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Old 04-19-2021, 07:02 PM   #1
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Possible converter wiring issues

Hi folks,


I have a newly acquired 2020 Geo Pro G19FD that has "from the factory" solar installed. It has a Go Power GP-PWM-30-UL charge/controller on an inside wall, (1) 100W Go Power flexible solar panel on the roof and a single Group 27 deep cycle marine battery on the tongue. In testing that system to be sure everything was properly wired and working properly before doing any mods to improve the performance it seemed that I had some unexplained current loss from the battery over night. Trouble shooting this led me to the following oddness associated with the camper converter.


According to the label the on-board converter/electrical panel is a WF-8735/8740. All the comments to follow are based on NO shore hookup at all to the camper. Everything is solar and battery ONLY.


There are 7 DC fuses in the DC section. The bottom one (F7) is the 40A Reverse Polarity protection, (F6) is the 30A battery fuse. The other 5 fuses are 15A each for the various lights, fans, TV/Radio, CO detector, etc.


Here is the odd part. In general if you pull one of the accessory fuses, breaking that DC circuit, a red LED beside the fuse connector lights immediately notifying you of an open circuit/blown fuse. However, in my case, the red LED for fuse F1 (Monitor Panel) and F2 (powered Hitch Light) do NOT light/alarm when they are removed. F3, F4, and F5 all respond as expected, lighting their red LED if you pull the fuse. No matter how many fuses (F1-F5) are in or out the results are always the same, F1 & F2 do NOT light, F3-F5 DO light.


In addition to that oddity, under certain conditions of testing, the interior ceiling lights (all factory installed LED units, which have a master controlling ON/OFF switch on the cabinet mounted accessory control panel on the left cabinet as you enter the outside door) go into a dim, HALF ON condition if certain fuses are removed. (I haven't recorded the specifics of which fuses cause that issue yet.)


I know and understand DC voltage well and AC not so well but I've never worked with any of the converter units in any camper in the past. I have verified that all "screw-tight" connections are tight. What are the thoughts of the electricians on the forum here? Surely the red LED fuse blown reaction is not normal. I suppose the red LEDs could just be bad, maybe?


Thanks for your input.
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Old 04-19-2021, 07:04 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
Hi folks,


I have a newly acquired 2020 Geo Pro G19FD that has "from the factory" solar installed. It has a Go Power GP-PWM-30-UL charge/controller on an inside wall, (1) 100W Go Power flexible solar panel on the roof and a single Group 27 deep cycle marine battery on the tongue. In testing that system to be sure everything was properly wired and working properly before doing any mods to improve the performance it seemed that I had some unexplained current loss from the battery over night. Trouble shooting this led me to the following oddness associated with the camper converter.


According to the label the on-board converter/electrical panel is a WF-8735/8740. All the comments to follow are based on NO shore hookup at all to the camper. Everything is solar and battery ONLY.


There are 7 DC fuses in the DC section. The bottom one (F7) is the 40A Reverse Polarity protection, (F6) is the 30A battery fuse. The other 5 fuses are 15A each for the various lights, fans, TV/Radio, CO detector, etc.


Here is the odd part. In general if you pull one of the accessory fuses, breaking that DC circuit, a red LED beside the fuse connector lights immediately notifying you of an open circuit/blown fuse. However, in my case, the red LED for fuse F1 (Monitor Panel) and F2 (powered Hitch Light) do NOT light/alarm when they are removed. F3, F4, and F5 all respond as expected, lighting their red LED if you pull the fuse. No matter how many fuses (F1-F5) are in or out the results are always the same, F1 & F2 do NOT light, F3-F5 DO light.


In addition to that oddity, under certain conditions of testing, the interior ceiling lights (all factory installed LED units, which have a master controlling ON/OFF switch on the cabinet mounted accessory control panel on the left cabinet as you enter the outside door) go into a dim, HALF ON condition if certain fuses are removed. (I haven't recorded the specifics of which fuses cause that issue yet.)


I know and understand DC voltage well and AC not so well but I've never worked with any of the converter units in any camper in the past. I have verified that all "screw-tight" connections are tight. What are the thoughts of the electricians on the forum here? Surely the red LED fuse blown reaction is not normal. I suppose the red LEDs could just be bad, maybe?


Thanks for your input.
Sounds like an open/bad ground somewhere.
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Old 04-19-2021, 07:12 PM   #3
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Are you thinking there in the converter unit area? Maybe pull all the covers off and go a little deeper inside?


Thanks.
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Old 04-19-2021, 07:25 PM   #4
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Sorry, I meant to attach a couple of pics. Let's see if this works.
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Old 04-19-2021, 07:26 PM   #5
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One more that I tried to turn around.
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
F1 (Monitor Panel) and F2 (powered Hitch Light) do NOT light/alarm when they are removed
The answer to this one is that, unless you're pressing a panel button or the hitch light is turned on, there's no completed circuit so the blown fuse indicator can't light up.
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:51 AM   #7
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(The OP): I might should have also mentioned that the factory installed solar package in this unit also includes a 1000W inverter. It was NOT turned ON or active in any way in any of these tests.


Bama, with fuses F1-F5 still removed if I turn the "Porch light" or the factory installed LED "Awning Lights" ON at the control panel on the cabinet inside the door, those lights do actually come ON and the red Alert LED does come ON beside F1. (How can they work if there is no fuse installed to complete the circuit?) However if I turn ON the Hitch Light (as indicated on the label for F2) that light also does come ON (no fuse present) but the red Alert LED does NOT come ON.


