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Old 06-21-2021, 10:45 PM   #1
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Upgrading to lithium coach battery, what is really needed

We are several months into a 2019 Sunseeker LE 3250DSLE.

Love it love it love it!!!

It seems to have one standard coach battery, which I'm sure was what came from the factory. Many times we wake up in the morning and the battery is still providing power but is on the low side (meter only has a dot or two and sometimes things are dimmer).

Since we will probably be doing some boondocking and want to minimize generator running...I'm considering getting a big

200Ah Lithium LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Rechargeable Battery

However, trying to figure out if the stock chargers will mess it up or will be ok has been confusing.

Some of the batteries claim to have built in battery management systems that protect against overcharge but then when you ask more questions some manufacturers still claim you need a different charger or charge manager (not sure if that is same thing)

Yes the batteries are pricey but some claim long warranties and if the battery can just be dropped in and used...then I'm probably ok on cost. But..if this will trigger lots of other required upgrades, I would want to know costs upfront.

We are "solar ready" but haven't tried those yet. Would that be a separate charge controller for that?


Am I correct that we charge the coach battery when the engine is running and/or when the generator is running and/or if plugged into solar.

So does all that run through one "charger" or "charge manager" or would we have to but up to three separate new things?

Excited to find this place and do some upgrading to our Sunseeker.

Best,

NH
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Old 06-21-2021, 10:47 PM   #2
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Here is a pic of the battery compartment.

What do those small boxes the battery cables are plugged into do?
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Old 06-22-2021, 07:21 AM   #3
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You'll need to contact the manufacturer of your converter (the box with the fuses and circuit breakers in it, not shown in your photos) since it controls the charging of your coach battery. My 2017 MH's converter has a simple switch to enable lithium charging.



Also, the 2nd photo shows a Precision Circuits battery isolation manager (controls what your engine's alternator is charging, either the coach battery or the starting battery). Contact Precision Circuits to see if that device is compatible with charging lithium. You may need to upgrade to their Battery Guardian product (about $200).
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Old 06-22-2021, 11:19 AM   #4
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Gonna follow this thread.
I only have a 50amp juice package on my wolfpup but would be nice to be able to run the fridge over a day or so.
I do realize it all depends on quality and direction of sun.
I have a label on my fuse box that says lithium ready. It would be nice to get more guidance on how far or what is needed to get that lithium battery without like this poster say, going into more cost.
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Old 06-22-2021, 11:22 AM   #5
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So I think my charger is good.

https://www.etrailer.com/Battery-Cha...s/PD4060K.html

Not sure about a switch or maybe it is automatic.

Best,

NH
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Old 06-22-2021, 12:20 PM   #6
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The breakers and smaller cables in the battery compartment will be for the slides and/or the leveling jacks if so equipped. You're in luck with the BIM too, that's a straight swap with the Lithium BIM from Precision Circuits. The charger is the only other thing to explore now.
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Old 06-22-2021, 01:11 PM   #7
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You should look at the specs for the single 200Ah vs two individual 100Ah batteries.

Sometimes the charge rates are slower for the larger batteries than across the two smaller ones. At least that is what I have read here and other forums. If that is the case then it can take longer to get the bigger battery back to acceptable SOC
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Old 06-22-2021, 01:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roblombardo View Post
The charger is the only other thing to explore now.
So is the charger different than the BIM? (Is the BIM the circuit breaker panel by the bed in the RV?)

From reading one of the other posts, I'm curious if it might be smarter for me to get a 100ah battery and see if it meets my needs. Then come back and add another 100ah if I need more. (there was a comment about a big battery maybe charging slower)

Might be easier and not as long to fire up the generator and get a 100 up to snuff...rather than waiting for the bigger one.

My primary concern (at least right now) is to have power through the night.

I have the "arctic package" so there is extra insulation and some kind of heaters but there is a note on on of the pics that if voltage goes down to a certain level the heaters won't come on.

Oh..and I got an email back from a battery company I was asking questions of..


does this make any sense to you guys?

"For the most part, yes that is how the charging works but itís possible the on-board charging system is out-of-spec for the LiFePO4 and you could run into some complications. Do you think you can find the actual charging control board on your RV?

The battery has a 1 year warranty but can be upgraded to a 2 year warranty through a registration of the product"

How would I find the actual charging board or whatever it is..??

Best,

NH
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Old 06-22-2021, 01:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navyhoosier View Post
So is the charger different than the BIM? (Is the BIM the circuit breaker panel by the bed in the RV?)

From reading one of the other posts, I'm curious if it might be smarter for me to get a 100ah battery and see if it meets my needs. Then come back and add another 100ah if I need more. (there was a comment about a big battery maybe charging slower)

Might be easier and not as long to fire up the generator and get a 100 up to snuff...rather than waiting for the bigger one.

