Second Battery for new 2017 Flagstaff 27BHWS

[J007]

Hello... I tried looking around for this answer and couldn't seem to find it. This forum has been very helpful and thanks in advance for the help. I don't know that much about batteries so any help here will greatly appreciated.

We just purchased a new 2017 Flagstaff 27BHWS and take delivery in a few months. The unit is pre wired for solar and comes with one 12v battery. Since we had problems with holding a charge on our last trailer, we wanted to add a second battery to the new trailer. I hear the 6v batteries need to be fully discharged before charring them back up and where we normally just tow from place to place, don't feel they will ever fully discharge and just destroy the batteries. From what I have read on here, a lot of people chose the 6v deep cycle batteries, when they dry camp a lot. My question is, if we are normally camp where we are hooked up to electricity and only dry camp once or twice a year, would we be better off just adding a send 12v battery, rather than two 6v batteries?

[KMP44]

Assuming you are talking lead-acid batteries you will damage them if you drain them completely. Generally I think the main advantage for the 6V's tends to be they have thicker lead plates and are more durable.


With a new camper, just adding a 2nd matching 12v is a quick, easy way to double your capacity. That's what we did. You only have to buy one battery that way. Otherwise, unless the dealer gives you a credit on the original 12V, you have to buy 2 new batteries.

[J007]

This was what I was thinking as well, since the dealer is already throwing in one battery (12V), all I would need to do is add another one.

[cpd1343]

It is best to have two identical batteries. Same make, group size, capacity, type, etc.

[Belleville Bob]

I would also like to hear about others' opinions on installing a second battery to hold a solar charge. Specifically, can anyone post pictures of the wiring harness they have used? Thanks in advance!

[camaraderie]

Originally Posted by J007

My question is, if we are normally camp where we are hooked up to electricity and only dry camp once or twice a year, would we be better off just adding a send 12v battery, rather than two 6v batteries?

Yes...and insist they both be TRUE deep cycle 12V batteries rather than dual purpose for the best performance and cycle life.
I consider 2 12V batteries (Group 27 or 31preferably) that are TRUE deep cycle to be the better choice over 6V since even if one battery fails, you can always use the other and don't have to break camp. Others disagree. I DO prefer 4 6V over 4 12V for cycle life.
The charging requirements for a pair of 6V are the same as for a pair of 12V.
Don't let them get below 12.1V (static) before you recharge... and charge to 100% every chance you can while keeping water levels up. DO NOT rely on the idiot lights in the camper for battery condition. They are useless! Get a multimeter or a hydrometer or better yet...a battery monitor if you are gonna dry camp and recharge with a genny.
Good luck with the new unit!

[dmchapman]

It's raining today so I'm not going out to take pictures. Our dealer added the second battery at no charge. It is simply wired parallel to the original and mounted on the tongue. I added a portable 100 Watt Renogy panel and controller to keep the batteries topped up when boondocking. The controller is mounted in one of my front storage bays and I wired it directly to the positive post on one of the batteries. I chose not to use the Zamp wiring as it is rather light gauge wire. I used the heavy wire that came in the Renogy kit for least loss.. We have used this setup on several 2-4 day outings with some direct sun during the day and with moderate use of lights and accessories during the night we have never run the batteries down to a critical point.

[clintbonnie73]

[QUOTE=J007;1415106]Hello...

We just purchased a new 2017 Flagstaff 27BHWS and take delivery in a few months. The unit is pre wired for solar and comes with one 12v battery.
__________________________________________________ ____________


My Rockwood also came pre wired for solar.. but, I was real disappointed with this claim.. All it is a couple of "small" wires wired to the battery... You still need to buy a battery controller and the panel of coarse.. I started from scratch and wired in a controller and wire to a solar panel.. using the proper size wire, usually #10..
I would use 2 6v golf batteries for the best result.. If you have not got your trailer yet, have the dealer install them..

[markb422]

I wanted to replace the 12 volt battery that came with the mh with two 6 volt agm batteries but the dealer said they would not give a credit for the included battery. So, I had them install a second 12 volt while the original was new. When it comes time to replace the batteries I will install two new 6 volt agm's.
There is a good article on battieries in the Feb. 2017, issue of MotorHome magazine.

[J007]

Cam. Thanks for this information. I was told by the dealer, that I needed to fully discharge the deep cell batteries before recharging them. Since I don't dry camp that often, I was under the impression that deep cell batteries wouldn't be the right choice for me. Am I thinking all wrong about this?

[johnbryanpeters]

Originally Posted by J007

Cam. Thanks for this information. I was told by the dealer, that I needed to fully discharge the deep cell batteries before recharging them. Since I don't dry camp that often, I was under the impression that deep cell batteries wouldn't be the right choice for me. Am I thinking all wrong about this?

