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Old 11-24-2019, 12:33 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by phillyg View Post

--I've read in several places that its improper to use different tires on the same axle (recall the OP had the new tires on one side only).
-
The admonition against having "different" tires on the same axle is more for powered vehicles. Different tires on a steer axle can cause handling issues (such as pull to one side or the other if different construction or size.

Different tires on drive axles can cause issues with drive train, especially with limited slip differentials.

Vehicles with ABS (like all of them today) require tires to be within size variation limits (diameter).

On a trailer where each tire is running independent of all others, they perform no steering function, or propulsion, the only caveats are load carrying capability and diameter. You can put a tire from four different manufacturers on a tandem axle trailer and not have any problems as long as they are the same size and load range.

That said, some of that mismatched set may wear faster than the others but that's more a function of different tire compounds than the fact the tires "look different".
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Old 11-24-2019, 12:41 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by frank4711 View Post
Quote from U.S. Tire Manufactures Association “The placard or owner’s manual provides the vehicle manufacturer-specified tire size and inflation pressures, considering the vehicle’s maximum load carrying requirements. If tire size changes, the new size must have an equal or greater load carrying capacity versus the original equipment placard size. If you make vehicle modifications, consult the vehicle manufacturer for guidelines,”
The only thing that matters when changing tire sizes on any vehicle. The only time one is "violating any REGULATION is when they replace a tire with one that is "inferior" (load carrying ability) to the OE tire.

It's kind of like buying a truck. If you have a 1/2 ton truck and it carries/tows what you own, buying a 3/4 or 1 ton truck is certainly not going to be an issue. However if you decide you are going to buy a small SUV to carry or tow the same load, now you're in trouble.

The problem with "regulations" is that all to many read them see them as "black and white". No where in any regulation does it say you can't exceed the recomendations for load carrying.

As far as the regulations quoted frequently they had their genesis many years ago when commercial truck operators merely over-inflated tires in order to carry the heavy loads, often opting for less expensive tires. After all, when you're buying 18 tires the costs add up. Same occurred on the manufacturer's side. Tires didn't match gross weight capacity stated. As usual, it took regulations to stop these practices.

Same for auto manufacturers who used to put the smallest tire they could on a vehicle to get it out of the factory and then recommend an inflation that gave the smoothest ride.
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:51 PM   #43
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The only thing that matters when changing tire sizes on any vehicle. The only time one is "violating any REGULATION is when they replace a tire with one that is "inferior" (load carrying ability) to the OE tire.

It's kind of like buying a truck. If you have a 1/2 ton truck and it carries/tows what you own, buying a 3/4 or 1 ton truck is certainly not going to be an issue. However if you decide you are going to buy a small SUV to carry or tow the same load, now you're in trouble.

The problem with "regulations" is that all to many read them see them as "black and white". No where in any regulation does it say you can't exceed the recomendations for load carrying.

As far as the regulations quoted frequently they had their genesis many years ago when commercial truck operators merely over-inflated tires in order to carry the heavy loads, often opting for less expensive tires. After all, when you're buying 18 tires the costs add up. Same occurred on the manufacturer's side. Tires didn't match gross weight capacity stated. As usual, it took regulations to stop these practices.

Same for auto manufacturers who used to put the smallest tire they could on a vehicle to get it out of the factory and then recommend an inflation that gave the smoothest ride.
Verbatim quote from the pages of USTMA document.

[COLOR="DarkOrange"If fitment of a new tire (other than the OE size) on the vehicle requires a higher inflation pressure than specified on the vehicle tire placard to adequately carry the load, the installer should inform the owner of the new required inflation pressure. The installer should also place a sticker or decal next to the vehicle tire placard showing the new tire size and inflation pressure requirements for future reference. "][/COLOR]
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Old 11-24-2019, 02:57 PM   #44
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Okay, that makes sense.
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:04 PM   #45
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Just curious, how long did you work in the tire industry?

