Is there a shortage of 400 ah lithium batteries?

[gonepackin]

August 25th we signed purchase paperwork on a new C2C20XGTA 2023 Coachmen Cross Trail missing its 400 an Lithium battery. Salesman explained the audible beeping was the battery warning indicator and the battery would arrive in a few days. Today is September 12 and still no battery.
Is there a lithium battery supply shortage...or should we RUN (we haven't taken possession yet?)

[TitanMike]

I doubt there's a shortage but rather just none stocked close to the dealer. A quick check online shows many 400ah lifepo4 batteries available with delivery dates starting around 9/19.

As for "running"? For me it would depend on the quality of the battery they're offering. Did they tell you the brand they're supplying?

There can be a large variation in quality and customer service. Some actually have US based Customer Service and a simplified warranty system if needed. Others are strictly overseas based and if a problem the customer can end up with a worthless battery that could cost them a fair chunk of change to dispose of.

One question I'd have for the dealer is whether or not they would be involved in any warranty claim should that happen. Usually not and the standard position is "take it up with the mfr. (Just like tires on a new vehicle-)

[Reverse_snowbird]

Have you checked with your dealer to make certain they ordered the battery a
and when the delivery will be? It's possible that there has been a 'glitch'
I wouldn't walk away from a deal just because they couldn't get a battery.

However, if I was on a timeline to get a rig for a trip, that would be different.

If you can get the same battery online and have the dealer install it while taking the cost off the agreed on price, that might be worth a try.

Welcome to the forum!

[gonepackin]

...salesman say many things.
Thanks for your replies. The delay has mucked things up and we have missed several good weather shake-down trips.
Next week we will go in-person and I will note battery mfg, stock charger info, warranty searches.
Ive never seen a vehicle dealer drag their feet closing a sale...for weeks!
...that makes me leery.

[Reverse_snowbird]

Don't fall for the 'it's a warranty issue'. It only becomes a warranty issue if you sign the final finance/delivery papers. Once you sign those papers, you move from the sales floor to the service department and you could be waiting months to get the work done.
It's the dealers responsibility to install the house battery.

At this point, you should probably be asking to talk to the manager and look online to see if anyone else near you has the same rig.
PLEASE don't sign the papers until everything is fixed to your satisfaction.

[PhilFromMaine]

Originally Posted by Reverse_snowbird

Don't fall for the 'it's a warranty issue'. It only becomes a warranty issue if you sign the final finance/delivery papers. Once you sign those papers, you move from the sales floor to the service department and you could be waiting months to get the work done.
It's the dealers responsibility to install the house battery.

At this point, you should probably be asking to talk to the manager and look online to see if anyone else near you has the same rig.
PLEASE don't sign the papers until everything is fixed to your satisfaction.

2X

[tomkatb]

In today’s economy on these batteries the supply ebbs and flows.

The SOK brand had issues. Shortages by models.

Getting the batteries from China to the US on boats is not a quick thing.

But, something is wrong here. Every day they hold an rv from sales costs them money! Can we assume they only have a small down payment?

I would negotiate a discount and bring your own battery. Installation is minutes.

[Chazman]

I would be very leery of this dealer. They make you wait eighteen days for a battery when you're spending that kind of money on a new rig? Imagine what it's going to be like if you need warranty service, AFTER they've made their money off you.

[PhilFromMaine]

Originally Posted by tomkatb

In today’s economy on these batteries the supply ebbs and flows.

The SOK brand had issues. Shortages by models.

Getting the batteries from China to the US on boats is not a quick thing.

But, something is wrong here. Every day they hold an rv from sales costs them money! Can we assume they only have a small down payment?

I would negotiate a discount and bring your own battery. Installation is minutes.

Great Idea Tom! Also keep in mind that depending who get elected POTUS, there may be a substantial tariff on imported batteries from China as per the recent presidential debates.

Looking at Amazon, you can have a 400AH lifepo4 LiTime battery delivered in six days. LiTime has a decent reputation predicated on posts on this forum.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by PhilFromMaine

Great Idea Tom! Also keep in mind that depending who get elected POTUS, there may be a substantial tariff on imported batteries from China as per the recent presidential debates.

