Axle problems on Grey Wolf 29DSFB

[davel1971]

Originally Posted by BigBaron

You haven't read about my adventures with Coachmen QC issues, have you?
They seem to have more than their fair share of QC issues than the other FR brands.

I still don't think its relevant. They are all built from the very same components whether you spent $10,000 or $80,000. Assembled with the same questionable workmanship, just good enough to barely stay together. That's why we are all here sharing our issues and how we fix it and make it better ourselves.

[TeJay]

I'm still amazed that FR installed TWO not one but TWO sets of bias belted tires on your TT. Do you know hoe STUPID that is????? Bias belted tires went out the window 30 years ago. NO BODY in their right mind would install BIAS belted tires on anything except a garden swing, golf cart or a wheel barrow.

Why do some TT manufacturers do it??? To save a few bucks and they believe the side wall construction is tougher for the flexing that a TT endures when turning tight turns. The amount of time spent turning tight corners is insignificant when compared to the amount of time it's going straight down the road.
This is a ture story that I experienced back in 1985. I restored a 1953 GMC pick-up which had straight axles on the front. On first trip home after getting it running I couldn't keep the thing on the road. It took both hands white knuckled driving to stay on the road. Every bump tried to throw it off. A few days later I had a set of old radial tires in the shop and I put them on. On the trip home I held just three fingers on the wheel and had no problems. That's just how much improvement radials make over bias tires.

As stated if your new axles have an arch the arch goes up. If it goes down they were installed upside down.

If you want to keep the TT and don't want to upgrade to heavier axles, tires and rims or even if you do then you need to find a good trailer shop that can check alignment and then correctly install axles and decent tires.

Regardless of their so called insurance regulations that prevent you in their work area (that's BS) you need to ask them to show you what's wrong and then how they fixed it. Don't just assume that they will do the correct thing. If the alignment is off they should be able to show you how they read it and what the reading should be. Asking for reports like that is not asking to much. If you don't know what to ask then call somebody on these forums to get some info on what to ask.

TeJay

[Ford Idaho]

Originally Posted by lil2low

I have the same year and model trailer but without the issues you are having. I also tow it with an Expedition! If there are any details you need, let me know and I will take a look at my trailer.

Look at your axels, are they on top or under the springs?

[davel1971]

TeJay, look around. Bias ply tires are on 99% of travel trailers. As with warranty replacement parts, whether its your camper, truck, or an appliance in your home, you get a replacement part equivalent to what was taken off, not a free upgrade.

[TeJay]

dave1971,
I have looked around and do not believe it's that high of a percentage. We had three TT's and all 3 came with radials. You said it yourself that radials are an "UPGRADE."

Lets just assume that it is correct how does that make it the better tire for TT's??? Bias belted tires: Higher rolling friction, more tire wear and more gas to pull it. Less side wall flex gives it a rougher ride. Radials will do the exact opposite.

Here's another point. Just because a very high percentage of TT's don't have shocks does not make it right. It's just what the TT industry has done and few really complain. Shocks: reduce/dampen suspension movement which reduces the TT's effect on the TV and protects your stuff in the TT. Reduce suspension movement also contributes to less TT sway and they handle better. Besides utility trailers, boat trailers and most TT's there is no other suspension system traveling down our highways that does not have shocks. It's not cost either. I put shocks on my TT for $150. With their buying power it wouldn't cost $50.
I'll never accept that just because everybody does it then it must be the right or best thing to do. I operate on facts. Facts and advantages of shocks and radial tires far outweigh the disadvantages of not having them.

We might as well throw in self-adjusting brakes into the mix. They came out standard in the 50's. Most TT's still don't have them. If you've got Dexters you probably do. Please don't tell me how hard it is to back up your TT just to adjust the brakes. That's one excuse I got from somebody. You don't even think about backing up your truck/car and hitting the brakes just to adjust them. When you back your TT into a spot it will self-adjust. If you use mostly pull throughs some TT's have adjusting brakes that adjust when pulling forward. They are not standard because of saving a few bucks.

TeJay

[Dave_Monica]

A word of caution with the recommendation of changing the OP's camper to higher rated axles, wheels and tires. I don't think that its safe to assume that should you install higher rated axles, wheels and tires that you now have increased carrying capacity or GVWR. In the past, manufacturers have set the GVWR by adding dry tongue or pin weight to the axle capacity. If you review manufacturers specs as I do, you'll notice that the practice isn't always followed and frequently the campers GVWR is less that the sum of those numbers. To me that's a sure sign that some company engineer has been doing some calculating to determine that the factor limiting total camper weight isn't the axle rating...could be the frame design/capacity.