The term "plus sizing" has nothing to do with merely changing to an LT type tire fron an ST. It has to do with the practice of installing a WIDER tire while not significantly changing the tire's diameter.

One example would be replacing a 205/55-16 tire with a 215/45/17 for a "Plus One" or a 225/40-18 for a Plus two. As the wheel diameter goes up, the aspect ratio goes down. Tire gets wider (about 10mm) but OD doesn't change.

For trailers the OD isn't as important as Auto/truck fitments where wheel speed changes can affect ABS, engine, transmission, operating parameters. Only worry with trailers is tire to tire spacing on tandems and tire to body clearance.

Plus Sizing has nothing to do with load carrying capabilities as changing wheel size and tire aspect ratio usually results in a tire that carries the same load at max inflation.
The plusses don't apply when changing designated sizes. There are clearly different tire mechanics involved with the design change. The most outstanding ones are load capacities and speed ratings.

The official load capacity calculators differ considerably. The passenger tires use the load index numbers whereas the LT tires uses the load range letter.

I cannot overstress the purpose of load inflation charts. They are a tire industry tool. They can only be used properly when applied properly.
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:11 PM   #46
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The only thing that matters when changing tire sizes on any vehicle. The only time one is "violating any REGULATION is when they replace a tire with one that is "inferior" (load carrying ability) to the OE tire.

It's kind of like buying a truck. If you have a 1/2 ton truck and it carries/tows what you own, buying a 3/4 or 1 ton truck is certainly not going to be an issue. However if you decide you are going to buy a small SUV to carry or tow the same load, now you're in trouble.

The problem with "regulations" is that all to many read them see them as "black and white". No where in any regulation does it say you can't exceed the recomendations for load carrying.

As far as the regulations quoted frequently they had their genesis many years ago when commercial truck operators merely over-inflated tires in order to carry the heavy loads, often opting for less expensive tires. After all, when you're buying 18 tires the costs add up. Same occurred on the manufacturer's side. Tires didn't match gross weight capacity stated. As usual, it took regulations to stop these practices.

Same for auto manufacturers who used to put the smallest tire they could on a vehicle to get it out of the factory and then recommend an inflation that gave the smoothest ride.
"Vehicle modifications" can only be approved by the vehicle manufacturer or a certified vehicle modifier. Equipment modifications, such as wheel, axle, tire /brakes can be modified without such approval. The vehicle GVWR/GAWRs remain the same. Pen & ink changes to the cargo capacity label are allowed when equipment modifications exceed a combined 100#.
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:13 PM   #47
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"I cannot over stress the purpose of load inflation charts. They are a tire industry tool. They can only be used properly when applied properly." Okay ... is this a proper chart?? it is what I used to determine my psi https://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static...+inflation.pdf Note the title of the chart
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Old 11-24-2019, 03:53 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by phillyg View Post
Okay Airdale, I hear you, but I clearly do not know the "regulations" as well as you. Regardless, here's my bottom line thinking, and a request:

--I've read in several places that its improper to use different tires on the same axle (recall the OP had the new tires on one side only). The general rule is to use tires with the same designated size and construction on an axle.

--I recommended he get two more (to match), and because his old ones are probably next to blow.
--Regardless of the regs, and using Sailun as an example, they publish a load chart for their ST tires showing psi as low as 80, for tires that are max rated at 110psi. It makes no sense that Sailun would publish a chart if it was not required. It makes sense to use 110psi for, say, a 16,000lb max load trailer, but less psi for a 13,000lb trailer, based on their chart. I have looked for, but never found, any regulation requiring we use max psi on ST tires. In the past some ST manufacturers have recommended that their tires should be inflated to full sidewall pressures. However, they could not make it a mandatory recommendation because the do not have the authority to dictate recommended vehicle tire inflation pressures to vehicle manufacturers.

