using an autoformer to prevent damage to his one air conditioner and a big Class A running all three rooftop air conditioners dragging down the voltage for other RVers on his loop?

Or a campground owner who has a system delivering out of spec voltages complaining about autotransformers?

[Mikec557]

Originally Posted by Tabasco_Joe

Or a campground owner who has a system delivering out of spec voltages complaining about autotransformers?

Good catch. Add that to my list in post #71.

[vlamgat]

Originally Posted by Mikec557

1. Campgrounds will never be wired to deliver full amperage to all spaces. But I think they should be wired to deliver enough amperage that all campers can run at least one air conditioner during the hot season. Maybe two. I think if they can't, then during the hot season they shouldn't rent out more spaces than they can service.

2. Campgrounds renting out every available space knowing the park and its electrical grid, is so old it can't provide adequate volt/amp to every space during its common hot season. Unexpected heat waves might be a topic here.

3. RVs that can pull/use nearly the max amps out of a 50 amp connection. Remember, that's a 100 amps of 120v. For example, big all electric Motorhome.

4. 30 Amp RVs that literally can only use 3600 watts. I for one think campgrounds should assure this space can run an air conditioner without damage during the hot season. If they can't, is this camper justified in using an autoformer to get what he paid for? (30A & no damage to the AC)

5. Other angles I can't think of without more coffee...

I have discussed these points with a few CG owners over the years and their answers are very much the same. They all have to manage within a relatively strict seasonal requirement. And because RV/TT usage is perceived by many owners to be a "cheap" or "affordable" or any other nuance for less than full service vacation/stay, there is resistance to increasing their ADTR (Average Daily Transient Rate) regardless of service offered. So upgrading to offer essentially a full service to every spot is simply not affordable because at the moment, most will not pay.

Next alternative was to upgrade only certain spots; or just the 50 amp ones that are more likely to be the heaviest loaded. All have said that this is a practical nightmare because their CGs were built eons ago and the effect would be the same as rewiring the entire site.

The only thing I found all agreed was that they would lift generator quiet hours with notice to all campers on hot summer nights and ask people to use their generators so that some may have power at all. One way proposed was to drop the availability of 50 amp power from all pedestals thereby rationing power usage to one AC or transfer the burden to those with generators. Unpopular - definitely but with notice its a take it or leave it thing.

[Tabasco_Joe]

Originally Posted by doanshop

You might want to read this https://hughesautoformers.com/run-yo...arding-nfpa70/

Something Hughes should have pointed out is that using an autotransformer to resolve low voltage issues could improve the load on a campground if that load is largely air-conditioning. Typically, AC motors lose 3% to 5% in efficiency when run at the extremes of their designed voltage. Especially low voltage.
They could also point out that at low voltage the higher currents in the RV increase voltage loss which exacerbates the issue.

[jimmarako]

Originally Posted by Mikec557

But I think the second half of your answer goes off the rails. I don't think we dislike the "rich guy" with the Class-A, three air conditioners, and expensive whiskey, who stay inside. Heck, if anything, they're some of the quietest camping neighbors. I think that part of the answer (no offense) is a red herring.

Yes that part was a joke. How people spend their money is there choice. Maybe full timers with no home. Who knows.

Your thoughts on this make sense. It will get tougher down the road as more and more stuff goes electrical. Like fridges, even ovens and heat..... Don't forget cars and trucks. I saw a Tesla plugged in at one campground.

We were in Vermont this year. In the area we were a lot of the campgrounds were older. Ours put us in a 20A site. Yes 20. Good thing it was cool so we didn't need the AC. But even the dehumidifier pulls 7A so that took a good chunk. While there we looked around. So campgrounds said no AC use period. Others said use at your own risk. Not sure we'll be heading north again. :-(

Jim M.

[Tabasco_Joe]

Originally Posted by Mikec557

But I think the second half of your answer goes off the rails. I don't think we dislike the "rich guy" with the Class-A, three air conditioners, and expensive whiskey, who stay inside. Heck, if anything, they're some of the quietest camping neighbors. I think that part of the answer (no offense) is a red herring.

My beef is they aren't sharing the whiskey.

[Mike134]

Originally Posted by vlamgat

This is not correct. Its not how Autoformers work. They are just big capacitors that jump in to bridge low voltage spikes when the load on the system exceeds the amount that would sustain the rated power. They cannot do it for more than 30-40 seconds and are in many ways no different from Soft Start AC devices.

They are not "extracting" anything. Just bridging. After they discharge, they slowly recharge until the next spike comes along.

you may want to rethink your statement.
now if the Huges is an autoformer using capacitors and not a true autotransformer then it's worthless in an extended brownout,

https://www.electricalclassroom.com/...plications.%20

[NMWildcat]

If I ever have an electrical problem in an RV park, that will be the last time I stay there until they upgrade, and I will share my experience online. If they don't keep up with the changing RVers demands, they won't be a desirable destination for long, even when demand is as high as it is now.
We stay at full hookup RV parks in southern AZ during the summer for various reasons. Some high end resorts and some low budget Mom and Pop parks. All of them have upgraded their electric over the years to keep up. And you can bet every RV is running every a/c 24/7 when it's 116° outside as it was this June. I haven't had any electric problems anywhere.
If a park has a few bad electrical incidents they get downgraded immediately by the ever present social media which can definitely impact their bottom line.
That being said, when back east I have been at a few parks where after I checked the pedestal with my meter and my eyes, I wouldn't plug in. But those were only overnight stays at a cheap park for convenience so I didn't really care. I haven't run into that in the SW. Don't know what that says, but that is my experience.
If I ever get a wild hair, I might use an EMS, but can't see ever wanting a Hughes autoformer or even a real autotransformer, no matter how they work