Thoughts?
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Old 04-20-2021, 01:12 PM   #8
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Think about this...

Think about this. You said you understood DC circuits. You should be able to follow this.

The blown/missing fuse indicators work like this:
  • Wired across each fuse are an LED and a resistor (probably 330 ohms) in series.
  • The LED requires a 1.5 volt drop before it starts to draw current and emit light.
  • When the fuse is good, no matter what the load, there's never 1.5 volts across the LED so it never lights.
  • When the fuse is blown/missing, current flows through the resistor+LED only if there is a load. The current is limited by the resistance of the 330 ohm series resistor plus the resistance of the load. (The more loads you turn on, the lower the resistance--loads in parallel--and the brighter the LED gets.)
  • The two circuits that are not illuminated have no loads. Put a load on them if you want to test the LEDs.
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Old 04-20-2021, 01:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
... with fuses F1-F5 still removed if I turn the "Porch light" or the factory installed LED "Awning Lights" ON at the control panel on the cabinet inside the door, those lights do actually come ON and the red Alert LED does come ON beside F1. (How can they work if there is no fuse installed to complete the circuit?) However if I turn ON the Hitch Light (as indicated on the label for F2) that light also does come ON (no fuse present) but the red Alert LED does NOT come ON.
Sounds like mislabeled and/or miswired circuits.

If you pull the fuse labeled Hitch light and the hitch light still works, then that's obviously not the right fuse for that light. That happens quite often. You'll have to go around and troubleshoot to find which fuse powers which circuit.
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:24 PM   #10
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As most others have already stated, the red light only comes on when there is something switched on that is on that circuit drawing current.
Its all those circuits that light red that are draining your battery. If you want to keep the battery charged, then turn off your battery disconnect. That will stop battery power from going to the distribution panel.


It's also possible that there are other items powered directly from the battery, that do not go through the distribution panel.


Some of your lighting issues do sound strange that they go dim, not off when you pull the fuse. You might check all the grounds for the dc circuits and make sure they are connected and the screws are in tight.
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:42 PM   #11
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No, no!

Quote:
Originally Posted by riengle View Post
Some of your lighting issues do sound strange that they go dim, not off when you pull the fuse. You might check all the grounds for the dc circuits and make sure they are connected and the screws are in tight.
No, no! Remember, the LED is in series with the 330 resistor and the load. If the load is very small (=high resistance, one LED light, for example), the LED will be dim, because only a small current flows. If the OP were to turn on a few more things on that circuit, the LED by the fuse would be brighter.
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:55 PM   #12
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@ Outsider
Switch on a load on that circuit and the LED will shine !
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Old 04-20-2021, 08:20 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by pierre t View Post
@ Outsider
Switch on a load on that circuit and the LED will shine !
Definitely. This type of "blown fuse indicator system was created when lights and many electronic devices drew far more current than we see in this energy conservative era.


All the more reason to have a multimeter with continuity test feature or just a simple VOM (volt/ohm meter) in the tool kit.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:13 PM   #14
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Bama & Larry,


I believe you are probably correct in your description and diagnosis of why there is no lit Alert LED at fuse F1 & F2 when the fuse is out. I did a little more testing using your posted input and it seems to follow your hypothesis.


So, as you said, the 3 circuits (F3, F4, F5) where the Alert LED is ON must have some amount of current leaking (load) through them and could be why my battery is losing some amount of charge overnight. I just bought a new $50 Klein DVM that will test for up to 10A of DC current presence to help in finding this leakage.



I guess one way to continue my search would be to re-install each fuse one at a time and see exactly what operates on that circuit. As the pictures I attached show the labels say:

F3: Appliances (I know the CO detector is on that circuit and I suspect the control module for the fridge is probably on it but I would think it is not "hot" until you press the ON button on the fridge - not sure.)

F4: Bath Fan (The water pump is also on this one.) Neither of these should be "hot".

F5: Radio/TV (The chassis on both of these stay "hot" all the time so that is part of the loss but should be very little.)


Any other suggestions?
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Old 04-21-2021, 06:48 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
Bama & Larry,


I believe you are probably correct in your description and diagnosis of why there is no lit Alert LED at fuse F1 & F2 when the fuse is out. I did a little more testing using your posted input and it seems to follow your hypothesis.


So, as you said, the 3 circuits (F3, F4, F5) where the Alert LED is ON must have some amount of current leaking (load) through them and could be why my battery is losing some amount of charge overnight. I just bought a new $50 Klein DVM that will test for up to 10A of DC current presence to help in finding this leakage.




I guess one way to continue my search would be to re-install each fuse one at a time and see exactly what operates on that circuit. As the pictures I attached show the labels say:

F3: Appliances (I know the CO detector is on that circuit and I suspect the control module for the fridge is probably on it but I would think it is not "hot" until you press the ON button on the fridge - not sure.)

F4: Bath Fan (The water pump is also on this one.) Neither of these should be "hot".

F5: Radio/TV (The chassis on both of these stay "hot" all the time so that is part of the loss but should be very little.)


Any other suggestions?

You are running off battery only when testing the fuse blown led. Have you checked if there is 12vdc on the fuse you are pulling? Could it be the converter has to be on to supply 12vdc to those fuses? Just a thought.
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Old 04-21-2021, 07:26 AM   #16
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Dave, valid thought. Yes I have verified that the converter does NOT need to be ON in order for all the 12VDC stuff to work.
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Old 04-21-2021, 07:44 AM   #17
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Dave, valid thought. Yes I have verified that the converter does NOT need to be ON in order for all the 12VDC stuff to work.
This might help:
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