Your dealer is misinforming you. If you want to start educating yourself on batteries, I suggest Basic to Advanced Battery Information from Battery University.

[camaraderie]

Originally Posted by J007

Cam. Thanks for this information. I was told by the dealer, that I needed to fully discharge the deep cell batteries before recharging them. Since I don't dry camp that often, I was under the impression that deep cell batteries wouldn't be the right choice for me. Am I thinking all wrong about this?

Your welcome. Your dealer is entirely wrong. Wet cell 6 volt batteries are exactly like wet cell 12V batteries in terms of internal construction. In fact...you are simply creating one big (212 amp hour) 12V battery when you hook them together.
They...just like 12V should be operated between 50% of charge (12.1V) and 100% (12.7V) of charge for OPTIMUM service life. It won't hurt much to go to 40% occacsionally...but your dealers advice will kill any wet cell OR AGM battery in short order.
Because these are used as golf cart batteries ...they have to have good deep cycle properties which in practice means thick lead compound plates which wear out after many hundreds more discharges than starting batteries or dual purpose batteries in the 12V world. There ARE equally excellent deep cycle 12V batteries and a pair of group 27 or group 31 12V DEEP CYCLES are the functional equivilent of of a pair of golf cart batts. And deep cycles are the best choice for any RV.
Trojan and Deka/EastPenn would be my top choices for conventional deep cycle wet cells in either 6V or 12V but a lot of folks like the price on the 6V's at sams club. Though not built as well..they are sure a bargain and can be serviced/warranted about anywhere.
I do NOT recommend the link provided by the previous post and have detailed numerous errors within that link in the past. There is lots of GREAT info there but if you don't know how to tell the difference between what is correct and what isn't or what is not up to date it can be misleading.
There's a whole lot more to this battery stuff but since your boondocking will be minimal, I don't think it matters at all.
3 years in to my coach...I'm still using the dealers dual purpose cubes since I have yet to spend a night unplugged!
On the other hand...I lived 6 years solely with a 1200 amp hour bank of deep cycles, solar panels and wind...supplemented by a genny so I've been at both ends of the spectrum. No sense spending more than you have to...but the cheapest is often not the least expensive over time!

Most importantly ...keep the water up with distilled only...test each cell with a turkey baster hydrometer after charging at least once every 60 days... and keep your battery voltage over 12.1V when boondocking.

[clintbonnie73]

Originally Posted by J007

Cam. Thanks for this information. I was told by the dealer, that I needed to fully discharge the deep cell batteries before recharging them. Since I don't dry camp that often, I was under the impression that deep cell batteries wouldn't be the right choice for me. Am I thinking all wrong about this?

I think where the confusion is about discharging them is:
they can be discharge down to 20% (further than most batteries) before recharging them... I copied this off the internet about deep cycle batteries. I quote:
Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need. Although these can be cycled down to 20% charge, the best lifespan vs cost method is to keep the average cycle at about 50% discharge. Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The golf car battery is quite popular for small systems and RV's. The problem is that "golf car" refers to a size of battery case (commonly called GC-2, or T-105), not the type or construction - so the quality and construction of a golf car battery can vary considerably - ranging from the cheap off brand with thin plates up to true deep cycle brands, such as Crown, Deka, Trojan, etc. In general, you get what you pay for.

[camaraderie]

Originally Posted by clintbonnie73

I think where the confusion is about discharging them is:
they can be discharge down to 20% (further than most batteries) before recharging them... I copied this off the internet about deep cycle batteries. I quote:
Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need. Although these can be cycled down to 20% charge, the best lifespan vs cost method is to keep the average cycle at about 50% discharge. Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The golf car battery is quite popular for small systems and RV's. The problem is that "golf car" refers to a size of battery case (commonly called GC-2, or T-105), not the type or construction - so the quality and construction of a golf car battery can vary considerably - ranging from the cheap off brand with thin plates up to true deep cycle brands, such as Crown, Deka, Trojan, etc. In general, you get what you pay for.

That the plates are real lead is completely untrue.
It is further untrue that deep cycles can be discharged to 20% they can't without significant loss of cycle life.
Here's the TROJAN cycle life vs. depth of discharge chart for their T105 premium pruct. You will get 55% less battery life at 80% vs. 50% discharge.
As to LEAD...here's Trojans statement on what they use:
What is Alpha Plus?

• Alpha Plus crystals are part of Trojan's proprietary, high-density paste formulation.
• Alpha exists as long needle-shaped crystals of lead dioxide (Pb02) which act together to form an interlocking 3-D structure.

CROWN...uses "Dense TBLS (tetra-basic lead sulfate) crystal content in the positive plate ensures more resistance to breakdown for longer life and consistent performance."



and DEKA... "In the Deka flatplate, the density of the activematerial is controlled carefully by computer-integrated paste mix -ing machines to predetermined values.The paste density and weight will also be very uniform when applied automatically by East Penn’s computer- integrated pasting machines."



