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Old 01-22-2016, 01:37 PM   #21
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Hardwired Progressive EMS. A portable one on the post won't protect against power cord faults.
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Old 01-22-2016, 01:44 PM   #22
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Westom,

Your whole post seems like junk science reasoning.

A true major surge event will fry a Progressive unit, yes by design, and they will fix it for free. They will fix it for free if it doesn't work for any reason. Your theory is way off base.


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Old 01-22-2016, 03:34 PM   #23
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Westom,

Your whole post seems like junk science reasoning.

A true major surge event will fry a Progressive unit, yes by design, and they will fix it for free. They will fix it for free if it doesn't work for any reason. Your theory is way off base.


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I have sent my Progressive unit back twice, the last time to get the unit recalibrated, it was reading 128 volts, it's supposed to read no more than 125 volts.


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Old 01-22-2016, 03:42 PM   #24
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Hardwired Progressive EMS. A portable one on the post won't protect against power cord faults.
I don't understand, what will cause a power cord fault? wouldn't you then be taken care of by your breaker in your unit either 50 or 30 amp? Not trying to be smart ***** but I don't understand your post. If you didn't use a portable you would surly trip the breaker in the unit. Just asking a question that's all...Example Please... I'm always willing to learn that is for sure.
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Old 01-22-2016, 03:56 PM   #25
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Westom,

Your whole post seems like junk science reasoning.

A true major surge event will fry a Progressive unit, yes by design, and they will fix it for free. They will fix it for free if it doesn't work for any reason. Your theory is way off base.


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While a little 'wordy' I agree with Weston. A surge protector that fails should have been big enough to 'NOT' fail. When a cheap surge protector fails and only the protective parts inside fail and power continues to flow to the unit it is protecting, that is worthless. You call it 'by design' and that makes no sense because if it was by design then that surge protector should take the unit it was protecting (trailer) off line so nothing else could get to it, that would be a good design but most cheap surge protectors do not disable the power. If it only fails by having it's protective parts blow up then it is leaving power flowing to the unit it is protecting, Then the next power surge can get directly to the unit.
I say Weston has it pretty much right in the several points he makes.
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Old 01-22-2016, 07:28 PM   #26
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Power doesn't continue flowing to the trailer. You need to remove it and plug in directly to get power to the trailer again.


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Old 01-22-2016, 08:32 PM   #27
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A true major surge event will fry a Progressive unit, ,,,
Good. Where are numbers define this fault? Do you feel it must be true - and then declare it as fact? Or use logic and numbers to first define what a 'surge event' is? No useful reply is possible for an emotion belief that is not even defined - and has no numbers.

Evereddie is correct except for one minor point. As protectors parts are failing, even that first surge is incoming to the 'unit it is protecting'.

Surge is a current. If that current is incoming to a protector, then that same current is outgoing into a 'protected unit' - simultaneously. Long after that current has flowed through everything, then something in that path fails - ie a near zero (sacrificial) protector part.

Any following surge is also connected to that 'protected unit' - as Evereddie describes. A thermal fuse only disconnected near zero protectors parts to avert a fire. That first and all following surges remain connected to a 'protected unit'.

A thermal fuse 'sacrificed' itself to save a human from fire - because that human purchased a near zero protector.

Meanwhile you have also confused two completely different devices called "surge protector". A protector that disconnects is for over voltages, polarity reversals, etc. Disconnecting takes milliseconds or seconds.

Surges are done in microseconds - cannot be stopped by disconnecting.

You confuse two completely different devices (both called surge protectors) that address two completely different electrical anomalies. A first post (that was read with insufficient attention and comprehension) explained that.
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Old 01-22-2016, 11:49 PM   #28
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Evereddie and westom is correct, but instead of saying "cheap" surge protectors, I would say "affordable" surge protectors.

The affordable surge protectors we buy are made with metal oxide varisitors (MOV). The MOV does not fail buy design, but it degraded over time. Each surge, which is about 3 nanoseconds of up to 3 times the line voltage (300 to 500 volts) or spike, which is about 1 to 2 nanoseconds is diverted to ground. Each occurance slightly degraded the components and it is non-reversible. Over time the MOV will provide no protection. Fortunately Progressive Industries will replace the surge protection for free which is why I have one installed.

