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Old 04-01-2016, 10:47 AM   #21
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I worked with 12 phase systems. That is confusing! Used to generate high voltage 30 kVDC for Television Transmitters. By having all those phases making smooth filtered DC required smaller capacitors and chokes.
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Old 04-01-2016, 10:48 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ScottBrownstein View Post
First of all, the power pedestal in an RV park (and your house) is always single phase.
I agree with everything you wrote - except the above sentence...

It should be "ALMOST" always single phase... NYC, in a holdover from the Edison/Westinghouse power-war days, actually does deliver 2 phases; and you get 208v hot to hot; 120 hot to neutral.

Otherwise - I think you did a great job explaining the situation!

OP - there are inverters that can be paralleled - but to deliver 50A at 240v, you're looking at 12 kw - assuming a typical 90-ish percent efficient inverter, you're looking at a little over a 1100A as 12vdc... That's not a practical load to try and support. Even at 1/2 load (25A @ 240v) - that's still 550A at 12v.

You'd be better off with a generator, or a pair of paralleled generators (that are purpose built for it, and can cross reference each other's voltages).

Just tying the neutrals of two stand-alone generators together, then letting the hot legs float, can cause all kinds of strange issues...
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Old 04-01-2016, 10:52 AM   #23
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Ok my question is that if you measure access L1- L2 with volt meter would i get 0,120,240? Im thinking im getting 0 with this set up . I have a 30 amp set up at this time but trying to get my head around 50 service for the future. Sorry for the mental block
In a split phase 50 amp system you should always get 240, or something like that between L1 and L2.Then 120 between L1 and neutral and L1 and ground...for L2 as well, and pretty much nothing between neutral and ground (it depends on everybody else who is hooked up if you are at an RV park.) In a 30 amp system, there is no L2.

Most important is 240 between L1 and L2.
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Old 04-01-2016, 10:56 AM   #24
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Ok my question is that if you measure access L1- L2 with volt meter would i get 0,120,240? Im thinking im getting 0 with this set up . I have a 30 amp set up at this time but trying to get my head around 50 service for the future. Sorry for the mental block
In a properly wired 50 amp service you will get 240 volts measuring across L1 & L2.

Feeding a 50 amp service with a 30 amp dog bone adapter you will get 0 volts across L1 & L2.
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Old 04-01-2016, 11:57 AM   #25
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Great discussion guys. But did you notice the OP never came back? I'm sure that folks got a lot of education on the subject, thus it was mucho good!
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Old 04-01-2016, 01:38 PM   #26
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5picker thanks understand now.
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Old 04-01-2016, 07:24 PM   #27
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Great discussion guys. But did you notice the OP never came back? I'm sure that folks got a lot of education on the subject, thus it was mucho good!
I sincerely hope he got his answer.

I know I learned a lot from the continued discussion of this topic.
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:05 PM   #28
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Great discussion guys. But did you notice the OP never came back? I'm sure that folks got a lot of education on the subject, thus it was mucho good!

OK...I'm back again, and I did (briefly) read all the stuff. Basically, this is an eye opener as I always believed the 50 amp service was 240 volt multiple phase. However, the diagram definitely explains why my 30 amp gas generator, with a 30 amp to 50amp adapter (dog bone) makes my 50 amp camper work.
At any rate. Because I was under the impression I needed two 120 volt legs phased to run a 14-50R receptacle, and I never found a single inverter which has two separate legs, my thinking was to run two inverters, one inverter per leg. I now know this will not work. However, I have had a solar engineer say it can work if the two inverters are run 180 degrees out of phase? Which makes my head hurt trying to figure that one out.
At any rate, my 6000 watt gas generator has the 30amp to 50 amp adapter, which works the camper with out problems. what really is odd, is last weekend, I actually turned both AC's on at the same time, and they both worked! Again, my head is hurting trying to figure out how that happened with out shutting anything down.
So, my thinking now, is I only need one inverter, and with the wiring modification, I can make the necessary adapter to plug into my camper. With 30 amps, I can certainly run one AC, (which is all I need anyway). When I turn the generator on, the transfer switch takes over, and I can follow my Happy Path...
Thanks for the help
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:47 PM   #29
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OK, I’m back again, and again, with a question. First off, I understand the discussion and the areas of 120V measured from one line to neutral, and 240v measured from both hot leads. And I even understand the theory of one line where the electron flow in one direction and the other line with electron flow in the opposite direction, and how they approach zero as they move to the neutral…I think.
Here’s what I’m not following: In the schematic on the first page, where the dog-bone adapter has a jumper from line 2 to line 1, I’m seeing no power to line 2.
If Line 2 has no power (because of the adapter jumper) then how does anything work which utilizes Line 2?
Or, is this the area where the voltage “gets” to line 2 over the neutral as the current moves back-and-fourth as discussed?
Or, is line 2 only used for the second AC only…which doesn’t make sense, as both my AC’s are working with the dog-bone adapter.
Also, on my Generator, the outlet for the dog-bone is a 4 wire 14-50R receptacle, and the decal states 120/240 volt outlet.
Thanks for the help
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:14 PM   #30
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I'm still at a loss as to what you are trying to do with the inverter(s) (an inverter changes 12v dc to 120ac).


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Old 04-12-2016, 09:18 PM   #31
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I'm still at a loss as to what you are trying to do with the inverter(s) (an inverter changes 12v dc to 120ac).