---Tire questions usually involve upgrading to more capable tires. I can't recall anyone asking about lowering their capacity. Therefore, using the placard as a baseline, and changing from, for example, a D-rated ST tire to an E-rated ST tire in the same size, seems to comply with the spirit of the regulation, whatever it might be. When replacing tires with a LRD load capacity to a like designated size LRE, you are not actually changing tire size. The LRE has a couple more plies in their rating which allows more inflation pressure for the extra load capacity they will provide if the owner so chooses to use it.

Perhaps it would help if you would apply your knowledge to a real-life example, using a placard to determine how one could upgrade their tires, get the psi right, achieve better tire experiences, and not run afoul of the regs.
The step by step procedures for replacement from a ST235/80R16 LRE to a ST235/85R16 LRE is simple but complicated. The 85 tire will invalidate all information in the owner's manual, certification label, and tire placard. Why? Because the recommended tire inflation pressures will change. Why? Normally the vehicle manufacturer will set the recommended inflation pressure for the OE 80 tires to 80 PSI. The proper recommended inflation pressure for the 85 tire to comply with the OE tires would be a about 74 PSI.
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Old 11-24-2019, 04:05 PM   #49
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"I cannot over stress the purpose of load inflation charts. They are a tire industry tool. They can only be used properly when applied properly." Okay ... is this a proper chart?? it is what I used to determine my psi https://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static...+inflation.pdf Note the title of the chart
It's just a difference in presentation. In your reference above, on the very first page the left column provides step by step procedures to follow. To me that is a tool that all can use.

Load inflation charts are developed for all tire sizes. They are a result of a collaboration of information for needs (Vehicle Manufacturers) and developed by the Tire Manufacturers. They are standardized and approved by the TRA.
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Old 11-24-2019, 04:19 PM   #50
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I got into this thread because of disinformation.

So I'll leave it with this thought.

FMCSA regulations are for commercial vehicles.
FMVSS (standards) are for all other automotive vehicles.

Intermingling them is not recommended because either one is not applicable to the other.
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Old 11-24-2019, 04:21 PM   #51
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"Vehicle modifications" can only be approved by the vehicle manufacturer or a certified vehicle modifier. Equipment modifications, such as wheel, axle, tire /brakes can be modified without such approval. The vehicle GVWR/GAWRs remain the same. Pen & ink changes to the cargo capacity label are allowed when equipment modifications exceed a combined 100#.
So who's saying anything different. People post how they change tire load ranges (allowed) and tire pressures to match actual load (allowed if it's not to increase the GAWR) and yet you keep telling us all it's "not allowed by regulation".
Most, if not all, tire changes are for the purpose of increasing the safety margin form the minimal one provided by the OEM to a significantly higher margin. Also to increase the speed rating of the tire which also contributes to safety.

FWIW, what do you do when the tire size/pressure/load sticker is washed off the side of the RV either by weather or a pressure washer.



Don't know about you but I wrote the new tire sizes down, along with proper pressures for my load (which does not exceed Mfr's certification numbers) and keep it inside the front cover of my "Owner's Manual". I'll bet that I'm not the only one out there that does likewise.


Much of what you've lectured us on really only applies to regulated fleets or before "First Sale". Not consumers. In a way it's like telling us we have to follow commercial truck driver's rules, keeping log books and only driving limited hours before a rest is required.


How many jack up their 4X4's without the "Manufacturer's permission. Add rear bumper storage to their Travel Trailers, Change Headlights (another regulated item) without any "permission".

FWIW, when it comes to regulations there are a lot that I ignore. It's against "Regulations" to pull over in a wide spot in the road and relieve myself when I feel the need. I'll bet I'm not the only one that does that either. I've also been known to spit out my window when no other cars are around.




