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Old 04-27-2016, 09:18 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Teamfour View Post
30 amp to 15 amp adapter
A perfect example of why conclusions cannot be made from a summary, symptom, or hearsay. Conclusions must be made by first learning what is actually happening - what must actually exists. Protector reported correctly. You have created what looks like a failure to the protector. Reason why must be obvious before making any conclusion from subjective data (ie that indicator light).

Essential facts were not provided (ie that adaptor). Another serious mistake. Never short your help of essential facts (especially numbers).

Begin by learning simple differences between a 20 amp circuit and the various 30 amp circuits. Without those details, then an informed conclusion is impossible. AND do not even consider repairing (making any changes to) that protector. These reasons are why we always need a professional or an informed friend.
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:03 AM   #22
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A perfect example of why conclusions cannot be made from a summary, symptom, or hearsay. Conclusions must be made by first learning what is actually happening - what must actually exists. Protector reported correctly. You have created what looks like a failure to the protector. Reason why must be obvious before making any conclusion from subjective data (ie that indicator light).

Essential facts were not provided (ie that adaptor). Another serious mistake. Never short your help of essential facts (especially numbers).

Begin by learning simple differences between a 20 amp circuit and the various 30 amp circuits. Without those details, then an informed conclusion is impossible. AND do not even consider repairing (making any changes to) that protector. These reasons are why we always need a professional or an informed friend.
Westom, I'm not sure you are following this correctly. The OP was having a problem with the surge guard showing an open neutral. He was not using ANY adapter, and was hooking up to the campground pedestals when encountering this error from the surge guard.

It was pointed out that the surge guard itself could be bad or have a bad LED light, by the manufacturer themselves. The OP then decided to do a secondary test with the surge guard on his home outlet using an adapter. The surge guard also reported an open neutral on his home outlet.....thus he was able to absolutely verify that the surge guard itself is bad.

He gave all the pertinent facts we needed to troubleshoot in his previous posts...as well as following up with a secondary test to absolutely confirm that the surge guard is bad. He did great and we all learned that the LED can and do go bad in these units, which we can use this information that the OP taught us to help other members in the future.
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:09 AM   #23
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Westom, I'm not sure you are following this correctly. The OP was having a problem with the surge guard showing an open neutral. He was not using ANY adapter, and was hooking up to the campground pedestals when encountering this error from the surge guard.

It was pointed out that the surge guard itself could be bad or have a bad LED light, by the manufacturer themselves. The OP then decided to do a secondary test with the surge guard on his home outlet using an adapter. The surge guard also reported an open neutral on his home outlet.....thus he was able to verify that the surge guard itself is bad.

He gave all the pertinent facts we needed to troubleshoot in his previous posts...as well as following up with a secondary test to absolutely confirm that the surge guard is bad.

Thanks! You articulated my planned response much more tactfully than I would have.
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:27 AM   #24
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He gave all the pertinent facts we needed to troubleshoot in his previous posts...
Once that adaptor is used, then tester cannot report reliable information. That was relevant and missing information.
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:31 AM   #25
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Once that adaptor is used, then tester cannot report reliable information. That was relevant and missing information.
Westom, your posts seem to be be baiting or perhaps trolling, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and allow them. Since the OP has identified and knows the problem, we can take it a little off-topic here slightly.

WHY do you believe the circuit tester cannot report reliable information if a properly wired adapter is used between the outlet and circuit tester?

Also as stated, the OP only used the adapter on his house circuit to confirm the surge guard readings were bad on the campground pedestals (where he used no adapter). He didn't use an adapter on the campground pedestal which is where his initial problem and post started...so how could that be pertinent information to the original problem? That's what I believe you are not correctly following.
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:44 AM   #26
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Also as stated, the OP only used the adapter on his house circuit to confirm the surge guard readings were bad on the campground pedestals (where he used no adapter).
He only said he used that adaptor to do testing. I did not see a reply that said that adaptor was not being used elsewhere. No post definitively said an LED had failed. I responded to what he said when asked how he tested a 30/50 amp circuit with a 20 amp tester. Reply technically addressed what was provided.
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:52 AM   #27
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I have the same surge protector as you. Plugged it in with TT power cord plugged into it but not to TT. Mine read correctly (no open neutral), so I believe you're right that your surge protector is faulty. Hope this helps.
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:56 AM   #28
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He only said he used that adaptor to do testing. I did not see a reply that said that adaptor was not being used elsewhere. No post definitively said an LED had failed. I responded to what he said when asked how he tested a 30/50 amp circuit with a 20 amp tester. Reply technically addressed what was provided.
Westom, this will be my last post on this subject because it's starting to become a circle argument. I can only suggest you start at the first post and reread it.

There would be absolutely NO NEED WHATSOEVER to use a 15/20 amp adapter on the campground pedestal. He was plugging his 30 amp surge guard directly in to the pedestals 30 amp outlet....as stated. He wouldn't say it was being used at the campground, as it wasn't and thus no need to state that.

