Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-29-2012, 09:52 PM   #1
Member
 
RONSTAR911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Delta BC
Posts: 34
Alco Torsion Axle mounts sheared off!

My Camping season ended yesterday when my 2009 Palomino Banshee Tent trailers axlel tore away from the frame and jammed my wheels into the fender wells, I had to get it towed home on a flat deck a hundred miles back to home. I found one other thread on here about the mounts cracking but I guess mine went all the way. Im assuming I will have to replace the entire axle, but wonder how this happened? If I was overloaded (probably the case) can i put the next size one in so this does not happen again. Its a single 3500 pound Alco Torsion setup with 15" "offroad" tire and ride height. here are some pictures. let me know what you guys think.

1. is this a known weak point on these axels?
2. do you think the manufacturer will do anything for me?
3. where is the cheapest place to find replacement axles?
Thanks everyone
Ron Y
Delta B.C.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF2184.jpg
Views:	573
Size:	57.3 KB
ID:	17254   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF2187.jpg
Views:	552
Size:	58.2 KB
ID:	17255  
__________________
2009 Palomino Banshee B1 Off Road,
TV: 2004 Chevy Tahoe LS 4WD.
RONSTAR911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2012, 10:09 PM   #2
Mod free 5er
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by RONSTAR911 View Post
My Camping season ended yesterday when my 2009 Palomino Banshee Tent trailers axlel tore away from the frame and jammed my wheels into the fender wells, I had to get it towed home on a flat deck a hundred miles back to home. I found one other thread on here about the mounts cracking but I guess mine went all the way. Im assuming I will have to replace the entire axle, but wonder how this happened? If I was overloaded (probably the case) can i put the next size one in so this does not happen again. Its a single 3500 pound Alco Torsion setup with 15" "offroad" tire and ride height. here are some pictures. let me know what you guys think.

1. is this a known weak point on these axels?
2. do you think the manufacturer will do anything for me?
3. where is the cheapest place to find replacement axles?
Thanks everyone
Ron Y
Delta B.C.
Never heard of it before, but looks like the bolts were not torqued.
__________________
OldCoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2012, 10:53 PM   #3
Member
 
RONSTAR911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Delta BC
Posts: 34
Yes I wondered about that myself judging by the way it pulled out like that. I pulled out the alco owners manual and sure enough it says every 6000 miles/ 6 months these bolts should be checked and retourqued to spec. WHO KNEW THAT? I doubt the thousands of people who own these axels on their trailer know they should be checking the mounting bolts! . That even makes me more frustrated because Im mister preventative maintance when it comes to my trailer, knowing it may have been prevented by me checking them once in a while makes me sick.
__________________
2009 Palomino Banshee B1 Off Road,
TV: 2004 Chevy Tahoe LS 4WD.
RONSTAR911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 08:10 AM   #4
Phat Phrog Stunt Team
 
TURBS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Iowa
Posts: 34,498
Wow that's weird how that tore away !
TURBS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 08:55 AM   #5
Mod free 5er
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by f1100turbo View Post
Wow that's weird how that tore away !
With the bolts not being torqued, the shock load of the torsion axle transmitted to the mounts will accelerate the metal fatigue. Once it gets to approx. 0.015" to 0.030" clearance, it accelerates much faster and when it gets to 0.25", all hell breaks loose.
__________________
OldCoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 09:02 AM   #6
Moderator Emeritus
 
Triguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
Posts: 6,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by RONSTAR911 View Post
I pulled out the alco owners manual and sure enough it says every 6000 miles/ 6 months these bolts should be checked and retourqued to spec. WHO KNEW THAT?

I, for one, did not know that. Thanks for the warning.
__________________
Scott
DW, 3 Kids and our Goldens

2012 Shamrock 233S
2008 Toyota Sequoia 5.7L 4WD
Triguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 09:23 PM   #7
Member
 
MIKE44460's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunnnc View Post
Never heard of it before, but looks like the bolts were not torqued.
Excuse me. The bolts are intact, the top photo shows the metal ripped around the, and the lower photo shows the metal tearing at the weakest point, the bend. Look how far the centerline of the axle/wheel is from the point of movement in the tube with the rubber springs are located. The wheel had a lot of leverage and the weakest points failed.

I was under my RV last week and I see things that have me scratching my head.
__________________
Mike & Lu Anne
& our Jack Russell 'Genny'
2011 Flagstaff 831FKBSS
2011 Chevy CC Duramax Z/71
OH plate GM DMAX
Hensley Arrow
MIKE44460 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 10:21 PM   #8
Mod free 5er
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKE44460 View Post
Excuse me. The bolts are intact, the top photo shows the metal ripped around the, and the lower photo shows the metal tearing at the weakest point, the bend. Look how far the centerline of the axle/wheel is from the point of movement in the tube with the rubber springs are located. The wheel had a lot of leverage and the weakest points failed.

