'strange' electrical PROBLEM, crazy!

[formerFR]

uh, Hi

just wanted to give everyone an interesting read on something that happened just this morning... ELECTRICAL related : /

my son is at college, off campus, on his own private lot, with his 2014 Gulfstream camper. We set him up there this year, to settle in to studies at UAH for Aerospace Engineering. While we were there beside him in our motorhome for a while, he's there on his own now.
He has a 30amp shore cord to a 30amp outlet 'box', and to the power pole on the property, where it is attached to the 30amp breaker in the Main Panel(an outside 'combo' Meter/200amp Main Panel). His 30amp connection is the only draw from the panel.

This morning he texted me that he was hearing a pop and crackle sound from his bedside outlet. He even facetimed me so i could hear it. Hmmmm, not good, so I told him to look under the fridge and trip OFF the 30amp Main Breaker. He did. It kept making sounds and popping and cracking, and even just then, started to 'smoke'...
I QUICKLY told him that it was not 'normal' for any 120v electrical outlet to continue having an electrical issue when the Main Breaker to the camper has been tripped OFF, but never-the-less to RUN outside and pull his shore power cord!

He did. No more cracking, popping, or smoking, though now there was residual melting and black soot around the lower outlet. There was nothing plugged into the outlet at the time, and the only thing plugged in to it normally was a small desk fan, not even run or used during the overnight hours. This 'sounds' awakened him this morning, and he unplugged the fan thinking that it was the culprit, and then texted me when it kept 'making noises'.

SO.... what to do now, right? Now that we have 'no power' to the camper, and no 'way' for the outlet to still have ANY type of electrical power, I asked him to carefully, still, pull off the outlet COVER, and then pull OUT the outlet itself.
I imagined that this was one of the 'stab outlet' type where the factory doesn't have to cut back wire covers on each wire, but simply 'stabs' or pushing them down FIRMLY into a 'teeth' type contact point.
Yes, that's exactly what type of outlet it was, and the lower NEUTRAL white wire was plainly BLACK with soot and burn marks. Now, this was ALSO a daisy-chained outlet, meaning that there were INCOMING wires, from the power source, and OUTGOING wires to go to the next outlet, which was his computer, monitors, modem, and where he sits ALL DAY, while 'working' : ) (I think!)

So, we decided, remotely, to do some tests:
First, undo ALL of the 6 wires(2 black, 2 white, 2 bare ground) and keep them separated. Trip OFF all the breakers. Go out and plug IN the shore cord. Come back in and flip ON the 30amp Main Breaker. Good. Now flip ON the 15amp circuit breaker and 'see' if anything is still cracking/popping/smoking from those wires. No, nothing. Good.

Second, test: plug something into each outlet near the bed - the right side outlet still 'worked'. The wall 'TV outlet' worked. The computer/desk area did NOT work. Now we know that the 'daisy-chained' outlet is 'upstream' of the computer outlet, and we need to try to handle getting power back to this 'primary' outlet.

Third, flip OFF all the breakers again. Go out and UNPLUG the shore power again. Come back in and twist together each set of wires(ground first, then Neutral, then black) making good contact for each set, but keeping them 'separate' from each other, for the time being. Also, remove the CAT to the restroom while you do this : )

Fourth, go back out and plug IN the shore power. Come back in and see if anything is amiss with the 'new' wiring. Nothing. Good. No voltmeter available, by the way. Flip ON the main breaker. Still nothing, Good. Flip ON the 15amp circuit breaker. Nothing, very good, although just then his MONITORS powered up and starting working again, nice! Now we know we have completed the 'circuit' and there is power restored everywhere, except the aforementioned 'bad outlet', which was removed.

Congrats, but now: FIFTH...
Turn OFF the circuit breaker. Run to the hardware store for TAN wire nuts, and electrical tape(and get a few 'tools' while you're at it!).
Return, twist the TAN wire nuts well onto the ends of each 'pair' of wires. Tug to make sure they are well attached. Add electrical tape around each 'pair', from 1" below the wire nut, to and over the wire nut. Add tape now around the three pairs, making a 'single' bundle. Carefully push this bundle in the wall cavity where they came from. Go back and turn ON the circuit breaker. Make sure the computer area is working. 'IF' you have room, put the outlet back in the same hole it came from, add the cover plate, and you are now 'good to go', with only a 'dead' outlet to speak of. Oh well. It works, none-the-less.


Here's my take on this high-pressure situation, especially when you 19 year old, with no electrical experience, and 200 miles away from 'home', has a sudden 'fire hazard' issue next to where they are sleeping:

I believe there are two things at work here: A not-so-great outlet electrical 'connection' with it's wires, and a possible 'ground leak' thru the Shore Power/Outside Main Panel at the power pole. Without knowing for sure, I believe that even though this outlet had some suspect wiring from the factory, the 'ground leakage', which would not have required the camper's main breaker to be engaged, created a situation where it's 'leakage'(a small amperage) was somehow interfering with the Neutral wire, or otherwise they were so close together, or maybe even touching with the outlet, and the 'power' was then able to 'cross over' within the outlet, making it 'live', or seemingly so, even with the camper's Main Breaker(and circuit breaker, both) turned OFF!
Neutrals have a way of creating bad days, when they are either loose and not always making a good connection, or when any 'arcing' is created across it's wire when things are as tight as they should be.

Maybe I'm close, maybe not, but either way, the situation is somewhat resolved, and he's able to go back to his normal functions, while now being cognizant of this occurring in another outlet if the 'ground leakage' condition continues. He had a lot of rain recently, which I'm sure may only add to the equation. Until I can get over and diagnose the outside power pole Main Panel and it's connections, especially the 'ground' in the ground, I won't really know.