Also as stated, to confirm the surge guards LED was burned out (0r other problem) and thus giving him bad readings..... he used a 15/20 amp adapter to plug the surge guard directly into an outlet at his house to confirm with a second test, the readings he was getting out of the surge guard at the campground pedestals. He also used the outlet tester on his home outlet BEFORE using adapter and thus it confirmed his home outlet was correct. When using the adapter and plugging the surge guard into it, the surge guard once again gave bad readings....thus confirming that the surge guard is bad. His house is the ONLY place he would NEED an adapter to plug the surge guard into.

Anyhow, I was able to follow his process and hope you can now too.

The OP did good, and was able to find the problem, and we all should be more educated for it.

EDIT: also the way you wrote 30/50 amp circuit in your quoted response above almost lead me to think you may think a 30 amp circuit is perhaps a 120/240 volts split phase...which only the 50 amp is. A 30 amp, using the correct wire size is connected just like a 15 or 20 amp outlet is, using one 120 volt hot wire, one ground wire. and one neutral wire. This is why a 3-prong circuit tester will also work on a 30 amp outlet (utilizing a proper adapter).
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Old 04-27-2016, 12:28 PM   #29
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Again, wmtire has clearly explained my process and outcome. Thank you! I thought my process was pretty logical. I have quite a bit of experience in troubleshooting processes, and did my best to eliminate variables while being consistent in the testing. Although the blade configuration for a 30 amp plug and 20 amp plug is different, the wiring configuration is the same. The adapter merely changes the blade configuration. If I had rewired my 20 amp receptacle at my house to be a 30 amp RV receptacle, eliminating the adapter, the results would have been the same. So the supposed issue with using an adapter is a non-issue.

Relevant to my original post, I now wonder if a low-end surge guard like the one I have is even worth using. My Sperry circuit tester can perform the same circuitry checks as the surge guard, just without the surge protection. And from what I read, 2100 joules protection is not really any protection at all.
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Old 04-27-2016, 12:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by westom View Post
He only said he used that adaptor to do testing. I did not see a reply that said that adaptor was not being used elsewhere. No post definitively said an LED had failed. I responded to what he said when asked how he tested a 30/50 amp circuit with a 20 amp tester. Reply technically addressed what was provided.
I believe you need to read the whole thread to follow what the OP has found out. I would agree with WMTIRE you seem to be baiting or trolling in this case. I followed the thread as well as others here have. the OP confirmed the same results with a 20 amp to 30 amp adapter and the surge guard.
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Old 04-27-2016, 12:40 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Teamfour View Post
Again, wmtire has clearly explained my process and outcome. Thank you! I thought my process was pretty logical. I have quite a bit of experience in troubleshooting processes, and did my best to eliminate variables while being consistent in the testing. Although the blade configuration for a 30 amp plug and 20 amp plug is different, the wiring configuration is the same. The adapter merely changes the blade configuration. If I had rewired my 20 amp receptacle at my house to be a 30 amp RV receptacle, eliminating the adapter, the results would have been the same. So the supposed issue with using an adapter is a non-issue.

Relevant to my original post, I now wonder if a low-end surge guard like the one I have is even worth using. My Sperry circuit tester can perform the same circuitry checks as the surge guard, just without the surge protection. And from what I read, 2100 joules protection is not really any protection at all.
Hello,

Good detective work and troubleshooting.

As far as 2100 joules that will stop lightning and blow a breaker when it dead shorts. Under voltage or other disturbances not so much. Many mentioned a progressive as a solution, I have a Camco that does the same thing at half the price. Metering the park pedestal with a meter will give you confidence the receptacle is wired correctly avoiding hot skin or 240 volt etc.
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Old 04-27-2016, 12:49 PM   #32
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Hello,

Good detective work and troubleshooting.

As far as 2100 joules that will stop lightning and blow a breaker when it dead shorts. Under voltage or other disturbances not so much. Many mentioned a progressive as a solution, I have a Camco that does the same thing at half the price. Metering the park pedestal with a meter will give you confidence the receptacle is wired correctly avoiding hot skin or 240 volt etc.
Thanks. I do have a voltage monitor plugged into one of the outlets in the TT. I get an audible alarm when the voltage exceeds 132v or goes below 108v. So the only protection I would be missing without the surge guard would be a lightning strike or a massive spike?
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Old 04-27-2016, 04:59 PM   #33
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As far as 2100 joules that will stop lightning and blow a breaker when it dead shorts.
True for a type of disturbance that typically does not cause damage. 2100 joules (not all are utilized) is a disturbance so tiny as to be made irrelevant by what is already inside appliances.

Another and typically destructive transient is not averted by shunting between wires. In some cases, that shunt may even give a transient other destructive paths into appliances if located too close to appliances and too far from the pole.

This transient (completely different from other disturbances also called a surge) is averted when hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth. Protector can provide this effective protection when it absorbs little energy, does not 'stop' anything, and when tens or hundreds of thousands of joules are absorbed elsewhere.