The only mfr. using pure lead is Odyssey which is using thin plate pure lead in an AGM design for dual use.

The arguably best deep cycle battery on the market today is the Firefly which uses a foamed construction.



Bottom line...your internet source doesn't know squat about actual battery construction.

[Tom48]

Originally Posted by Belleville Bob

I would also like to hear about others' opinions on installing a second battery to hold a solar charge. Specifically, can anyone post pictures of the wiring harness they have used? Thanks in advance!

Solar is smart for every trailer or MH. THE QUESTION IS ONLY HOW MUCH, JUST LIKE HOW MUCH BATTERY YOU NEED. For us we are off grid most of our camping so we had three "standard" Great 24s in our old TH where the height of Six volts would not fit. We had about 210 amps of battery and 200 watts of solar. New TH fits sixes so we started out with a pair of those. Again 225 amps of battery and 200 watts of solar. Planning to go up to 300 or 400 soon. Wiring harness is not an issue. Solar goes two wires to the controller and two bigger wires to the batteries. I fuse both the battery and panel side of the controller/charger. Not yet sure how the new unit is fused because it is factory solar. Oh. Even if you never plan dry camping long enough TO NEED solar, if you store outdoors 60 to 100 Watts assures the batteries are always charged. Paracitic loads no longer a headache. Batteries will last a lot longer.

[dmchapman]

Like Tom, I have fuses between panel and controller and controller to battery. Being unsure if there is any parasitic draw by the controller when the solar panel is not connected I also have a disconnect switch between the controller and batteries.

[J007]

Thanks everyone for all this great information. I think I may call the dealer up and have him add another 12v battery and make sure it's a deep cycle. It has also been helpful to know I should be asking him why kind of AH these batteries will have as well. Then after picking up, I will probably invest in a portable solar kit to help with keeping the batteries charged up when not in use.

One last question, what are people doing to keep an eye on there battery levels? Is there a good piece of hardware, that i can install that I don't have to keep pulling out the Multi-meter?

[FFred]

Your dealer has ZERO knowledge of batts.

I doubt he would know the difference between a true deep cycle batt and a start or "multiple use" batt.

The depth of discharge , as noted, will affect the service life.

Using a hydrometer is the preferred most accurate way to know the batterys charge condition.

A huge PIA for most folks, so a SOC meter is installed.

About $150 or so.

This registers State Of Charge , and is used as a "gas gauge"to inform you how the batt bank is doing.

They work very well to keep you out of trouble from dead batts.

As you can see from the chart the depth of discharge will decide batt life.

Solar is great for keeping a coach in storage batts up.

As most batts will loose 1% per day internally, just sitting.

Solaralso works fine camping , but BIG panels and parking out in the open is a requirement.

For many folks using less electric , change lights to LED and music with out sub woofer booster amps is a start.

[camaraderie]

Originally Posted by J007

Thanks everyone for all this great information. I think I may call the dealer up and have him add another 12v battery and make sure it's a deep cycle. It has also been helpful to know I should be asking him why kind of AH these batteries will have as well. Then after picking up, I will probably invest in a portable solar kit to help with keeping the batteries charged up when not in use.

One last question, what are people doing to keep an eye on there battery levels? Is there a good piece of hardware, that i can install that I don't have to keep pulling out the Multi-meter?

1. Multimeters are NOT a good way to keep track of a battery charge level in use. They should only be used to check a battery that is disconnected and after a 24 hour wait.
2. A battery monitor like the Victron or Trimetric can give you state of charge (not in use voltage) instantaneously and sells for about $150 but does a LOT of other things. If you don't boondock much you don't need one because your state of charge and other information is not needed when plugged in.
3. The cheapest and best way to check state of charge is the hydrometer you can get for 10 bucks at any auto store. This also shows you imbalances between cells and damaged cells.
4. Make sure your dealer gives you TWO batteries of the same kind...not just one true deep cycle. Mixing and matching types and sizes and age of batteries is NOT good.

[camaraderie]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

1. Multimeters are NOT a good way to keep track of a battery charge level in use. They should only be used to check a battery that is disconnected and after a 24 hour wait.
2. A battery monitor like the Victron or Trimetric can give you state of charge (not in use voltage) instantaneously and sells for about $150 but does a LOT of other things. If you don't boondock much you don't need one because your state of charge and other information is not needed when plugged in.
3. The cheapest and best way to check state of charge is the hydrometer you can get for 10 bucks at any auto store. This also shows you imbalances between cells and damaged cells.
4. Make sure your dealer gives you TWO batteries of the same kind...not just one true deep cycle. Mixing and matching types and sizes and age of batteries is NOT good.

5. 20 hour amp hour ratings on common batteries are always close to:
Group 24...75
Group 27...95
Group 31...105
T105 Pair...210