My primary concern (at least right now) is to have power through the night.

I have the "arctic package" so there is extra insulation and some kind of heaters but there is a note on on of the pics that if voltage goes down to a certain level the heaters won't come on.

Oh..and I got an email back from a battery company I was asking questions of..


does this make any sense to you guys?

"For the most part, yes that is how the charging works but itís possible the on-board charging system is out-of-spec for the LiFePO4 and you could run into some complications. Do you think you can find the actual charging control board on your RV?

The battery has a 1 year warranty but can be upgraded to a 2 year warranty through a registration of the product"

How would I find the actual charging board or whatever it is..??

Best,

NH
Your BIM Battery Isolation Manager needs to be upgraded to a Li-BIM LiFePO4 Battery Isolation Manager.

Charging voltages of LiFePO4 are different than OEM lead-acid.

I was able to adjust the my BCC SDC-107A trip voltages to 13.45v. (Same as the Li-BIM.)
See post: How to adjust SDC-107A BCC for Battle Born batteries #17.

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Old 06-22-2021, 01:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navyhoosier View Post
So is the charger different than the BIM? (Is the BIM the circuit breaker panel by the bed in the RV?)

From reading one of the other posts, I'm curious if it might be smarter for me to get a 100ah battery and see if it meets my needs. Then come back and add another 100ah if I need more. (there was a comment about a big battery maybe charging slower)

Might be easier and not as long to fire up the generator and get a 100 up to snuff...rather than waiting for the bigger one.

My primary concern (at least right now) is to have power through the night.

I have the "arctic package" so there is extra insulation and some kind of heaters but there is a note on on of the pics that if voltage goes down to a certain level the heaters won't come on.

Oh..and I got an email back from a battery company I was asking questions of..


does this make any sense to you guys?

"For the most part, yes that is how the charging works but it’s possible the on-board charging system is out-of-spec for the LiFePO4 and you could run into some complications. Do you think you can find the actual charging control board on your RV?

The battery has a 1 year warranty but can be upgraded to a 2 year warranty through a registration of the product"

How would I find the actual charging board or whatever it is..??

Best,

NH

The BIM isolates and couples the house and chassis batteries based on relative voltages. Regardless of how a Lithium battery's usable capacity compares to your current lead acid arrangement, 100Ah is not much.
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Old 06-23-2021, 07:43 AM   #11
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Thanks for all the information. I think I'm starting to understand the system a bit better.


There is still a box I don't quite understand.


So the BIM is in the panel to the left of the battery and is the first picture I'll upload. If I got to lithium, I'll need one that will support that, such as

https://www.solacity.com/product/pre...lator-manager/

or the one from battle born.

Am I right and assuming that I wait to install this until I actually install a lithium battery?

Confirm there is only one BIM I need to worry about.


Next: The unknown box.

Inside my battery compartment are two small boxes that say 60A on them. What do they do? Do they need to be changed for lithium. They should be the second picture I uploaded and then the bigger 3rd pic should show that there are two of them (they look the same to me).


Last: I went ahead and ordered

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It would seem that whatever battery I have I can look on my phone and see state of charge and how much is being used.

Does anyone have a better recommendation, especially if I'm trying to figure out my usage and how long I need to charge to get whatever battery I have "full".

Will the one I ordered work ok with my current lead battery?

I'm considering this as an interim step to get a better understanding of the electricity "cost" of boondocking.

Best,

NH
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Old 06-23-2021, 08:26 AM   #12
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Right now there is no solar on my RV but it is "solar ready" with a plug in place next to the coach door.

Would any of the components have to change again or would there be a different recommendation if I eventually was interested in doing solar as well.

Trying to avoid getting properly set up for lithium and then when I got to add solar hearing "oh..well in that case you need to change these components"

From my brief googling it appears some people change out the "solar ready" plug/style for a different one...perhaps it is more "universal"

Does the answer to my question change depending on the "style" of solar connection that I choose?

Best,

NH
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Old 06-23-2021, 08:47 AM   #13
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No, you’re good with all that equipment. Solar ready doesn’t really mean much, it’s basically just a bulkhead connector and some wires that should route to your battery but sometimes aren’t even connected there. The bulkhead fitting may be a “Zamp” or SAE style, which if you look at the design, depending how you intend to use it as an input or output, the polarity will be reversed. These can be convenient as both a solar input and as a 12V DC output for a air pump or what have you. Personally I prefer the “Furrion” plug/connector as polarity remains the same whether input or output. There are ampacity constraints with this design however. In order to use this plug in this way, you must have the charge controller mounted at the panels. I actually have an onboard charge controller to minimize line loss, therefore I can only use the port as a solar input. Make sense?
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Old 06-23-2021, 08:50 AM   #14
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Interesting.


Why would you want to use the port in a bi directional way?

