Upgrading to Lithium batteries

[Dpelaez]

There are many reasons lithium is a better choice besides weight.

Size
Charge time
Power
Maintenance free
No ventilation needed
Built in BMS

For me with limited space , I added much more power capacity than any other option.

[Dpelaez]

Lithium has no problem starting my Dynamax ,it will start and run the a/c but not for long so I dont use the a/c any I chase good weather. Microwave and all other electronics are not a problem for lithium.

[babock]

Originally Posted by Dpelaez

There are many reasons lithium is a better choice besides weight.

Size
Charge time
Power
Maintenance free
No ventilation needed
Built in BMS

For me with limited space , I added much more power capacity than any other option.

Charge time is huge! Lithium take max current until they are completely(100%) charged so they are basically in bulk modes at all time. You can charge a lithium in less than half the time of a lead acid. Big advantage when you are using solar or have a limited time that you can use a generator.

No disadvantage of leaving them in storage partially charged. In fact that is the preferred way to store them. No need to trickle charge them during storage.

They don't have the Peukerts loss of a lead acid so way more efficient charging as well.

Lower internal resistance so you don't get the voltage drop of large inverter loads that can cause a voltage drop and cause the inverter to drop out.

I can now mount my batteries inside my trailer so I don't have two batteries sitting on my tongue ready to get stolen! Not even going to talk about the weight savings of the batteries on the tongue along with the metal housing box.

I can have the solar controller and the converter literally with in a foot or two form the batteries for low voltage drop.

[mlmay12]

Originally Posted by babock

Charge time is huge! Lithium take max current until they are completely(100%) charged so they are basically in bulk modes at all time. You can charge a lithium in less than half the time of a lead acid. Big advantage when you are using solar or have a limited time that you can use a generator.

No disadvantage of leaving them in storage partially charged. In fact that is the preferred way to store them. No need to trickle charge them during storage.

They don't have the Peukerts loss of a lead acid so way more efficient charging as well.

Lower internal resistance so you don't get the voltage drop of large inverter loads that can cause a voltage drop and cause the inverter to drop out.

I can now mount my batteries inside my trailer so I don't have two batteries sitting on my tongue ready to get stolen! Not even going to talk about the weight savings of the batteries on the tongue along with the metal housing box.

I can have the solar controller and the converter literally with in a foot or two form the batteries for low voltage drop.

For me because I almost always boondock the charging time with the generator and solar is huge. Also the low cargo capacity on the Isata3 can take advantage of the 80 Lbs in savings. People can make up their own mind and for those who don't mind the expense, which is considerable then they can enjoy all the benefits of Lithium.

[Dpelaez]

Yes, I only exercise my generator since I have solar and lithium. So quick to charge. I have a 3000 inverter...no problem. Great upgrade!

[Comanchecreek]

Interested in this article. My feeling so far is the cost doesn't justify the end, but these posts bring out the best of the Geeks who really understand this stuff, so I'm listening. OK guys justify a grand for each battery, and the potential of having to change all of the charging equipment on the trailer. What is the true expected life expectancy of a Lithium Ion battery over a Lead acid wet cell. We're definitely on the futures doorstep.

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by Dpelaez

There are many reasons lithium is a better choice besides weight.

Size
Charge time
Power
Maintenance free
No ventilation needed
Built in BMS

For me with limited space , I added much more power capacity than any other option.

Right on. Unlike a deep cycle, a Li battery offers over 13 volts right on down to the bottom. A typical battery life system in a RV for deep cycle would show a Li battery at 100% even though it was almost depleted of power. A deep cycle, especially as it goes below 50%, power output is significantly less and depending on what it is powering, could deplete even more quickly than a Li battery. That is how those battery life gauges work... they go by the depleted voltage output of the wet batteries as they are used. Not an issue with Li batts.

A 100ah 12v Li battery weighs in at about 28 lb. A pair of them would not reach the weight of a single 6v deep cycle battery. The average person could carry two 100ah Li batteries for quite a ways without breaking a sweat.

And a Li battery can take all the power you can feed it to charge up. Only a couple of hours at 55 amp if the battery was fully depleted, which is what most RV batteries are charged at via converters or inverter/charger units, but the deep cycle wet batteries require multi phase charging over much longer periods of time to charge properly. in the outside chance that one depleted their deep cycle into the basement, it would take a minimum of 24 hrs to properly charge it back.

And while it may not seem like a big deal that Li batteries will last far longer than the typical deep cycle, one can always put them on another RV if they bought one. Treated properly and used in the right manner, one could even pass them on to the next generation in their family and they would still go a long time.

And Li batteries could be mounted inside the living space of a RV or TT and not be a hazard. No nasty emissions like wet batteries. No one would then be able to steal them like wet batteries mounted outside. And Li batteries would not corrode the battery compartment via the sulfuric acid fumes that are emitted from wet batteries.

And Li batts can be mounted the normal way, sideways, upside down, on end, or any way that you need them mounted to fit your needs.

They are very cost effective. It is just the initial sticker shock that causes many to run for the hills.

I suppose it can seem like "justifying a grand" in discussing this, but many other things in life work the same way. And this is one area where "you get what you pay for".

[Skyliner]

Lithium batteries are ready for prime time except for one factor: COST.

That marinehowto article is hilarious. Any battery system will fail to include lead acid batteries if the charging system is in sync with the battery system specs.

I'd get Lithium batteries in a heartbeat and do a DIY install if it wasn't for cost. Does anybody know why they cost so much?