Dave

[davel1971]

Originally Posted by TeJay

dave1971,
I have looked around and do not believe it's that high of a percentage. We had three TT's and all 3 came with radials. You said it yourself that radials are an "UPGRADE."

Lets just assume that it is correct how does that make it the better tire for TT's??? Bias belted tires: Higher rolling friction, more tire wear and more gas to pull it. Less side wall flex gives it a rougher ride. Radials will do the exact opposite.

Here's another point. Just because a very high percentage of TT's don't have shocks does not make it right. It's just what the TT industry has done and few really complain. Shocks: reduce/dampen suspension movement which reduces the TT's effect on the TV and protects your stuff in the TT. Reduce suspension movement also contributes to less TT sway and they handle better. Besides utility trailers, boat trailers and most TT's there is no other suspension system traveling down our highways that does not have shocks. It's not cost either. I put shocks on my TT for $150. With their buying power it wouldn't cost $50.
I'll never accept that just because everybody does it then it must be the right or best thing to do. I operate on facts. Facts and advantages of shocks and radial tires far outweigh the disadvantages of not having them.

We might as well throw in self-adjusting brakes into the mix. They came out standard in the 50's. Most TT's still don't have them. If you've got Dexters you probably do. Please don't tell me how hard it is to back up your TT just to adjust the brakes. That's one excuse I got from somebody. You don't even think about backing up your truck/car and hitting the brakes just to adjust them. When you back your TT into a spot it will self-adjust. If you use mostly pull throughs some TT's have adjusting brakes that adjust when pulling forward. They are not standard because of saving a few bucks.

TeJay

I never said that bias plies were better than radials. Of course radials are better. Fact is, most trailers come with bias ply because they are cheap, right in line with the rest of the materials they use.

[TeJay]

Dave,
Your response is reasonable. If one does decide to upgrade it's just so you can carry the amount of weight that the unit was designed to carry. I don't believe anybody assumed that then you could carry more than the original design. We know that the manufacturers design the frame, suspension, axles to just barely handle the weight that it was designed to carry. Often times it still fails, bent axles, worn tires etc.

TeJay

[davel1971]

Originally Posted by TeJay

Dave,
Your response is reasonable. If one does decide to upgrade it's just so you can carry the amount of weight that the unit was designed to carry. I don't believe anybody assumed that then you could carry more than the original design. We know that the manufacturers design the frame, suspension, axles to just barely handle the weight that it was designed to carry. Often times it still fails, bent axles, worn tires etc.

TeJay

I think we can all agree that most all of them are build on the edge of self destruction. When a fix to make something good/safe enough to use requires an upgrade, not an easy task to get the manufacturer step up to the plate.

[OldCoot]

IMO, if the OP flips the axles, puts the springs on top of the axles and puts on a set of BALANCED GY Marathons LR D, his problems will be over.

[TeJay]

Dave,
Well said. I was able to get the manufacturer to respond on our last TT. It was 7,000 lb max unit. It came with 2-3,000 lb axles. At 9-AM the dealer called and was flatelly refused upgraded axles. I called at 10-AM the same day not knowing that they had already called. When I spoke to customer service I told them that I was just a consumer but felt that 6,000 lbs axles for a TT rated to carry 7,000 lbs was just a little suspect. He said wait a minute. So I did. Within 30 seconds he came back on and said that they had been discussing this issue that morning and they would ship 2- 3,500 lb axle by the end of the week. I was shocked because the approval came so quickly.

I stopped at the dealer on my way home and when I walked in they treated me like some god. They asked me what I said to them to get them to change their minds. I told them that I asked the guy at customer service why the approval came so quickly. He hesitated for a moment then I said, "Is it because I the consumer realized the issue???" He said YES.

To end the story. We got the axles installed, went on a 1,000 mile trip and on the way home the brand new TT got broadsided by a dump truck in a parking lot. It was totaled. We ordered another one just like it. It also came with 2-3,000 lbs axles even though they said it wouldn't. So they had to re-order the correct axles.

TeJay

[davel1971]

I'm with ya there OldCoot. Question is, who pays for all that. Well out of warranty now, but been an ongoing problem since new.