I was under my RV last week and I see things that have me scratching my head.
Both photos show where the axle was shifting (shined metal around the washers) and the top picture shows where it tore around the hole and twisted.
__________________
OldCoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 10:55 PM   #9
Moderator Emeritus
 
acadianbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,159
Wow! I've got 25,000 miles on mine and have pounded the crap out of it on some very rough roads. I better check!! THANKS!!
__________________
https://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp297/acadianbob/IMG_2757.jpg
2018 F250 Lariat 6.2 4X4 w 4.30s, 2018 Wildcat 29RLX
2012 BMW G650GS, Demco Premiere Slider
1969 John Deere 1020, 1940 Ford 9N, 1948 Ford 8N
Jonsered 535, Can of WD-40, Duct Tape
Red Green coffee mugs
acadianbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 08:13 PM   #10
Member
 
RONSTAR911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Delta BC
Posts: 34
Well, I'm pretty sure that the design is flawed. There should be a heavier bracket or extended farther to offset the pivot point as the other gentleman pointed out the swing arm is very far back compared to the location of the bracket. Either way I have to fix it And prevent it from happening again. I'm considering upping to the 4000 pound model although it still uses the same bracket setup.
__________________
2009 Palomino Banshee B1 Off Road,
TV: 2004 Chevy Tahoe LS 4WD.
RONSTAR911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 08:23 PM   #11
Mod free 5er
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by RONSTAR911 View Post
Well, I'm pretty sure that the design is flawed. There should be a heavier bracket or extended farther to offset the pivot point as the other gentleman pointed out the swing arm is very far back compared to the location of the bracket. Either way I have to fix it And prevent it from happening again. I'm considering upping to the 4000 pound model although it still uses the same bracket setup.
Beg to differ on the design flaw and a heavier bracket, too many out there without your problem. Maybe heavier gauge hardened washers. The lack of torque on the bolt is the culprit. Should it have come loose, no, but maybe a larger gr 8 bolt, hardened washers & nuts would have prevented it. But, bottom line, being loose caused the problem.
__________________
OldCoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 08:37 PM   #12
Member
 
RONSTAR911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Delta BC
Posts: 34
Al-co manual :see page 31 for torque specs

Alco manual.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf ALKO_2kto7k_OM.pdf (9.29 MB, 171 views)
__________________
2009 Palomino Banshee B1 Off Road,
TV: 2004 Chevy Tahoe LS 4WD.
RONSTAR911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 08:48 PM   #13
Mod free 5er
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,705
Did you ever check the torque on the bolts? If the nuts or bolts were eating into the washers, they should have been replaced with hardened washers. They are no doubt gr8 bolts from the torque values. The factory may not have used hardened washers which is a no-no when using any gr8 hardware from a design standpoint.
__________________
OldCoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 09:00 PM   #14
Member
 
RONSTAR911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Delta BC
Posts: 34
No I never did check the torque, I agree that the bolts came loose and then it was all a matter of time. One point you make is interesting, on the side that pulled out the washer is bent over the nut indicating it was NOT Gr8 hardware. It will be interesting to see how many people when they check theirs find or not find issues or cracks/loose nuts.
__________________
2009 Palomino Banshee B1 Off Road,
TV: 2004 Chevy Tahoe LS 4WD.
RONSTAR911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 09:05 PM   #15
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 51
They are using stop nuts or locking nut which ever you prefer to call them. Those are a one time use component. They can not be torque do to the fact of resistance from the nut nor should they come loose. I disagree with re-torquing without changing out nut.
fkent1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 09:07 PM   #16
Mod free 5er
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by RONSTAR911 View Post
No I never did check the torque, I agree that the bolts came loose and then it was all a matter of time. One point you make is interesting, on the side that pulled out the washer is bent over the nut indicating it was NOT Gr8 hardware. It will be interesting to see how many people when they check theirs find or not find issues or cracks/loose nuts.
You are correct, hardened washers do not bend, they break. As I stated before, when a knowledgeable engineer specifies gr8 bolts, nuts and hardened washers on 1018 steel or the material being clamped is heat treated (hardened) and doesn't require the hardened washers.

No doubt the assembler either grabbed soft washers or someone didn't specify hardened washers, either way, bad mistake.
__________________
OldCoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 09:18 PM   #17
Member
 
RONSTAR911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Delta BC
Posts: 34
Grade 8 Hardware

Also interesting point Fkent, I have installed many trailer hitches over the years and they ALWAYS use Gr8 Hrdware and a Gr8 Lockwasher and Nut. NOT a NYlock for that same reason. I will definitly be replacing all that hardware when I repair it. Thanks for the input.
__________________
2009 Palomino Banshee B1 Off Road,
TV: 2004 Chevy Tahoe LS 4WD.
RONSTAR911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2012, 09:30 PM   #18
Mod free 5er
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by fkent1 View Post
They are using stop nuts or locking nut which ever you prefer to call them. Those are a one time use component. They can not be torque do to the fact of resistance from the nut nor should they come loose. I disagree with re-torquing without changing out nut.
Gr8 lock nuts can be used more than once. Read SAE J429 spec on locknuts.
Federal Aviation Administration Advisory Circular allows nuts to be reused if the prevailing torque is within specification.
__________________
OldCoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 02:04 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
lindy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jamestown NY
Posts: 588
Just looked under mine at the ALCO axle mounts - no need to retorque the bolt, the brackets WELDED to the frame????? Now I guess I'll have to crawl under it after EVERY TOW and inspect the welds, with the way welds seem to be failing on TT's. Oh well.
__________________

2012 Winnebago "Journey To Insanity" 40U
2008 Dakota Sport 4x4
2004 Subaru Baja - DW's
2006 Honda Shadow Aero - TOAD for now.
F.R.O.G. member
lindy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 02:15 PM   #20
Mod free 5er
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindy View Post
Just looked under mine at the ALCO axle mounts - no need to retorque the bolt, the brackets WELDED to the frame????? Now I guess I'll have to crawl under it after EVERY TOW and inspect the welds, with the way welds seem to be failing on TT's. Oh well.
Being the paranoid person I am, I would still replace the soft washers with hardened ones and re-torque the bolts.
__________________
OldCoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
axle

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Forest River, Inc. or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06 AM.