BTW, you never answered my question "How long did you work in the tire industry?"
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Old 11-24-2019, 04:37 PM   #52
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The step by step procedures for replacement from a ST235/80R16 LRE to a ST235/85R16 LRE is simple but complicated. The 85 tire will invalidate all information in the owner's manual, certification label, and tire placard. Why? Because the recommended tire inflation pressures will change. Why? Normally the vehicle manufacturer will set the recommended inflation pressure for the OE 80 tires to 80 PSI. The proper recommended inflation pressure for the 85 tire to comply with the OE tires would be a about 74 PSI.
Geeez enough all ready with the regulations . 6psi won't hurt a dang bit and it's becoming ridiculous to the point of absurdity ! simple yet complicated . you are a funny man
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Old 11-24-2019, 04:47 PM   #53
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So who's saying anything different. People post how they change tire load ranges (allowed) and tire pressures to match actual load (allowed if it's not to increase the GAWR) and yet you keep telling us all it's "not allowed by regulation". " To match actual load" is a FMCSA regulation and I donot support intermingling them when talking automotive tires.(FMVSS)


FWIW, what do you do when the tire size/pressure/load sticker is washed off the side of the RV either by weather or a pressure washer.



Don't know about you but I wrote the new tire sizes down, along with proper pressures for my load (which does not exceed Mfr's certification numbers) and keep it inside the front cover of my "Owner's Manual". I'll bet that I'm not the only one out there that does likewise.


Much of what you've lectured us on really only applies to regulated fleets or before "First Sale". Not consumers. In a way it's like telling us we have to follow commercial truck driver's rules, keeping log books and only driving limited hours before a rest is required.


How many jack up their 4X4's without the "Manufacturer's permission. Add rear bumper storage to their Travel Trailers, Change Headlights (another regulated item) without any "permission". With tires, the permission statement in all owner's manuals is a NHTSA mandate.

FWIW, when it comes to regulations there are a lot that I ignore. It's against "Regulations" to pull over in a wide spot in the road and relieve myself when I feel the need. I'll bet I'm not the only one that does that either. I've also been known to spit out my window when no other cars are around.




BTW, you never answered my question "How long did you work in the tire industry?"
I get the impression you don't know what the term "load capacity reserves" means. When a tire is providing more load capacity than what the tire is actually carrying, that extra capacity above the load carried is load capacity reserves. The entire RV trailer industry is now provided with 10% in load capacity reserves with all OEM tires.
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Old 11-24-2019, 04:51 PM   #54
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Geeez enough all ready with the regulations . 6psi won't hurt a dang bit and it's becoming ridiculous to the point of absurdity ! simple yet complicated . you are a funny man
Sorry you didn't under the statement as its a statement of fact.
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Old 11-24-2019, 05:37 PM   #55
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I get the impression you don't know what the term "load capacity reserves" means. When a tire is providing more load capacity than what the tire is actually carrying, that extra capacity above the load carried is load capacity reserves. The entire RV trailer industry is now provided with 10% in load capacity reserves with all OEM tires.

I know full well what Load Capacity Reserves" means and after 40+ years in the tire and related industry.

I also know that for years auto, light truck, and trailer manufacturers DIDN'T provide any reserve capacity.

FWIW, the tires that came OE on my trailer had a whopping .5 % (Yes that's a decimal in front of the number 5) "reserve capacity" above that of the axles.

Axle capacity to total GVWR is hardly + 10% more. GVWR for my model is 6715 lbs and axle rating is 2X3500 lbs. My simple calculator shows that to be just under 6% although some of the weight is carried on the tongue which I weigh at 800#. Since my tires are only supporting a max of #5900 lbs and the current tires can support 10% more than the axle rating at my chosen inflation pressure.

BTW, my ACTUAL Scale weight on the axles is 6280 lbs with everything I need for a month on the road except the last two weeks groceries. Water tank full and even a 100# generator mounted on the back bumper (horrors, broke another rule).
Somehow I feel that I have plenty of load reserve in every category.


I prefer more like 15% load reserve capacity to allow for possible uneven loading as well as "shock loading" as the trailer travels down bumpy roads.

Seems like that's what most who replace tires with greater load carrying ability (rating) are doing.


