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07-10-2020, 12:54 PM
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#1
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 21
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New Battery/Converter Wire size?
In an attempt to be able to dry camp a little longer I’m in the process of upgrading my battery setup. Upgrading from a single group 24 battery to two 6V golf cart Trojan T105’s. Through my research I have learned it is beneficial to also upgrade the converter in my TT from the stock single stage to a multistage charger. I elected to order the PD 4655 converter from progressive dynamics to replace my WFCO-8955. I will also be adding a better battery monitor as part of this upgrade.
I was about to dive in when I read I may need to also upgrade to a thicker gauge wire due to voltage drop as it pertains to recharging the new battery setup. I’m trying to confirm if I need to do this? And if so, what gauge do I need to install? I checked today and currently I have 8AWG running from the battery to the converter. When I traced the wire back, it’s about 20-25 ft. If I were to straight shot it, it probably would be 15 feet. It looks as though it goes from the battery, to the kill switch, then from there into a junction box (not sure if I need to do anything special there?), and then back and through the floor where the converter is located.
Other questions…
- Does the ground wire need to be the same gauge?
- Should I also get same gauge for connecting the two 6v batteries together in series?
- Is there a specific type of battery cable I should use? Is welding cable ok or stick with actual battery cable?
- Also read something about also needing to change out the in-line fuse or fuse block, is that needed?
TIA for any help. I feel like I'm close to figuring all this out.
__________________
2017 Rockwood Roo
2018 GMC Sierra 1500 Denali
Columbus, Ohio
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07-10-2020, 01:15 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 4,510
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Is someone trying to sell you stuff you don't need?
The WFCO converter in my 15-year old Roo is multi-stage and handles my pair of Trojan 6v batteries (in series) with ease. I'm betting yours will too. No changes in the wiring needed as the charging/discharging amperages are not that high.
-- Chuck
__________________
2006 Roo 23SS behind a 2017 Ford Expedition
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07-10-2020, 05:35 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: North of Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck_S
Is someone trying to sell you stuff you don't need?
The WFCO converter in my 15-year old Roo is multi-stage and handles my pair of Trojan 6v batteries (in series) with ease. I'm betting yours will too. No changes in the wiring needed as the charging/discharging amperages are not that high.
-- Chuck
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The reason the charging current going into your two T-105's isn't that high maw well be because of the #8 awg wire the factory installed. If you don't mind taking all day to recharge the batteries when using a generator or on shore power, yes the WFCO converter will do the job.
If one wants to stay with a WFCO converter and wants shorter charging times with more current, a larger wire is necessary in order to reduce voltage drop across the distance from converter to battery.
No salesman BS or internet bologna. Just fact.
If you want a full 55 amp to flow 20 feet and have only a 2% voltage drop, you'll need a #4 awg wire for the main run and ground connections to frame on each end.
In reality the high current will only flow for a short time as lead acid batteries cause the charge current to taler off as their voltage rises. Having the larger wire in place will keep the converter from prematurely switching from bulk charge rate to absorbtion prematurely.
About the only thing the small OEM wire size is good for is getting enough power out of the battery to run lights, water pump, etc. A fraction of what is needed to charge batteries in the shortest possible time (which still takes a long time due to the battery chemistry).
__________________
"A wise man can change his mind. A fool never will." (Japanese Proverb)
"You only grow old when you run out of new things to do"
2018 Flagstaff Micro Lite 25BDS
2023 f-150 SCREW XLT 3.5 Ecoboost (The result of a $68,000 oil change )
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07-10-2020, 05:44 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 426
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If you are dry camping how do you charge ?
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07-10-2020, 06:39 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: North of Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderingbob
If you are dry camping how do you charge ?
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Don't know who you're asking but standard answer would be generator or solar.
If generator the benefit to upgrading wire from converter to batteries would ge greatly reduced charge time.
__________________
"A wise man can change his mind. A fool never will." (Japanese Proverb)
"You only grow old when you run out of new things to do"
2018 Flagstaff Micro Lite 25BDS
2023 f-150 SCREW XLT 3.5 Ecoboost (The result of a $68,000 oil change )
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07-11-2020, 01:08 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,832
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4 gauge per Titan Mike and whatever gauge battery cable is on there now as the jumper between your two 6V batts.
Good luck!
__________________
________
Cam
2015 Georgetown 280DS
2019 Vespa Primavera 150's (pair)
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07-12-2020, 09:08 AM
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#7
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 21
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Thanks Titan Mike. Still trying to determine what all wires need replaced from #8 to #4. I snapped a few pics. One is of the fuse panel, the bottom thicker red wire is the one coming up through the floor from the battery. Are you saying I should also replace the white ground wire with #4 as well? I believe the top right white wire on the fuse panel, goes from there over to the ground on the left AC side, however I also noticed 2 white wires grounded underneath the trailer as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanMike
The reason the charging current going into your two T-105's isn't that high maw well be because of the #8 awg wire the factory installed. If you don't mind taking all day to recharge the batteries when using a generator or on shore power, yes the WFCO converter will do the job.
