Mystery Circuit?

[Larry-NC]

Perhaps someone can help unravel this mystery.

I found that one of the breakers in the power panel of our 2007 Forest River Cherokee was tripped. It immediately trips when reset, indicating a very low resistance aka "dead short."

The mystery is that everything seems to be working. The breaker in question is labelled "GENERA" which could be General or Generator(?) or something else. (See attached image) It's not either of the two outlet circuits; both work. The microwave works. This unit doesn't have electric hot water, just propane with 12v ignition.

The cable to the breaker in question is the same 14 AWG NM ("Romex") as the rest of the original wiring. When I pulled the power panel out of the wall, not only is it the identical cable, but it is run in a bundle with the other cables through the front bulkhead and up to the top of the trailer for distribution.

So what I am asking is for ideas as to what function it feeds. Can anyone help to extend this list:

• General Outlets (work fine)
• Converter (12 volts, works)
• GFI outlets (work fine)
• Microwave (works fine, own circuit)
• Refrigerator (residential type, on one of the working outlets)
• Air conditioner (worked last summer, didn't think to try it this weekend--and it's supposed to be on a different breaker anyway and it's turned off.*)
• As noted, the water heater does not use 120v, nor does the Suburban furnace.

* I've heard rumors that Forest River isn't real consistent in connecting things, so it's possible, I suppose, that the A/C cable doesn't go to the A/C breaker and the AC is shorted.

I've disconnected the cable from the breaker for now, just for safety.

I've heard rumors that it's difficult to get wiring diagrams from Forest River so I'm not expecting magic, but I could use some thoughtful brainstorming ideas. What could I be overlooking? And what does GENERA stand for, anyway?

Larry in NC
2007 Forest River Cherokee stationary at a resort in Virginia. It's a 38P or 39P, title says one thing, indicia on the side says another.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Perhaps someone can help unravel this mystery.

I found that one of the breakers in the power panel of our 2007 Forest River Cherokee was tripped. It immediately trips when reset, indicating a very low resistance aka "dead short."

The mystery is that everything seems to be working. The breaker in question is labelled "GENERA" which could be General or Generator(?) or something else. (See attached image) It's not either of the two outlet circuits; both work. The microwave works. This unit doesn't have electric hot water, just propane with 12v ignition.

The cable to the breaker in question is the same 14 AWG NM ("Romex") as the rest of the original wiring. When I pulled the power panel out of the wall, not only is it the identical cable, but it is run in a bundle with the other cables through the front bulkhead and up to the top of the trailer for distribution.

So what I am asking is for ideas as to what function it feeds. Can anyone help to extend this list:

• General Outlets (work fine)
• Converter (12 volts, works)
• GFI outlets (work fine)
• Microwave (works fine, own circuit)
• Refrigerator (residential type, on one of the working outlets)
• Air conditioner (worked last summer, didn't think to try it this weekend--and it's supposed to be on a different breaker anyway and it's turned off.*)
• As noted, the water heater does not use 120v, nor does the Suburban furnace.

* I've heard rumors that Forest River isn't real consistent in connecting things, so it's possible, I suppose, that the A/C cable doesn't go to the A/C breaker and the AC is shorted.

.

I've heard rumors that it's difficult to get wiring diagrams from Forest River so I'm not expecting magic, but I could use some thoughtful brainstorming ideas. What could I be overlooking? And what does GENERA stand for, anyway?

Larry in NC
2007 Forest River Cherokee stationary at a resort in Virginia. It's a 38P or 39P, title says one thing, indicia on the side says another.

How many handles are on those breakers cropped off in the picture? Is the tripping breaker 15 amps? Possible roof vent exhaust pre-wired circuit. All outlets in storage areas working? Prewire for Vacuum? Mine is in the basement. outside outlet working?

[TitanMike]

Does the unit have a second A/C? Could be a "pre-wire" for one.

Might pull the forward vent trim ring and see if you can find a loose wire hanging out in the area.

Maybe someone figured "unused, better protect it" and just put a wire-nut around the end of both wires.

If everything you use works with the wire disconnected then just assume it goes somewhere to something you don't need. Easier to sleep at night that way

[cavie]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Does the unit have a second A/C? Could be a "pre-wire" for one.

Might pull the forward vent trim ring and see if you can find a loose wire hanging out in the area.

Maybe someone figured "unused, better protect it" and just put a wire-nut around the end of both wires.

If everything you use works with the wire disconnected then just assume it goes somewhere to something you don't need. Easier to sleep at night that way

The cable is #14 ga. Too light for an A/C. Possible roof vent.