Why would you want to use the port for "solar output".

Another interesting thing I've noted. Some of my posts seem to require a moderator approval (i uploaded some pics), does that go away after a while.

There is another post about BIMs that is waiting on approval.

Best,

NH
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Old 06-23-2021, 09:01 AM   #15
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Not for solar output, just as a 12V output, as a convenient place to connect 12V accessories you may use around the campsite.
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Old 06-24-2021, 02:10 PM   #16
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[QUOTE=mbutts;2583057]You'll need to contact the manufacturer of your converter (the box with the fuses and circuit breakers in it, not shown in your photos) since it controls the charging of your coach battery. My 2017 MH's converter has a simple switch to enable lithium charging.



Also, the 2nd photo shows a Precision Circuits battery isolation manager (controls what your engine's alternator is charging, either the coach battery or the starting battery). Contact Precision Circuits to see if that device is compatible with charging lithium. You may need to upgrade to their Battery Guardian product (about $200).[/QUOTE

Yes, you may want to change that BIM160 for a lithium isolator to avoid overheating your alternator. Seems a low soc on a lifepo can "suck the life out of an alternator" due to the fact that a lifepo has little or no internal resistane. It's bms can let it "suck" 200 amps from the alternator. Way more than mine is rated for.


If I understand the literature, including the frequently asked questions on the battleborn site and an early tech conference I had with battleborn, the biggest problem with the standard on board charger converter is that it will never top off, the lithium battery.

Also depending on what solar ready means, my last coach came with a solar charger that was only capable of a charge profile for an AGM battery. That was good but battleborn said it would do better than the onboard converter but not as well as a true lithium solar charger.

Our current motorhome has a 60 amp solar charger with a custom circuit and I was able to program the voltages and charge rates recommended by battleborn for my not battleborn batteries.

I find the only difference between programmable custom settings and a lithium setting is that when you take the lithium batteries down to the low voltage cut off the lithium charger will wake them up but the custom settings on my generic charger will not. There's an easy work around so I didn't worry about it. And, with 600 amps of lithium batteries I don't expect that I will ever run them down below the automatic shut off on my BMS.

The only thing I can see that is a must change would be that battery isolator. The lithium battery isolator recommended by battleborn is very similar probably a direct replacement for the Bim 160.

I'm using a 40 amp DC to DC charger to isolate my lithium batteries from my alternator and it tops those babies off without a problem while I'm running the engine. One of my traveling partners has a hundred amps of lithium batteries and he just uses the onboard isolator. His statement to me is well it hasn't burned up the alternator yet.

Best of luck the 200 amp direct replacement seems like a great idea if it'll fit in the spot and otherwise two 100 amps will surely fit there.
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Old 06-24-2021, 02:30 PM   #17
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One thing not yet discussed- you will likely want a different battery monitor. The stock “4 lights” monitor will show “100% charge” with lithium until the batteries are essentially dead. Most choose one of the Victron monitors; I chose the AiLi monitor.

My posts #2, #5 and #6 in this thread:

https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...ml#post2575441

summarize my lithium conversion. The links in the thread lead to earlier posts, which include links to the devices I used.

Also, be aware of the max discharge rate allowed on the battery you are considering. My two 100 amp-hour Battleborn batteries allow 100 amps each - so 200 amps total. This works for my 2000 watt inverter and the starter on my 3600 watt generator. A single battery would not support my inverter. Not sure about the generator.

FYI, Jim
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Old 10-18-2021, 05:30 AM   #18
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Not sure LiFePO4 is worth it?

I really should spend more time on this forum since I've benefitted from the accumulated knowledge of the group in the past. My Saintly Spouse and I are currently obsessed with RV travel planning for the next two years. That means it's time to start figuring out how to keep my sweet Little House (Coachmen Freelander 21QB) healthy and happy in the battery compartment.

The immediate concern is replacing my two aging batteries with: "The Creature from LiFePO4," or Ol' faithful Deep Cycle lead-acid AGM batteries. A usable 100 amp hour capacity will provide us with a 2-3 day off grid option without running the genny.

So, I'm looking for two 12VDC, 100Ah batteries in parallel that aren't bothered by cold winters, will fit into the doorstep battery compartment and work happily with my existing smart charger, Victron battery monitor, and Chevy 4500 alternator. Does lithium fit the bill?

Lithium batteries have come a long way since I last looked, but are they really the best choice here, given the added upgrades and tweaking needed to handle them properly? Their physical form factors are an awkward fit into the space available, it's not clear that my charger is completely compatible with their internal BMS and I want my Chevy alternator to charge them when we're driving without suffering any damage. It also gets really cold here in New England Winter and I don't want to have to bring them inside every year.