If one wants to stay with a WFCO converter and wants shorter charging times with more current, a larger wire is necessary in order to reduce voltage drop across the distance from converter to battery.
No salesman BS or internet bologna. Just fact.
If you want a full 55 amp to flow 20 feet and have only a 2% voltage drop, you'll need a #4 awg wire for the main run and ground connections to frame on each end.
In reality the high current will only flow for a short time as lead acid batteries cause the charge current to taler off as their voltage rises. Having the larger wire in place will keep the converter from prematurely switching from bulk charge rate to absorbtion prematurely.
About the only thing the small OEM wire size is good for is getting enough power out of the battery to run lights, water pump, etc. A fraction of what is needed to charge batteries in the shortest possible time (which still takes a long time due to the battery chemistry).
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__________________
2017 Rockwood Roo
2018 GMC Sierra 1500 Denali
Columbus, Ohio
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07-12-2020, 10:36 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Big brown desert
Posts: 3,003
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But is the #4 going to fit in the lug for the dc panel?
And FWIW- I am running your same setup on the #8 cable and very happy with my recharge times. From 50% to 90 in about 3 hours. My troubles were from the WFCO converter that would not go into bulk mode. Changed to a PD and all is well now.
__________________
2014 Stealth Evo 2850- "Woodstock"
2011 Toyota Tundra Rock Crawler TRD 5.7- "Clifford"
2013 Honda Accord Coupe V6 w/Track Pack- "Julia"
Just glad to get away
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07-12-2020, 10:54 AM
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#9
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 21
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Good to know Hondaman, thanks for the reply. I’d much prefer to not have to try and change out the wire, would be much easier to just swap out the converter and add my two new batteries. And I was wondering the same thing about #4 fitting in lug. Just to be clear you go from 50%-90% in 3 hours charging via a generator?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HONDAMAN174
But is the #4 going to fit in the lug for the dc panel?
And FWIW- I am running your same setup on the #8 cable and very happy with my recharge times. From 50% to 90 in about 3 hours. My troubles were from the WFCO converter that would not go into bulk mode. Changed to a PD and all is well now.
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07-12-2020, 11:03 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Baraboo, WI
Posts: 605
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I am just reporting my findings with my WFCO. No matter how low my battery got, the WFCO would not go into bulk charging mode. It would take a long time to get the battery fully charged. I just started using my free-standing 40 amp charger to bring my batteries up to full charge. I replaced the original converter to a PD converter and am very happy that I spent the money on it. It took me a couple of hours to do the conversion. I did add an extra 6 gauge wire from the converter to the battery to carry the current.
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07-12-2020, 11:40 AM
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#11
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 21
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When you added the 6 gauge wire, did you remove the old #8? Or did you just add it. I知 a little uncertain on what all is involved to upgrade the wire (or if I really need to). As i stated above (and showed in the pics) from my batteries the wire goes to the disconnect switch, then to a junction box under front of trailer, and then back and up through floor to fuse panel I believe. Did you have to replace all of that wire? Also ground wires as wel to #6? TIA
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarabooBob
I am just reporting my findings with my WFCO. No matter how low my battery got, the WFCO would not go into bulk charging mode. It would take a long time to get the battery fully charged. I just started using my free-standing 40 amp charger to bring my batteries up to full charge. I replaced the original converter to a PD converter and am very happy that I spent the money on it. It took me a couple of hours to do the conversion. I did add an extra 6 gauge wire from the converter to the battery to carry the current.
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07-12-2020, 12:00 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: North of Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaddy33
Thanks Titan Mike. Still trying to determine what all wires need replaced from #8 to #4. I snapped a few pics. One is of the fuse panel, the bottom thicker red wire is the one coming up through the floor from the battery. Are you saying I should also replace the white ground wire with #4 as well? I believe the top right white wire on the fuse panel, goes from there over to the ground on the left AC side, however I also noticed 2 white wires grounded underneath the trailer as well.
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When talking about electricity you'll often hear the word "Circuit". Electricity has to flow through a complete circuit in order to do it's work.
If you upgrade your Positive wire between converter and battery then it's important that the Negative wires that connect to the frame be upgraded as well in order to get the full effect. Only wire that is important in an upgrade is the one from converter to battery and from frame to battery and converter. There may be other ground connections but they will be lower current carriers.
As for the lugs on the circuit board handling the #4 wire, they are significantly larger than those used at other locations and the wire will fit.