Looking at Amazon, you can have a 400AH lifepo4 LiTime battery delivered in six days. LiTime has a decent reputation predicated on posts on this forum.

Not so sure about LiTime based on Tom Morton's (Morton's on the Move youtube viseo) testing of LiTime and four other Lifepo4 batteries. Of the four LiTime fared terrible as well as one other.

One thing Tom's video revealed is questionable use of safety ratings like UL, CE, etc.

[PhilFromMaine]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Not so sure about LiTime based on Tom Morton's (Morton's on the Move youtube viseo) testing of LiTime and four other Lifepo4 batteries. Of the four LiTime fared terrible as well as one other.

One thing Tom's video revealed is questionable use of safety ratings like UL, CE, etc.

I predicated my post on comments here by actual users and Will Prowse's inspections and tests. I do believe that "Morton on the Move" has, or did have, a financial relationship with BattleBorn battery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy3hga_P5YY&t=61s

[TitanMike]

Yes he did. He also stated they had no say in his testing. Also, he had good things to say about 1 or two of the other batteries.

I think the fact that all tests were as equal as possible the weakness of LiTime was clear. Even the battleborn batteries were subjected to the same abuse as the rest with no holds barred.

As for Will Prowse and his tests, he's not an electrical engineer and Tom Morton IS.

[PhilFromMaine]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Yes he did. He also stated they had no say in his testing. Also, he had good things to say about 1 or two of the other batteries.

I think the fact that all tests were as equal as possible the weakness of LiTime was clear. Even the battleborn batteries were subjected to the same abuse as the rest with no holds barred.

As for Will Prowse and his tests, he's not an electrical engineer and Tom Morton IS.

You don't have to be an electrical engineer to review, test, and give an opinion on something as simple as a lifepo4 battery. I can guarantee you Will Prowse has tested far more batteries than Mr. Morton and that he has as much or more expertise than Mr. Morton. Plus he doesn't get paid in any way for his reviews.

We have had this discussion before. I have nothing against BB batteries except for the fact that you are paying 2-3 times more money per AH for them. That is a pretty big fact to overcome.


IMO, Epoch batteries are number one right now, but they are so popular they can't keep them on the "shelf".

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by PhilFromMaine

You don't have to be an electrical engineer to review, test, and give an opinion on something as simple as a lifepo4 battery. I can guarantee you Will Prowse has tested far more batteries than Mr. Morton and that he has as much or more expertise than Mr. Morton. Plus he doesn't get paid in any way for his reviews.

We have had this discussion before. I have nothing against BB batteries except for the fact that you are paying 2-3 times more money per AH for them. That is a pretty big fact to overcome.


IMO, Epoch batteries are number one right now, but they are so popular they can't keep them on the "shelf".

Anyone can offer an opinion. Expert opinions come from those with credentials, can withstand peer review, and are accepted as evidence in court should litigation occur due to damage/loss.

Experts come to their conclusions based on accepted testing methods (ASTM, IEEE, etc.)

I'm pretty sure using an inverter and heat gun for capacity testing doesn't qualify as a Constant Current test load under any testing method standards but it's popular among the youtube crowd.

As for LiFePo4 batteries (the assembly, not merely the individual cells) are more complex than one thinks. The cells are one component. Then the BMS, internal wiring, connections, and the case as it brings all the components together.

If all one thinks about is the cost per watt/hr or kw/hr they're overlooking where the mfr cheaps out on quality to make a price point.

[Aussieguy]

whatever load you put on them.... it is still a load. measuring (equipment) is more important

a heat gun is fairly constant but Master Will now uses a bank of huge resistors
each resistor is almost the size of a forearm combined together they can produce a load of about 800amps
can almost feel the heat from them over here...


I like his approach as it is more aimed at explaining things to the NON electrical engineer audience.
explaining stuff in laymans term but also getting into the nitty gritty

And he's not shy to say what he thinks.

Whatever you watch and whomever you listen too it is still up to the each viewer on whether the concepts, explanations and results are believable and trustworthy.


Edit ... additional
unfortunately his focus is more on the 48v all in ones good for a house system
hardly ever does 12v or RV based reviews any more
but his old videos are still pertinent, for the basic and you just have to look to see if a piece of equipment has been updated.