I think westom is saying there are much better protection available that does not degrade over time, but it is doubtful that most would be willing to spend that amount of money.

Some manufacturers attempt to deceive us naive consumers by placing many for MOVs in parallel to advertise a higher joules rating and charge a higher price. Keep in mind that the protection is only as strong as the weakest component. It is very conceivable to believe that one MOV could continue to take all the surge hits and become just as useless as a lower joule rated protector. This is why I agree they could easily be called scam protectors.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:16 AM   #29
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So we disagree. I will continue to use my six year Progressive EMS-30 anyway. I am perfectly happy with it regardless of what you say. You say they are all junk, but offer no other alternatives.


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Old 01-23-2016, 10:59 AM   #30
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So we disagree. I will continue to use my six year Progressive EMS-30 anyway. I am perfectly happy with it regardless of what you say. You say they are all junk, but offer no other alternatives.


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I think there is some confusion here in regards to the type of power protection unit and the points we are all trying to make here. I have the Progressive hardwired unit and it is the BEST thing going for a camper. I totally agree with you on that. I am not calling that type of unit cheap or junk. (maybe Westom is) Could it be better, yes, but at what cost? It is some of the stand alone surge protectors and the surge protectors built into outlet strips that I am calling junk. It is those type of surge protectors that have parts that fail immediately and the excuse is that those parts are sacrificial that Wescom and I take issue with. The parts in the Progressive that fail and take the unit off line is is a better way of designing a protection device.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my previous posting.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:33 AM   #31
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I think westom is saying there are much better protection available that does not degrade over time, but it is doubtful that most would be willing to spend that amount of money.
Best protector uses MOVs. It degrades - after many decades. And then still remains functional. Cheap protectors (that are sold at expensive prices) degrade quickly when undersized. Degradation is so little with each surge (when an MOV protector is properly sized) that degradation is irrelevant.

Transistors also degrade with each switch. That degradation is also so little that nobody cares.

Many inferior protectors come from manufacturer with names such as APC, Belkin, Tripplite, Panamax, and Monster. These do not claim to do what is required / discussed here.

Progressive sells many models. Protection from surges discussed above is only in some models. And requires that protector to be as close to the pole as possible. Increased separation between protector and RV electronics increases protection. That is protection from one anomaly: destructive transients.

More common anomalies include voltage variations, floating neutral, open safety ground, and reversed polarity. Progressive (and competitive products) should also include that protection.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:55 AM   #32
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Understand what we disagree on. Surge protectors are not sacraficial by design. They are sacrificial by the characterists of the components used. They are designed to offer the best protection consumers are willing to pay.

I too use a progressive hardwired because I think it is the BEST available for the price. But when it fails (and at some point it probably will) I know it will be replaced for no additional cost. I hesitate to say for free, because we actually pay for the replacement parts when the unit is first purchased. I also know why it failed and will not remove the unit and plug in directly to power.
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:03 PM   #33
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Obviously there are always very knowledgeable people about subjects that are brought up. So if there is a better one out there please don't hesitate to reveal your knowlege.
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:12 PM   #34
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I don't understand, what will cause a power cord fault? wouldn't you then be taken care of by your breaker in your unit either 50 or 30 amp? Not trying to be smart ***** but I don't understand your post. If you didn't use a portable you would surly trip the breaker in the unit. Just asking a question that's all...Example Please... I'm always willing to learn that is for sure.
I don't remember the exact scenario, but there was a thread on here within the past year or so where the cable between the rv and the pedestal had a failure. A break in the neutral I believe. A device at the pedestal wouldn't have seen the fault in the cable, and that sort of failure doesn't trip breakers.

Found the link.
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:16 PM   #35
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Totally and undeniably very happy with my progressive ems, I'd sure like to see a better alternative with a lifetime warranty .


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Old 01-24-2016, 09:26 AM   #36
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I don't remember the exact scenario, but there was a thread on here within the past year or so where the cable between the rv and the pedestal had a failure. A break in the neutral I believe. A device at the pedestal wouldn't have seen the fault in the cable, and that sort of failure doesn't trip breakers.