Happy Days are here again! : ) (I'd love to upload a photo, or video, of some of this, but we were so in the weeds for a while we didn't think of that right at the moment!)

[Bama Rambler]

One other possible scenario as to why you would still have power even with the main breaker off. A switched hot and neutral. It could be either at the pedestal or at the RV. That would mean that the neutral was still hot with the breaker off.

I would at least have him get a cheap receptacle tester and plug it in to see if that's the case.

[BehindBars]

Agree with above. Make sure hot and neutral are not reversed at the RV outlet, or anywhere else for that matter.

[Joe_GA]

Since the monitor powered up after your son connected the wires together, that tells me there was current flowing in the circuit when the pop and crackle sounds occurred. This is a common problem with daisy changed receptacles, especially in kitchens where high current appliances are used. If you have a loose or high resistance connection between the power connection and the load, you will get the popping and crackling. BTW, the proper way to connect the wires is to twist them together first. That gives you a good mechanical and electrical connection. Then, twist the proper size wire nut on. No electrical tape needed.

[formerFR]

funny, as the 'directions' for the wire nuts says to NOT twist the wires, but to simply add the cap and 'twist' until tight... Funny, as I've ALWAYS twisted my pairs before adding the cap : )

and, yes, there may be no 'need' for the electrical tape, but it makes some feel better : )

[Joe_GA]

Originally Posted by formerFR

funny, as the 'directions' for the wire nuts says to NOT twist the wires, but to simply add the cap and 'twist' until tight... Funny, as I've ALWAYS twisted my pairs before adding the cap : )

and, yes, there may be no 'need' for the electrical tape, but it makes some feel better : )

When you get the right quantity and size of wires in a wire nut, it will usually bite good and will do the trick. I've seen too many that were not tight and caused a high resistance connection. Most Pro's twist the wires first.

[Reverse_snowbird]

A bit off subject, but related.

Do you have a EMS/Surge protector that connects to the pole and helps protect the rig? It's not going to protect the rig from a short in the wall, but it will help protect from problems at the post.

Glad he was there and he got it disconnected and fixed. It's scary to think what could have happened.

[formerFR]

no, we've never used any 'protection' device, even in our motorhome with 107,000 miles over 5 1/2 years all over the country, Alaska, and Canada...

I understand that some may, but I've never seen the 'need' for them. This situation is not one of surge, or similar, but more of maybe 'stray' voltage, ground 'leakage', etc.

We were plugged into the same power pole/main panel with our 50amp 240v rig with no issues for months...

thanks for the thought, though... it was a wild morning, but he made it through.

BTW, I just texted him and asked him 'how was his 'lectrical doing', and he responded:
"I'm not on fire"



: ) Keep the Fire Extinguisher handy

[Flybob]

Have him buy a polarity test plug. inexpensive and will allow him to test for a mis-wired box/panel.


Inexpensive: https://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instru...s%2C193&sr=8-5


Little Better: https://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instru...s%2C193&sr=8-5

[Mike134]

It's likely he never turned off the actual main in all the confusion and this was probably his very first experience trying to. That's why things keep frying till he pulled the plug. I've had building engineers make the same mistake and they should know what they are doing.

Sounds like you found the loose connection and fixed it.

[Swampy]

Originally Posted by Flybob

Have him buy a polarity test plug. inexpensive and will allow him to test for a mis-wired box/panel.


Inexpensive: https://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instru...s%2C193&sr=8-5


Little Better: https://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instru...s%2C193&sr=8-5

I would also advise buying a Non-Contact Voltage Tester just to be sure the power is truly off and the metal is not energized. If the chasis is energized and he is standing on wet earth, he could easily receive a shock powerful enough to be fatal. You get a bonus with my 2 cents ... When you have a broken or non connected neutral, the return current will generally end up taking the ground wire as the conductor back to the source. This means some voltage drop along the ground wire and leads to a better chance of the "hot skin" condition. Please be extra careful with the unknowns here and be safe, kill it out to work on it.

[formerFR]

I've had the 'hot skin' condition before, on my own motorhome, and as I remember, it was either a loose ground or a switched neutral/hot within one of the wiring runs. That was on my 50amp 240v coach.
I believe his is similar, and we'll certainly do our due diligence to find the culprit soon. An outlet tester to start, then a look into whether the 30amp 'box' outside is wired correctly(neutral/hot) back to the Main Panel. I'm not sure if I've ever considered that the female 30amp outlet has to be wired a certain way, with the hot on the left, or the neutral on the right, etc.

[Mike134]

Originally Posted by formerFR

I'm not sure if I've ever considered that the female 30amp outlet has to be wired a certain way, with the hot on the left, or the neutral on the right, etc.

That's scary. I'd suggest hiring an Electrician.

[5picker]

Originally Posted by formerFR

I've had the 'hot skin' condition before, on my own motorhome, and as I remember, it was either a loose ground or a switched neutral/hot within one of the wiring runs. That was on my 50amp 240v coach.
I believe his is similar, and we'll certainly do our due diligence to find the culprit soon. An outlet tester to start, then a look into whether the 30amp 'box' outside is wired correctly(neutral/hot) back to the Main Panel. I'm not sure if I've ever considered that the female 30amp outlet has to be wired a certain way, with the hot on the left, or the neutral on the right, etc.

It does!

[Mike134]

Originally Posted by 5picker

it does!

x 2-3-4-5

[llr]

I highly doubt if it is leakage. It sounds like either the wrong breaker was flipped or something is miswired.

And the hot neutral and ground need to go to specific terminals in any outlet, panel etc.

[lorenc]

Ive had a couple Electricians tell me not to tape wire nuts because it makes their job much harder to diagnose problems if they have to take all the tape off first before checking a connection. Just twist the wires together nice and tight and put on the wire nut.