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by cavie

How many handles are on those breakers cropped off in the picture? Is the tripping breaker 15 amps?

I've attached another picture. The top two (both "MAIN") are a 30 amp and 20 amp. All the rest are 15 amp. I've attached a different picture, slightly out of focus but shows the handles. The full height breaker at the bottom appears to have been added by a previous owner. It goes to a single outlet in the "baggage compartment" next to the power panel. This picture shows the tripped 15 amp breaker.

Originally Posted by cavie

Possible roof vent exhaust pre-wired circuit.

The roof vents are 12v.

Originally Posted by cavie

All outlets in storage areas working?

No toybox on this model. The added outlet I referred to above is faces the trailer interior but is wired through a conveniently-located baggage compartment next to the power panel. It works fine, and is a different type of NM cable than the failing cable which matches the original.

Originally Posted by cavie

Prewire for Vacuum? Mine is in the basement

1. I don't believe it was even an option on this model. The Owner's Manual says nothing about one.
2. As noted before, the cable runs up, overhead, not down.

Originally Posted by cavie

Outside outlet working?

The outside outlet, kitchen outlet, and lavatory outlet are all on the breaker labelled "GFI" and are working fine. (The breaker isn't a GFCI breaker. The wiring goes to a GFCI outlet in the lavatory and the other two are daisy-chained from that.)

I don't mean to be negative. Those are great ideas! Keep them coming!

Larry

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Does the unit have a second A/C? Could be a "pre-wire" for one.

Only a single A/C. It's centrally located so I don't expect there was an option. The Forest River manuals are pretty generic, seem to cover a lot of models, but I don't recall reading about a second A/C option.

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Might pull the forward vent trim ring and see if you can find a loose wire hanging out in the area.

It wouldn't be a loose wire. It would have to be a shorted pair as you suggest below.

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Maybe someone figured "unused, better protect it" and just put a wire-nut around the end of both wires.

Hmm. Let's see. Short a pair at one end and then properly trim out and anchor the cable at the other end and connect black to breaker, white to neutral bus, and bare to ground bus. Not sure anyone would actually be that silly. And if it were done at the factory, not sure how it would have passed final inspection with a popped breaker.

I don't mean to be negative. Thanks for the suggestions and keep them coming!

Larry

[llr]

I think if you count the positions it is the water heater and not the general.

You said you don't have electric hot water. How have you verified this? what model is your WH? It may have been wired for an electric element option even if you don't have it as most units have the gas/electric combined water heaters.

[cavie]

your not negative, just a little nieve to think the factory doesn't make mistakes.

I do have a few questions. What is a door slide? What brand of panel do you have? SQ D? Murry/ ITE/Siemens? You have a mix match of breakers in your pictures. Somebody doesn't know what they are doing. I was hoping for a picture with the description but if I count the door slide, I have it figured out with the problem child being GENERA. A breaker would not be feeding a Generator. General would be the circuit not protected by the GFI circuit. Genera is Mexican slang for General. (sorry, if been in this business 45 years.)

OK now I see it said DOOR SIDE. I assume from that your bath and kitchen are on the same side? Now I'm really cornfused!

[bubbles]

Looks like the breaker for the water heater and it would be a 15amp. Are you sure your WH isn't also electric?

[Flybob]

I would recheck the water heater. Very few WH in recent TT/5er are propane only. If the WH switch was turned on and power was applied to the unit without water in it the element would burn up almost immediately. In many cases when the element burns out it causes a dead short. If you have a Suburban WH check the lower left side of the WH in the outside panel for a black rocker switch.

[Larry-NC]

Great questions! Thank you for responding.

Originally Posted by llr

I think if you count the positions it is the water heater and not the general.

The printed sticker is mounted too low and at a different scale than the breaker pitch. It's "too small" so as you count down from the top it's misleading. That's why I put those red frames onto the pictures.

Counting from the top.

• MAIN is the top two breakers, the 30 and 20 amp ones
• A/C is the first 15 amp one. It's the first half of the second breaker.
• GFI is next one. GFI is the second half of the second breaker.
• MICRO is the first half of the third breaker. Flipping this one does indeed cut power to the microwave oven.
• GENERA is the second half of the third breaker. This is the mystery circuit. You can see that it's tripped in the photo.
• The next breaker (a full-height, not half-height like the others, nor the same brand) was added later and goes to an added 120v convenience outlet. The sticker shows "Water Heater" but apparently there was nothing there before the new breaker and outlet were added.You can barely see this one in the pictures as it doesn't have the white printing on it. It's 15 amp and I can trace the wiring end to end to the outlet 2 feet away.