If using welding cable, the strands of the wire are quite fine and can lead to frustration when feeding into the lug. It helps to back the set screw out so it's flush with the inside of the lug. Probe with a piece of stiff wire to make sure it's not protruding into the inside passage in the lug yet not so far out that wire will hang up on the set screw hole.
I like to "tin" the wire with solder so the strands are all held in effectively a single strand.
My method:
Strip wire and twist strands tight.
Apply some non corrosive (rosin based) flux.
Using a soldering gun with plenty of heat (remember, #4 wire is pretty big) apply a small amount of solder to the fluxed wire and keep heating. When the small solder "ball" on the tip of the gun starts to flow, touch solder to the wire and let just enough flow into it so it looks like a glob of mercury, nice and shiny.
When wire is fully tinned I like to tap the wire on the edge of a solid object to shake off any excess solder before it solidifies. If any strands get out of line, press them back with the tip of the hot iron but don't worry about melting the rest, just make the wire end round so it fits the lug.
Once done proceed with installation in the lug and make sure the screw is TIGHT. It should press be tight enough to actually squeeze the tinned wire into tight contact with as much of the lug as possible.
That's just how I like to do it so I don't end up with a connection that has wire strands sprouting from the lug like hair hanging out of a teenagers ball cap
__________________
"A wise man can change his mind. A fool never will." (Japanese Proverb)
"You only grow old when you run out of new things to do"
2018 Flagstaff Micro Lite 25BDS
2023 f-150 SCREW XLT 3.5 Ecoboost (The result of a $68,000 oil change )
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07-12-2020, 12:58 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Big brown desert
Posts: 3,003
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That痴 what I知 seeing now with my PD converter. I used to run my generator for 5 hours and only come up with 80% state of charge with WFCO unit. After the second set of batteries were shot, I decided to change out the unit. Much happier now.
I also added an ammeter to the charging side to see how much power the converter was sending to the batteries. Based off of phase of charging cycle and amount of power being sent gives me a really good idea of state of charge.
Something like this:
bayite DC 5-120V 100A Mini Digital Current Voltage Amp Meter Ammeter Gauge with Hall Effect Sensor Transformer https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DDQM6Z4..._g80cFb6NV1V0Y
I put it just outside the converter box
__________________
2014 Stealth Evo 2850- "Woodstock"
2011 Toyota Tundra Rock Crawler TRD 5.7- "Clifford"
2013 Honda Accord Coupe V6 w/Track Pack- "Julia"
Just glad to get away
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07-12-2020, 01:22 PM
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#14
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Long time camper.
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 227
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TitanMike
As you suggested recently , I,ve been considering your idea of moving the converter to the front storage near the batteries and running Romax to power it. I suppose I値l use the exiting con/ bat cable to run the 12v back to the fuse box. Any issues with wire gauge for the return? How big of gauge for the romax?
Samtummo
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07-12-2020, 01:23 PM
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#15
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Long time camper.
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 227
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itanMike
As you suggested recently , I,ve been considering your idea of moving the converter to the front storage near the batteries and running Romax to power it. I suppose I値l use the exiting con/ bat cable to run the 12v back to the fuse box. Any issues with wire gauge for the return? How big of gauge for the romax?
Samtummo
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07-12-2020, 01:43 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: North of Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samTummo
TitanMike
As you suggested recently , I,ve been considering your idea of moving the converter to the front storage near the batteries and running Romax to power it. I suppose I値l use the exiting con/ bat cable to run the 12v back to the fuse box. Any issues with wire gauge for the return? How big of gauge for the romax?
Samtummo
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The existing wire from the converter to the battery is usually more than enough to handle power needs with minimal voltage drop as rarely will any high current item be running from the power distribution panel. Furnace is probably the highest current item and it can range from 3 amp to just under 10 amp, depending on size of furnace. Battery charging current has always been the problem with the factory wire as charging current can run as high as the max output of the converter. If the wire is high resistance then the converter "sees" a higher voltage than exists at the battery and it switches to the next lowest mode.
When you mount your converter near the battery, first the converter will need to be a "deck mount" and not a part that is normally integrated into the power distribution center. You need one that has an enclosure so it can work as a stand alone unit. Example would be a Progressive Dynamics 9100 series or 9200 series with Charge Wizard built in.
Most converters in the 40-60 amp range are rated at 1,000 watts so they draw less than 10 amp. A piece of 14-2 w/ground Romex will be more than adequate. Just attach to existing circuit breaker for converter where you disconnected the other converter. Run your Romex to a location close to the batteries and connect to converter. If you install an outlet box in the new location and plug in new converter, it makes it easy to turn off converter if you need to kill the power to the converter for any reason. No need to run back to the circuit breaker.
FWIW, I'm a member of the "Not Happy With WFCO Club" and have replaced mine with a Progressive Dynamics converter (deck mount). MUCH better unit.