[Mad Cow]

I would say it is a market thing regarding price. Relatively new to the market and not the volume. But some RV folks are already moving toward Li batts combined with inverters as part of their RV build. Pleasure Way is doing it with their Class B product offerings. 2 100ah Li batts with a 2000w inverter. Everything but air conditioner and 12v needs like USB ports is on the inverter. Coachmen has it as an option now with the Galleria Class B. They call it the Li3. 400ah of Li batts combined with 3000 watt inverter. Can even run the Air Conditioner for 8 hrs. Both of these guys offer 12v/120v 6CF compressor fridges as part of the package. Those fridges can operate at up to a 30 degree angle. Try that with a absorption fridge. These compressor fridges (from Dometic and NorCold) are far more efficient and use very little power. I comparison priced similar size absorption fridges with compressor fridges from the same manufacturers and the compressor fridges were actually cheaper! About the only need for the onboard propane is the furnace, water heater, stove, and onboard gen set.

Slowly but surely the industry is waking up and getting out of the 20th century. Albeit, kicking and screaming in some cases. As more go to Li technology the price should drop accordingly.

[Cypressloser]

I guess Lithium batteries are finally ready for the masses, except for cost.
Pay close attention to the cold temperature charging limitations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77mqMc30ceU

[Mad Cow]

That is true about cold temp charging. That is why the OEM's who are using Li batts mount them within the living compartment, as should anyone who does the project if they are going to be using their RV or TT in temps below 32F. It is good to see that Xantrex is using a warming unit in its batteries. One can always count on Xantrex to be a the front of the line with vehicle electrical needs.

[babock]

As far as cost goes, I am doing an entire solar install along with my lithium batteries. Since I am doing it all this year, I am taking the 30% tax credit on the whole system. Makes the price a little more reasonable if its $700/per battery instead of $1000.

[Dpelaez]

Where are you getting your batteries? 1,000 seems inexpensive as I paid much more 1 yr ago but are yours 100 ah or 200ah batteries.?

[Comanchecreek]

We use lithium batteries with great success in a lot of areas. Phones, tools, computers, cars. I just don't think it's been standardized enough for RV style use. Not ready for Prime Time, (no pun intended) until the average Joe can successfully convert his rig over to them at a cost he/she can afford. I can sit 5 days with my golf carts with little problem. I generally don't dry camp longer than that. Other than the gassing, which my trailer has a vent system, what would be the reason for the exceptional cost? Also sounds as if we've glossed over cold weather usage and storage of LI's. Do they need to be moved to a warm space when in storage in a cold climate? They're coming I grant you, and judging by the performance, and lifespan discussed here, (and elsewhere), I will be on the bandwagon.

[babock]

Originally Posted by Dpelaez

Where are you getting your batteries? 1,000 seems inexpensive as I paid much more 1 yr ago but are yours 100 ah or 200ah batteries.?

100AH...They were actually $925 including shipping.

[babock]

Originally Posted by Comanchecreek

We use lithium batteries with great success in a lot of areas. Phones, tools, computers, cars. I just don't think it's been standardized enough for RV style use. Not ready for Prime Time, (no pun intended) until the average Joe can successfully convert his rig over to them at a cost he/she can afford. I can sit 5 days with my golf carts with little problem. I generally don't dry camp longer than that. Other than the gassing, which my trailer has a vent system, what would be the reason for the exceptional cost? Also sounds as if we've glossed over cold weather usage and storage of LI's. Do they need to be moved to a warm space when in storage in a cold climate? They're coming I grant you, and judging by the performance, and lifespan discussed here, (and elsewhere), I will be on the bandwagon.

No need to move them in cold weather for storage. You just can't discharge them when it's below 20°F.

To me, they are well worth the money for all the features listed in earlier posts. If you don't have solar and/or don't worry about how fast your batteries charge or worry about weight or a whole number of nice things about them, they may not be for you.

When I first did a quickie review of them, I was on the fence about getting them. After seeing how much tongue weight my trailer was going to have with 2 GC part batteries on it, I started looking at them closer. Just the weight difference alone was enough for me but when I found out about the other features, I decided to go for it.

[NMWildcat]

Great thread! Lithium systems are definitely the way to go AFTER the price comes down.

We boondock 80% of the time for weeks with 2 12volt batteries and 2 Honda eu2000is. My marine batteries last 4.5 years on avg and cost $100 a piece and are widely available.

Lithium has a long way to go before they are viable cost wise.

[Dpelaez]

Check Battmobile.com they are in Yuma. They have a very compact 200ah battery they may fit your space and 100ah may be a bit short for you. I got mine 1 yr ago and love it!

[MOODMAN]

When you all talk about 100, 200, 400AH, etc., please tell me what that translates to in terms of normal boondocking usage.

For example, in moderate weather where I won't be using AC or heat, but will cook, use lights, absorption fridge, water pump, CPAP, and TV, how long could I expect to use a 100, 200 and 400AH battery?

[aeblank]

Originally Posted by MOODMAN

When you all talk about 100, 200, 400AH, etc., please tell me what that translates to in terms of normal boondocking usage.

For example, in moderate weather where I won't be using AC or heat, but will cook, use lights, absorption fridge, water pump, CPAP, and TV, how long could I expect to use a 100, 200 and 400AH battery?

I think that's the Crux of it. You need to figure that out for you and your rig.

I have no issues with sub 200ah (100 usable) for a weekend. We're pretty frugal though.

That said, eventually there are 2 6v us batteries in my future with 420ah (210 usable). As well as solar. Actually the solar is in the garage waiting to get installed......