This typically destructive type transient is not blocked by a breaker. How does a millimeter gap 'block' what three miles of sky cannot? Furthermore, this typically destructive transient is done in microseconds. Breaker takes milliseconds or longer to even consider tripping. It may trip if a protector is grossly undersized; fails catastrophically.

A protector that 'stops' or shunts is for a completely different disturbance typically made irrelevant by protection routinely found inside all appliances. Joules do nothing for under voltage or other disturbances. Other disturbances (ie undervoltage, open neutral, reverse polarity, frequency variation, harmonics, etc) are addressed by other features inside a protector.

A Progressive attached at the pole can make its 'joules' effective by connecting low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth. Effective because it never tries to 'stop lightning' and does not trip a breaker. Breaker might trip if a protector is grossly undersized; fails catastrophically. That to protect humans (ie avert fire); does not protect appliances.

Is lightning protection essential? Rarely in campgrounds. Since that potentially destructive disturbance might occur maybe once every seven years. And would be more than 2100 joules to be destructive. Progressive contains features necessary to protect from other and more frequent disturbances (surges) such as undervoltage or what might be apparent later due to an open neutral that exists now.
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Old 04-27-2016, 05:54 PM   #34
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True for a type of disturbance that typically does not cause damage....
Wow that is interesting and more than I asked for. Thanks. In your opinion then, is the type of surge guard I have worth using, given that I already check the pedestal before connecting the TT and I monitor line voltage inside the TT?
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Old 04-27-2016, 06:09 PM   #35
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In your opinion then, is the type of surge guard I have worth using, given that I already check the pedestal before connecting the TT and I monitor line voltage inside the TT?
Common campground anomalies can be apparent after hookup. For example, an open neutral can go undetected until appliances draw a load in a particular manner. Actually, an open neutral is not typical. A 'not conductive enough' neutral is more common and potentially destructive. That (and other disturbances that might appear later) is what a 'full time monitoring' protector would detect.

Monitoring is nice to know why something happens; so that a human can avert future damage. Protection is about reacting long before any human can. Humans are typically a least reliable solution (due to factors such as sleep, other activities, inattentiveness, and slow response).
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Old 04-27-2016, 06:28 PM   #36
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A 'not conductive enough' neutral is more common and potentially destructive.
That's a very valuable statement. A "not conductive enough" circuit will show up as good with a multi meter, since there is no current flowing. Unplug the meter and plug in the camper and load up the line, then the juice starts looking for a different path. Another great reason for a full time monitoring solution.
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Old 04-27-2016, 06:37 PM   #37
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True for a type of disturbance that typically does not cause damage. 2100 joules (not all are utilized) is a disturbance so tiny as to be made irrelevant by what is already inside appliances.

Another and typically destructive transient is not averted by shunting between wires. In some cases, that shunt may even give a transient other destructive paths into appliances if located too close to appliances and too far from the pole.

This transient (completely different from other disturbances also called a surge) is averted when hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth. Protector can provide this effective protection when it absorbs little energy, does not 'stop' anything, and when tens or hundreds of thousands of joules are absorbed elsewhere.

This typically destructive type transient is not blocked by a breaker. How does a millimeter gap 'block' what three miles of sky cannot? Furthermore, this typically destructive transient is done in microseconds. Breaker takes milliseconds or longer to even consider tripping. It may trip if a protector is grossly undersized; fails catastrophically.

A protector that 'stops' or shunts is for a completely different disturbance typically made irrelevant by protection routinely found inside all appliances. Joules do nothing for under voltage or other disturbances. Other disturbances (ie undervoltage, open neutral, reverse polarity, frequency variation, harmonics, etc) are addressed by other features inside a protector.

A Progressive attached at the pole can make its 'joules' effective by connecting low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth. Effective because it never tries to 'stop lightning' and does not trip a breaker. Breaker might trip if a protector is grossly undersized; fails catastrophically. That to protect humans (ie avert fire); does not protect appliances.

Is lightning protection essential? Rarely in campgrounds. Since that potentially destructive disturbance might occur maybe once every seven years. And would be more than 2100 joules to be destructive. Progressive contains features necessary to protect from other and more frequent disturbances (surges) such as undervoltage or what might be apparent later due to an open neutral that exists now.
I know all about grounding, lightning, surge suppression and 1000 ft towers in the sky.

As far as small disturbances, for the most part the only thing for 90% of the problems is over voltage (some guy wires it for 240 v) or low voltage and brown out increasing the current burning out motors or AC compressors. The average TV would accept any voltage 100 to 240 like most laptop power supplies.

Brown out, low voltage is the killer of all things good.

I carry a Fluke RMS voltmeter and clamp on ammeter. I guess I need to pack the polyphase surge suppressions and a sola autotransformer too!

If you want ultimate protection get a Autotransformer. Surges get absorbed in the Iron and all the L will swamp out noise as well.

To the OP.

You have a voltmeter, good tool. Also have high/low alarm. You have more than 98% of the camping population. When money allows by something new, checking with your tools will render information before you fry something that the jackalope wired wrong.
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