__________________
"A wise man can change his mind. A fool never will." (Japanese Proverb)
"You only grow old when you run out of new things to do"
2018 Flagstaff Micro Lite 25BDS
2023 f-150 SCREW XLT 3.5 Ecoboost (The result of a $68,000 oil change )
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07-13-2020, 09:45 PM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 4,549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HONDAMAN174
But is the #4 going to fit in the lug for the dc panel? ...
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Yes, it does. I just did that. Unfortunately I used THHN which I sourced at the local big box. It's not very flexible. It puts some pressure on the 12V fuse panel. I'm going to replace that with #4 welding cable which should be more pliable. But, regardless of the inflexibilty, the wire gauge will fit in the lug.
I didn't run #4 the entire length because I prepaid for solar prep. That was a bad idea, but it leaves me with three #8 conductors from the power center to the battery. (Main charger plus positive and negative solar wires.) I don't have to buy wire or fish it through the frame.
I used the #4 as a stub from the converter lug and spliced it to the 3 x #8 conductors. That combination resolves to #3 wire. The #4 stub is smaller but short, so little loss there. I tried #2 on the converter lug. No good, at least not with THHN. If I find myself with a scrap of #2 welding cable, I'll test that, but I don't think it would change anything.
The issue I'm dealing with now is that I have to combine the 3 x #8 cables at the front end. I'm working on that now but somebody at the factory over-tightened a connection on the main 40A mini-breaker. In trying to remove it, the post seems to have broken off internally. It spins in place. I haven't tested if it still conducts but I can't trust it to break the circuit when needed. A new one is one the way.
If you run #4 from the charger to the battery, you won't have to deal with that, but you will have to deal with running the wire.
Edit:
Quote:
... My troubles were from the WFCO converter that would not go into bulk mode. Changed to a PD and all is well now.
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With the larger wire, my WFCO goes into bulk mode. If you had larger wire, your charge time with a PD would be faster still.
Wire is cheaper than a new PD, but not easier.
__________________
TV: 2021 Ford F-150 4WD XLT Crew w/ 3.5L EB & HDPP, payload: 2,416#.
RV: 2020 Rockwood Mini-Lite 2507S, Propride 3P hitch w/ 1400# spring bars
Camping nights: 2021, 52; 2022, 99; 2023, 88; 2024, TBD (Est: 80+)
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07-13-2020, 09:55 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 4,549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanMike
... As for the lugs on the circuit board handling the #4 wire, they are significantly larger than those used at other locations and the wire will fit.
If using welding cable, the strands of the wire are quite fine and can lead to frustration when feeding into the lug. It helps to back the set screw out so it's flush with the inside of the lug. Probe with a piece of stiff wire to make sure it's not protruding into the inside passage in the lug yet not so far out that wire will hang up on the set screw hole. ...
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For those considering it but not having done it yet, the circuit board with the lugs can be popped loose from the housing without having to disconnect everything. That makes it easier to manipulate when connecting the new wire. It snaps back in place. Don't break the plastic tabs!
__________________
TV: 2021 Ford F-150 4WD XLT Crew w/ 3.5L EB & HDPP, payload: 2,416#.
RV: 2020 Rockwood Mini-Lite 2507S, Propride 3P hitch w/ 1400# spring bars
Camping nights: 2021, 52; 2022, 99; 2023, 88; 2024, TBD (Est: 80+)
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07-13-2020, 10:01 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 4,549
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PS: Kudos to TitanMike for guidance. I'm a relative noob at major electrical renovations in an RV. I'm sharing my information from the perspective of someone who just did it. The pain is still fresh, but worthwhile.
Kudos also to babock from whom I learned new stuff that I applied in my project.
__________________
TV: 2021 Ford F-150 4WD XLT Crew w/ 3.5L EB & HDPP, payload: 2,416#.
RV: 2020 Rockwood Mini-Lite 2507S, Propride 3P hitch w/ 1400# spring bars
Camping nights: 2021, 52; 2022, 99; 2023, 88; 2024, TBD (Est: 80+)
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07-14-2020, 01:34 PM
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#20
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 21
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What's the best way to fish the new 4 gauge wire through? behind the converter is the plastic housing for the entire electrical breaker box unit. I believe my battery wire comes from behind that, do you need to take the entire unit out? not sure how much play there is with all the other wires.
Also am I correct the only negative wires I need to replace is the one from the battery to the ground on the chasis up at the front of the trailer, and the one that goes from the circuit board over to the ground on the AC side? at least I think that's where that white wire in my pic above goes. Thanks for the help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscowles
For those considering it but not having done it yet, the circuit board with the lugs can be popped loose from the housing without having to disconnect everything. That makes it easier to manipulate when connecting the new wire. It snaps back in place. Don't break the plastic tabs!
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__________________
2017 Rockwood Roo
2018 GMC Sierra 1500 Denali
Columbus, Ohio
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