[cadman99]

All this discussion is a waste of time until the trailer is weighed. If it grossly over-weight the axles will be bowed.

The sway can be mitigated with a simple sway bar between the frame and one spring attach points.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by davel1971

I'm with ya there OldCoot. Question is, who pays for all that. Well out of warranty now, but been an ongoing problem since new.

If it were me, I'd spend the 2 hrs and flip the axles, take before and after pictures, take pictures of the tires and just bite the bullet and get the GY Marathons. Save all the receipts and start bugging the hell out of the dealer and FR. Even make the trip to Goshen to the rally and continue the discussion with real people if necessary. Crying over it with the camper sitting does nothing. As the saying goes, "Do something, even if it's wrong." At least with the camper fixed, it can be used. Now it is just an unusable thing on wheels, serving no purpose. JMO

[jgroff]

if the axles were installed wrong FR should foot the bill for this even if its out of warranty. problem with the tires is grey wolf's come with 14" rims. I upsized my tires to get a little more capacity (had 205/75/14 to 215/75/14). load range d's aren't available for 14" . can you get 15" rims with the same bolt pattern?

I think the op should weigh his trailer. that model grey wolf only has 1001 lbs of ccc best case. I know my grey wolf came 205 lbs heavier then what the specs say on the web. then add propane, batt, TV, maybe slide toppers. not much ccc left. the axles could be overloaded.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by jgroff

if the axles were installed wrong FR should foot the bill for this even if its out of warranty. problem with the tires is grey wolf's come with 14" rims. I upsized my tires to get a little more capacity (had 205/75/14 to 215/75/14). load range d's aren't available for 14" . can you get 15" rims with the same bolt pattern?

I think the op should weigh his trailer. that model grey wolf only has 1001 lbs of ccc best case. I know my grey wolf came 205 lbs heavier then what the specs say on the web. then add propane, batt, TV, maybe slide toppers. not much ccc left. the axles could be overloaded.

Don't disagree, but in the meantime, the trailer sits and is totally useless. I'd flip the axles myself. Not a big job. He has probably spent more time writing about it than it would take to flip them.

[Ford Idaho]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Don't disagree, but in the meantime, the trailer sits and is totally useless. I'd flip the axles myself. Not a big job. He has probably spent more time writing about it than it would take to flip them.

I agree that it is not a big job for those of us mechanically inclined, for others it may be a daunting task best left to the pros.

[mgaines]

Well, unfortunately there isn't much that I can do with it right now since it is at the dealer. I do plan on calling them this week so maybe they will have a method of weighing the thing. As for the orientation of the axles, they were not always bowed down. I guess it is possible that the thing is overloaded but since we never travel with any tank full, I just don't know. We don't have that much in it.

As you say, only real way to know will be to weigh it. I appreciate all the help.

[lil2low]

Originally Posted by Ford Idaho

Look at your axels, are they on top or under the springs?

They are on top of the springs

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by mgaines

We have a 2013 model of this camper, bought new. At about 1500 miles we discovered that all four tires had worn out on the inside tread. We had already noticed that the wheels would angle out or in depending on turning. We took it back to the dealer, who ended up replacing both axles and all four tires under warranty. This was completed in late June of 2013.

Fast forward to now, about 1000 miles later. We find that again all four tires are worn out, in the same way as before. We again notice that the wheels angle in and out while turning, as well as now we have noticed that we have frame damage where the axle u-bolts have hit the frame and bent the I-beam flanges. The tires have rubbed against the the inside of the wheel wells, and the wheels sit cambered out on flat pavement.

Forest River's answer was that we needed radial tires, so has replaced them (note: third set of tires in 1.5 years, second set of axles). No effect on how the wheels sit. My mechanic, and several car nut friends, have all suggested that our axles are insufficient for the weight. The camper weighs 7700 pounds fully loaded (which we haven't done yet) on two 3500 pound axles. We have also noticed that anything larger than a 1/2 ton truck passing us, or a small gust of wind, will make the trailer sway badly. We have to travel at no more than 50-60 mph to be even a little under control. We have an E2 hitch, pretty much the best we could find.

The camper is back in the shop as of today, and since it is out of warranty I expect to not get much help from Forest River. My dealer has been great, but there is only so much they can do.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what we can try?

As long as you have documentation of the problem that should have been taken care of in warranty and they didn't they will have to repair it for free. Just because your warranty is over doesn't mean they can walk away from it.