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We think he is referring to inverter as possibly an inverter generator, as that is how I tailored any advice offered.
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:35 PM   #32
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In the schematic on the first page, where the dog-bone adapter has a jumper from line 2 to line 1, I’m seeing no power to line 2.
If Line 2 has no power (because of the adapter jumper) then how does anything work which utilizes Line 2?
A 30 amp outlet has no Line 2, just a line 1. When you use the adapter to plug a 50 amp RV (which does have a Line 1 and a Line 2) to a 30 amp outlet, then the L1 and L2 SHARE the only L1 hot line. This is why you call it a jumper. You are jumping the L1 over onto the L2 line too...since that is all there is.

Now, both the L1 and the L2 for the 50 amp RV will both be simultaneously powered....all from the only L1 that the 30 amp outlet has.

However since the 30 amp outlet only has a L1 that is now being shared over with the L2 in your 50 amp RV, then you are going to be limited to a TOTAL of the 30 amps that the L1 can give....for both the L1 and L2 inside the 50 amp RV.

Here is another diagram of the adapter, so you can see internally the shared/jumped L1 (the black line) over to the L2 side.

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Old 04-13-2016, 02:12 PM   #33
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So having learned all this, I now wonder why I have an adapter on the generator other than simply allow the RV Plug to fit the Generator Plug.
Hear me out now before everybody goes Hog Wild…
My generator has a twist lock receptacle which allows a 4 bladed 30 amp plug to be installed (L14-30R).
The generator will supply either 120V or 240V from the L14-30R receptacle, which means that this plug has two hot leads of 120V each. When measured between the two leads, I should get 240V. When measured between one lead to neutral, I should get 120V.
Now, the 50 amp RV plug also has 4 blades with two hot leads of 120V. So my thought is why have an adapter, which shares one of the hot RV leads to the jumped generator adapter? Why couldn’t I simply make my own line with say 4 wire service entrance cable, where the plug at the generator side has a matching L14-30R plug to fit the generator’s L14-30R receptacle. At the RV end of the cable, a 14-50R receptacle is mated to the RV14-50R plug?
I still understand the system is limited to 30 amps, because the generator is rated at 30 amps, but wouldn’t this be a better way to maintain the original design of two hot leads, instead of having a jumper to share the two RV hot leads?
The reason why I bring this up is I would like to have the generator in a barn located about 70 feet away. At this distance, I would like to run a #6 AWG cable, and not have to begin stringing RV power wires together end-to-end.
Thanks for the help
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Old 04-13-2016, 02:54 PM   #34
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You may want to check your generators 240 volt connection as it may be splitting the wattage. You may only have like 15amps per leg, which may not be enought to run an air conditioner.
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Old 04-13-2016, 05:54 PM   #35
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You may want to check your generators 240 volt connection as it may be splitting the wattage. You may only have like 15amps per leg, which may not be enough to run an air conditioner.
That's an excellent idea, I plan on getting out there this weekend, and I'll take the multimeter.
Let's say the generator does have a true 120V on each hot line, measured from line 1 to neutral, and line 2 to neutral. Is my idea of creating a 4 conductor cable, with two hot lines, a neutral and a ground a feasible idea, assuming the conductors are run correctly from the generator outlet to the RV plug?
If it is, a major problem of wire size from the barn, to where the RV is located, will be solved...
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:11 PM   #36
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Same here ?? ... if you are thinking of running the A/C's off an inverter, you're going to have to get a sizable inverter and a trailer full of batteries towed behind your RV as you'll need an immense battery bank. Many only use the inverter for an A/C fridge, CPAP machine, a little TV viewing, or coffee pot. As for the 30 / 50 amp dogbone ... you have one hot leg (30 amp) coming in to your camper that splits that singular power feed down both legs of your 50 amp plug on your fiver. You will still only have 30 amps of available power.
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:31 PM   #37
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Same here ?? ... if you are thinking of running the A/C's off an inverter
Nope...the generator will run the AC's. The Inverter/Charger will run the camper lights, and other small electrical items. The refrigerator will remain LP, along with the furnace and hot water heater.
In the summer, especially at night when I want to sleep in comfort, I'll turn on the generator to run the AC (I will only run 1 AC). While the camper is on generator AC, the batteries will get a recharge from the inverter/charger.
Thanks for the help
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:48 PM   #38
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By the way, at approximately 85 feet where the generator will be located, to the camper, I'm coming up with #6AWG conductor to safely carry the load of a maximum of 30 amps
Thanks
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Old 04-13-2016, 07:36 PM   #39
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RE: Your 240 volt 4 wire plan. It is a good plan. Since each of the 2 legs will carry a maximum of 30 amps, you may be able to use 8 ga. wire, but 6 would be the best.

It would be smart to wire your inverter and converter/charger to the leg which is NOT being used for the A/C that you plan to operate. This is for load balance.



RE: AMPS/WATTS available. From Honda.

Voltage Selector Switch
The voltage selector switch gives you more usable power from the 120V outlets and added flexibility. It allows you to choose between using both 120 and 240 Volts, or 120 Volts only.
Selecting 120V only allows for the total generator output to be available through any of the 120 volt outlets. This enables you to power units with larger wattage requirements.
What’s the difference between 120V/240V and 120V only?
On a typical 120V / 240V generator, each of the 120V outlets gets only half of the generator’s capacity. For a 5000W generator, that would be only 2500W at any given 120V outlet. The full 5000W is only available at the 240V outlet. This limits the amount of 120V power you can use.
But with a Honda voltage selector switch, you can essentially turn off the 240V outlet. This means the full 5000 watts are available from the 120 V outlets, limited only by the capacity of the individual outlet.
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:32 AM   #40
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It would be smart to wire your inverter and converter/charger to the leg which is NOT being used for the A/C that you plan to operate. This is for load balance.
Good Idea...
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