Originally Posted by llr

You said you don't have electric hot water. How have you verified this?

Great question!

It is the same brand heater, but not the same model as in our other trailer, a 22 foot Nash. The Nash has the 120v & 12v-propane model and it has a 120v switch on the wall, a 120v switch in the compartment with the heater, a thermostat on the back of the heater, and a heating element as well as a separate switch to enable the propane feature. The Forest River we're talking about here has only the propane switch. The water heater service manual states that three water heater models were made: AC only, gas only, and both. I'm pretty sure that this one is gas only. When I flip the only water heater switch there is (the propane switch), I hear the fan start running and seven seconds later I hear the whump! of ignition.

Originally Posted by llr

It may have been wired for an electric element option even if you don't have it as most units have the gas/electric combined water heaters.

You're thinking that there could be wiring to the heater location, even though the heater doesn't have the electric option, right? That's possible, but I don't remember seeing any wiring in that area and I was just in there a few months ago doing mouse-prevention work.

I think I will have another look in that area next time we're there. Thanks for the great idea. I wonder if the mice gnawed something. I could only reach in with one arm through a small door as I stuffed steel wool alongside a vent pipe by the water heater.

Thanks for the suggestions. And if you have more ideas, please post them.

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Great questions! Thank you for responding.

The printed sticker is mounted too low and at a different scale than the breaker pitch. It's "too small" so as you count down from the top it's misleading. That's why I put those red frames onto the pictures.

Counting from the top.

• MAIN is the top two breakers, the 30 and 20 amp ones
• A/C is the first 15 amp one. It's the first half of the second breaker.
• GFI is next one. GFI is the second half of the second breaker.
• MICRO is the first half of the third breaker. Flipping this one does indeed cut power to the microwave oven.
• GENERA is the second half of the third breaker. This is the mystery circuit. You can see that it's tripped in the photo.
• The next breaker (a full-height, not half-height like the others, nor the same brand) was added later and goes to an added 120v convenience outlet. The sticker shows "Water Heater" but apparently there was nothing there before the new breaker and outlet were added.You can barely see this one in the pictures as it doesn't have the white printing on it. It's 15 amp and I can trace the wiring end to end to the outlet 2 feet away.

Great question!

It is the same brand heater, but not the same model as in our other trailer, a 22 foot Nash. The Nash has the 120v & 12v-propane model and it has a 120v switch on the wall, a 120v switch in the compartment with the heater, a thermostat on the back of the heater, and a heating element as well as a separate switch to enable the propane feature. The Forest River we're talking about here has only the propane switch. The water heater service manual states that three water heater models were made: AC only, gas only, and both. I'm pretty sure that this one is gas only. When I flip the only water heater switch there is (the propane switch), I hear the fan start running and seven seconds later I hear the whump! of ignition.

You're thinking that there could be wiring to the heater location, even though the heater doesn't have the electric option, right? That's possible, but I don't remember seeing any wiring in that area and I was just in there a few months ago doing mouse-prevention work.

I think I will have another look in that area next time we're there. Thanks for the great idea. I wonder if the mice gnawed something. I could only reach in with one arm through a small door as I stuffed steel wool alongside a vent pipe by the water heater.

Thanks for the suggestions. And if you have more ideas, please post them.

I've never heard of a water heater with a fan. Can you post the make & model of your water heater? That might help.

[cavie]

NOPE. You only have one main breaker. 30 amp.
the 20 amp is the A/C. Then you can count from there.
That's why I'm confused by "Door Side". That's why I have to assume that "door side" means the bath and kitchen outlets like mine is.

I told you that you have a miss match of breakers. Different brands. Somebody has screwed your panel and the labeling up.

45 year Licensed Master Electrician.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Great questions! Thank you for responding.

The printed sticker is mounted too low and at a different scale than the breaker pitch. It's "too small" so as you count down from the top it's misleading. That's why I put those red frames onto the pictures.

Counting from the top.

• MAIN is the top two breakers, the 30 and 20 amp ones
• A/C is the first 15 amp one. It's the first half of the second breaker.
• GFI is next one. GFI is the second half of the second breaker.
• MICRO is the first half of the third breaker. Flipping this one does indeed cut power to the microwave oven.
• GENERA is the second half of the third breaker. This is the mystery circuit. You can see that it's tripped in the photo.
• The next breaker (a full-height, not half-height like the others, nor the same brand) was added later and goes to an added 120v convenience outlet. The sticker shows "Water Heater" but apparently there was nothing there before the new breaker and outlet were added.You can barely see this one in the pictures as it doesn't have the white printing on it. It's 15 amp and I can trace the wiring end to end to the outlet 2 feet away.