BTW, still evading my question I see.
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Old 11-26-2019, 02:31 PM   #56
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Sorry you didn't under the statement as its a statement of fact.
Lets see , didn't under the statement . yes i undered the statement , it's a joke because inflating the 85 to 80 psi will spell doom and gloom for all involved . will invalidate any and all stickers and the sticker police will be at your door , get ready for prison . if you inflate to more then 74.3 you will create and hazard for all .. dam i took the tag off my mattress also
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Old 11-26-2019, 03:57 PM   #57
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Lets see , didn't under the statement . yes i undered the statement , it's a joke because inflating the 85 to 80 psi will spell doom and gloom for all involved . will invalidate any and all stickers and the sticker police will be at your door , get ready for prison . if you inflate to more then 74.3 you will create and hazard for all .. dam i took the tag off my mattress also

You missed the intent of the post.

When using plus sized tires, the tire inflation information provided in the vehicle owner's manual, on the vehicle certification label and tire load and inflation placard are invalidated because of the different load capacities provided by the replacement tires.

The proper procedure is for the installer to establish a new recommended cold inflation pressure. NHTSA allows the use of an auxiliary placard affixed next to the original vehicle placards and recommends a pen & ink notation be made in the vehicle owners manual showing the new recommended cold inflation pressures for the plus sized tires. You're not going to get your knuckles slapped for not doing any of that, its just a standardized safety procedure to follow. In the case above, the new recommended cold inflation pressures would be 74 PSI. Everyone should already know that any inflation pressures used from what has been recommended to the maximum needed for full load capacity from the tires is optional.

The tire industry and FMVSS (standards) are firm in this statement. Never us inflation pressures that are less than what has been recommended by the vehicle manufacturer." Because of that statement new recommended inflation pressures need to be established for plus sized tires. Remember, FMVSS (standards) are minimum standards the vehicle manufacturer MUST establish. With tires the USTMA supports the vehicle manufacturer's minimum recommended cold inflation pressures with this caveat; replacement tires must provide a load capacity equal to or greater than what the OE tires provided.
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Old 11-26-2019, 04:28 PM   #58
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Bet that was a fun trip overall. So much for technology ! Did you manually check the pressure at any time? Gauges are cheap.
This subject certainly gets everyone out of their lazyboys. Yikes! I just
wanted to get a couple ideas on how I should proceed. And yes I check the tire pressure all the time. That day tires were properly inflated. Although, after all
the comments,I'm not sure what that is anymore. HAHA

Thanks for everyone's input.
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Old 11-26-2019, 04:36 PM   #59
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You missed the intent of the post.

When using plus sized tires, the tire inflation information provided in the vehicle owner's manual, on the vehicle certification label and tire load and inflation placard are invalidated because of the different load capacities provided by the replacement tires.

The proper procedure is for the installer to establish a new recommended cold inflation pressure. NHTSA allows the use of an auxiliary placard affixed next to the original vehicle placards and recommends a pen & ink notation be made in the vehicle owners manual showing the new recommended cold inflation pressures for the plus sized tires. You're not going to get your knuckles slapped for not doing any of that, its just a standardized safety procedure to follow. In the case above, the new recommended cold inflation pressures would be 74 PSI. Everyone should already know that any inflation pressures used from what has been recommended to the maximum needed for full load capacity from the tires is optional.

The tire industry and FMVSS (standards) are firm in this statement. Never us inflation pressures that are less than what has been recommended by the vehicle manufacturer." Because of that statement new recommended inflation pressures need to be established for plus sized tires. Remember, FMVSS (standards) are minimum standards the vehicle manufacturer MUST establish. With tires the USTMA supports the vehicle manufacturer's minimum recommended cold inflation pressures with this caveat; replacement tires must provide a load capacity equal to or greater than what the OE tires provided.
We get it we got it and no need to assume we don't . It's simply not something to worry about . up-grade tires use the inflation that you feel good with and move on . You're like a broken record
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Old 11-26-2019, 06:16 PM   #60
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We get it we got it and no need to assume we don't . It's simply not something to worry about . up-grade tires use the inflation that you feel good with and move on . You're like a broken record
Do you'll know when and how to do your wheel bearings or do you just wing it?
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