His reviews on MPPT got me thinking that I can get away with a cheaper MPPT as I don't push any where near the current or charging times on my battery setup
Keeping it simple just so can use the 12v side without Inverter

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Aussieguy

whatever load you put on them.... it is still a load. measuring (equipment) is more important

a heat gun is fairly constant but Master Will now uses a bank of huge resistors
each resistor is almost the size of a forearm combined together they can produce a load of about 800amps
can almost feel the heat from them over here...


I like his approach as it is more aimed at explaining things to the NON electrical engineer audience.
explaining stuff in laymans term but also getting into the nitty gritty

And he's not shy to say what he thinks.

Whatever you watch and whomever you listen too it is still up to the each viewer on whether the concepts, explanations and results are believable and trustworthy.

The reason a constant current load is essential for accurate capacity testing is because a battery's voltage will decrease as it discharges. As the voltage decreases, as DOD increases, so does the current decrease, and this results in an erronious calculation of amp hours.

That is unless one wants to sit and constantly adjust current for 20 hours or whatever rate on has been chosen.

FWIW, resistors will cause a decrease in current as they heat up. That's why constant current test devices employ current regulation in them.

[boondocking]

[Aussieguy]

capacity is the least concern
put a 800amp load and see what that does to the connections wiring and components

bet you would find a bad battery connection real fast

I have yet to even think if I ever want to test my battery for capacity (ah)
it does its job takes care of overnight loads and has spare capacity just in case it rains like it did today...
Had to change underwear today the lightning was so bad this morning
(story for another day perhaps)

Now the battery recharges most days by 2pm...
if it perform like that for only half the predicted battery life I will be happy

If it dies .... harvest the cells and see what happens especially for the price I paid

[PhilFromMaine]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Anyone can offer an opinion. Expert opinions come from those with credentials, can withstand peer review, and are accepted as evidence in court should litigation occur due to damage/loss.

Experts come to their conclusions based on accepted testing methods (ASTM, IEEE, etc.)

I'm pretty sure using an inverter and heat gun for capacity testing doesn't qualify as a Constant Current test load under any testing method standards but it's popular among the youtube crowd.

As for LiFePo4 batteries (the assembly, not merely the individual cells) are more complex than one thinks. The cells are one component. Then the BMS, internal wiring, connections, and the case as it brings all the components together.

If all one thinks about is the cost per watt/hr or kw/hr they're overlooking where the mfr cheaps out on quality to make a price point.

I disagree with everything you said above. For starters think of Richard Feynman of the Manhattan Project and the Challenger Disaster Committee. He destroyed all the engineers and formula touting scientists from Morton Thiocol by putting a piece of rubber gasket into his freezer over night to illustrate it's unfitness in freezing temperatures- checkmate, Morton Thiocol threw in the towel.

Basic Science and RV lifepo4 batteries are simple, but sometimes companies try to make it sound complex for their own personal gain.

For calculating battery capacity in a RV lifepo4 battery any of the differences in methodology you mentioned would be insignificant. Even if it by chance it was significant (which it isn't), people like Will Prowse test all their batteries using the same protocols making all their capacity tests fair.

As to wiring, quality of connections, and the quality of BMSs, Prowse covers that aspect in all his videos extremely well. Morton, on the other hand, is a full time RVer and will give you great advice where to boondock in the Boise, Idaho area. I don't think Prowse ever strays from batteries and solar with his presentations.

In our discussion, the price differential between BB and Li is so great that plus or minus hypothetically an AH is very insignificant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dmWqHR7b9w

[jlankford]

Originally Posted by PhilFromMaine

...
In our discussion, the price differential between BB and Li is so great that plus or minus hypothetically an AH is very insignificant.
...

I just noticed the LiTime 100Ah battery I paid $370 for one year ago is currently selling for $220. Meanwhile, the comparable Battleborn battery is $925.
One year later, my LiTime battery bank is working just fine. And their customer service has always been very responsive for me - I'm a satisfied customer. Even if there are some differences in quality, there is no way that a Battleborn battery is worth more than four times the price of a competitive battery.