Found the link.
Okay thanks for that link 50 amp service yes, 30 amp not so much. I can understand 50 amp would cause a problem. Thanks again. Lets hope it won't happen to anyone.... I also agree with Turbs you better have something and still have never seen anything better then progressive. But Thank-you MIFARMER for getting back to me. Safe Travels to you.
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Old 01-24-2016, 11:16 AM   #37
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Okay thanks for that link 50 amp service yes, 30 amp not so much. I can understand 50 amp would cause a problem. Thanks again. Lets hope it won't happen to anyone.... I also agree with Turbs you better have something and still have never seen anything better then progressive. But Thank-you MIFARMER for getting back to me. Safe Travels to you.
An open neutral will affect any level of service. Consider that at some point upstream the ground and neutral are bonded together. So if the neutral has a break, and there is any sort of connection between neutral and ground in any appliance in the rv (some do), electricity will take the ground circuit instead. Basically, when he switched on the A/C the juice entered on the hot leg and energized the neutral. Since there was no path to leave the rv on the neutral it took the next way it could, which was across the neutral and ground bonds inside the various appliances. All the amperage from the A/C unit was flowing through the neutral circuits in the camper, across the neutral-to-ground paths inside the appliances, and then out the ground circuit. Hence, the smoking appliances.

Now consider that the camper ground (frame) is now energized as long as that A/C unit is switched on. So had anyone touched the step in that condition...

My thought is that the cable gets flexed and twisted every time it is deployed, and wire can only flex so many times before it breaks. So that's why I have a hard wired Progressive EMS!
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Old 01-24-2016, 11:52 AM   #38
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An open neutral will affect any level of service. Consider that at some point upstream the ground and neutral are bonded together. So if the neutral has a break, and there is any sort of connection between neutral and ground in any appliance in the rv (some do), electricity will take the ground circuit instead. Basically, when he switched on the A/C the juice entered on the hot leg and energized the neutral. Since there was no path to leave the rv on the neutral it took the next way it could, which was across the neutral and ground bonds inside the various appliances. All the amperage from the A/C unit was flowing through the neutral circuits in the camper, across the neutral-to-ground paths inside the appliances, and then out the ground circuit. Hence, the smoking appliances.

Now consider that the camper ground (frame) is now energized as long as that A/C unit is switched on. So had anyone touched the step in that condition...

My thought is that the cable gets flexed and twisted every time it is deployed, and wire can only flex so many times before it breaks. So that's why I have a hard wired Progressive EMS!
X2.
Very good point, right on!
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Old 01-24-2016, 01:32 PM   #39
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An open neutral will affect any level of service. Consider that at some point upstream the ground and neutral are bonded together. So if the neutral has a break, and there is any sort of connection between neutral and ground in any appliance in the rv (some do), electricity will take the ground circuit instead. Basically, when he switched on the A/C the juice entered on the hot leg and energized the neutral. Since there was no path to leave the rv on the neutral it took the next way it could, which was across the neutral and ground bonds inside the various appliances. All the amperage from the A/C unit was flowing through the neutral circuits in the camper, across the neutral-to-ground paths inside the appliances, and then out the ground circuit. Hence, the smoking appliances.

Now consider that the camper ground (frame) is now energized as long as that A/C unit is switched on. So had anyone touched the step in that condition...

My thought is that the cable gets flexed and twisted every time it is deployed, and wire can only flex so many times before it breaks. So that's why I have a hard wired Progressive EMS!
Thanks for all these good points. Who knows how many times I have rolled that cord up in 4 years. Once again thanks.
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Old 01-24-2016, 03:22 PM   #40
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An open neutral will affect any level of service.
An open neutral will appear as a high or a low voltage on appliances. A Progressive protector will detect that voltage. Then cut off power to avert damage. Other devices called protectors will do nothing. Again. The word 'protector' says nothing useful. A best protector claims to avert that particular anomaly.

A neutral wire does not suddenly break. Incandescent bulbs increasing or decreasing intensity warn of that impending defect long before it fails.

Progressive is for anomalies more commonly found in campgrounds. To also protect from an anomaly called a surge, that Progressive must be a version that connects as close as possible to the pole. In every case, best solution is determined by reading specifications. Subjective recommendation can result in ineffective or wrong type of protection.
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