So, all things considered, it seems like two 100 Ah AGM deep cycle batteries would do the job nicely. They'd fit the form factor in my entry battery Box, my Victron BMS is compatible and the AGM cost is still about half of the equivalent lithium. I'll need to replace the AGM batteries in five years, but I'd still save money unless the LiFePO4 batteries actually have a useful life of ten years or longer. But who really believes that?

I'll confess to a bias against "Next Big Things" that haven't stood the test of time, but the question remains, what is the total real cost of replacing your existing DC battery system with LiFePO4? What I've learned already is if you are thinking about LiFePO4, take the time to do your homework. If you don't know what "Cold Weather Sensor" means yet, I'd advise digging a little deeper.

I don't really have an ax to grind here, just an RV guy who is looking into this question in mid-Oct 2021 and suspects that the known reliability of AGM batteries is still the best choice.

I ask your opinions and defer to your greater knowledge and experience.

-Grouchy
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Old 10-18-2021, 09:00 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grouchyoldman View Post
I really should spend more time on this forum since I've benefitted from the accumulated knowledge of the group in the past. My Saintly Spouse and I are currently obsessed with RV travel planning for the next two years. That means it's time to start figuring out how to keep my sweet Little House (Coachmen Freelander 21QB) healthy and happy in the battery compartment.

The immediate concern is replacing my two aging batteries with: "The Creature from LiFePO4," or Ol' faithful Deep Cycle lead-acid AGM batteries. A usable 100 amp hour capacity will provide us with a 2-3 day off grid option without running the genny.

So, I'm looking for two 12VDC, 100Ah batteries in parallel that aren't bothered by cold winters, will fit into the doorstep battery compartment and work happily with my existing smart charger, Victron battery monitor, and Chevy 4500 alternator. Does lithium fit the bill?

Lithium batteries have come a long way since I last looked, but are they really the best choice here, given the added upgrades and tweaking needed to handle them properly? Their physical form factors are an awkward fit into the space available, it's not clear that my charger is completely compatible with their internal BMS and I want my Chevy alternator to charge them when we're driving without suffering any damage. It also gets really cold here in New England Winter and I don't want to have to bring them inside every year.

So, all things considered, it seems like two 100 Ah AGM deep cycle batteries would do the job nicely. They'd fit the form factor in my entry battery Box, my Victron BMS is compatible and the AGM cost is still about half of the equivalent lithium. I'll need to replace the AGM batteries in five years, but I'd still save money unless the LiFePO4 batteries actually have a useful life of ten years or longer. But who really believes that?

I'll confess to a bias against "Next Big Things" that haven't stood the test of time, but the question remains, what is the total real cost of replacing your existing DC battery system with LiFePO4? What I've learned already is if you are thinking about LiFePO4, take the time to do your homework. If you don't know what "Cold Weather Sensor" means yet, I'd advise digging a little deeper.

I don't really have an ax to grind here, just an RV guy who is looking into this question in mid-Oct 2021 and suspects that the known reliability of AGM batteries is still the best choice.

I ask your opinions and defer to your greater knowledge and experience.

-Grouchy
Here are some thoughts about going lithium.
1) They are actually cheaper to operate over their lifespan than a lead acid alternative. You will nearly double your usable Amp hours. The charge life cycle of LFP is not theoretical. It is well-known and directly tied to depth of discharge. Itís not unreasonable to expect 8000 cycles from those batteries. If you limit the depth of discharge equal to your current AGM, perhaps 12,000.
2) if your batteries are mounted in the steps, itís my thinking that interior coach temperature will mitigate much of the cold the batteries will experience. A little crafty insulation may further mitigate this concern.
3) Youíll have to verify compatibility with your converter and may have to modify or replace it. A typical AGM profile is not too far off from a typical lithium profile, with the exception of the need for float charging.
4) Your alternator can charge these batteries, depending on your BIM, some mods will be required here. A DC to DC charger or retrofitting a precision circuits lithium BIM are options. Your stock set up likely will never charge the battery because the lithium batteries will never present at a low enough voltage that would indicate its need of charging with the stock BIM.
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Old 10-18-2021, 02:06 PM   #20
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Hi @roblombardo,

I think I understand and agree with each of your helpful points. You are right about all of that, but the question remains: Is the extra expense and headache of replacing a bunch of existing gear warranted for a potential cost savings way down the road?

Honest question, I'm looking at $400 for two high qual 100 ah deep cycle AGM batteries that I can drop in place of my existing batts and rely on them for (maybe) the next five years. They won't damage my alternator, they won't self-destruct if I charge them during winter.

Another question, how do you monitor lith batteries charge levels since the voltage stays constant until it doesn't? I can "feel" the health of my AGM bank from long experience, do you get that way with Lithium? How?

I appreciate your comments and ask the questions above because I'd really like solicit your knowledge. Under my circumstances, "Is it worth it?"

Respectfully,

-Grouchy
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