Great question!

It is the same brand heater, but not the same model as in our other trailer, a 22 foot Nash. The Nash has the 120v & 12v-propane model and it has a 120v switch on the wall, a 120v switch in the compartment with the heater, a thermostat on the back of the heater, and a heating element as well as a separate switch to enable the propane feature. The Forest River we're talking about here has only the propane switch. The water heater service manual states that three water heater models were made: AC only, gas only, and both. I'm pretty sure that this one is gas only. When I flip the only water heater switch there is (the propane switch), I hear the fan start running and seven seconds later I hear the whump! of ignition.

You're thinking that there could be wiring to the heater location, even though the heater doesn't have the electric option, right? That's possible, but I don't remember seeing any wiring in that area and I was just in there a few months ago doing mouse-prevention work.

I think I will have another look in that area next time we're there. Thanks for the great idea. I wonder if the mice gnawed something. I could only reach in with one arm through a small door as I stuffed steel wool alongside a vent pipe by the water heater.

Thanks for the suggestions. And if you have more ideas, please post them.

See red and blue above. The main is only the 30 amp breaker. Most all air-conditioners are going to be on a 20 amp circuit. See if this one helps

[llr]

Also the 20 amp breaker should be the AC. You would never have different size breakers for the main. You would have a single 30 or 2 50

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by cavie

I do have a few questions. What is a door slide? What brand of panel do you have? SQ D? Murry/ ITE/Siemens? You have a mix match of breakers in your pictures. Somebody doesn't know what they are doing. I was hoping for a picture with the description but if I count the door slide, I have it figured out with the problem child being GENERA. A breaker would not be feeding a Generator. General would be the circuit not protected by the GFI circuit. Genera is Mexican slang for General. (sorry, if been in this business 45 years.)

OK now I see it said DOOR SIDE. I assume from that your bath and kitchen are on the same side? Now I'm really cornfused!

In one of the pictures you can indeed see that GENERA is tripped. Handle is right in the center, neither off nor on.

The panel is part of the WFCO 8955AN unit. The original breakers are SquareD (see the photos). The 15 amp ones are SquareD AB-5585. That's their Homeline product line, carried inexpensively at Home Depot. It doesn't surprise me that a former owner picked up a full-height breaker rather than a half-height one.

I agree that the note on the GFI circuit means that it includes the outside outlet alongside the door as well as the outlets in the lavatory and kitchen. The lavatory is on the north side. Kitchen sink and outside outlet are on the south side.

I also agree that GENERA should be the rest of the outlets but that's not the case. (It wouldn't surprise me that the black wires were swapped around. I probably should check to confirm where the outlets and converter and A/C connect and move things around to match the label, once I figure out what this mystery wire is.)

Thanks again for your consultation. Great help!

Larry

[wmtire]

Also make sure you don't have an electric element as per a Suburban model water heater. This thread will show you where to look:

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ore-36197.html

[cavie]

When I flip the only water heater switch there is (the propane switch), I hear the fan start running and seven seconds later I hear the whump! of ignition.

There is no fan involved. What you are hearing is the ignitor try to light the propane. Remove your outside WH cover. If you find a black on/off switch you have a gas/electric heater. Your trailer may very well be wired for electric WH and not used but shorted out. My trailer has 2 WH AC switches. One outside and one under the sink.

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by bubbles

Looks like the breaker for the water heater and it would be a 15amp. Are you sure your WH isn't also electric?

Nope. The label was pasted on a little too low. In another post I've elaborated with a count from the top down. Good point, though. When I was doing this work I had to count it three times to convince myself I had it right. I actually flipped the one labelled MICRO and made sure the microwave oven went off, just to check myself.

I'm absolutely certain that the water heater is propane only. I've elaborated on this in another post as well. I think that's a generic Forest River label. Based on what I read in forums about the availability of wiring information and diagrams, it doesn't surprise me.

Thanks for the good questions. Please keep them coming.

Larry

[cavie]

The most common breakers used in RV's are SQ D Homeline, Cuttler Hammer, and Seimens. however, and here is the kicker, the big three do not make the panels. Therefore they take no responsibility for what goes on after they leave the factory. The RV industry has you by the gonads.