Axle tag / Trailer sticker

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by Airdale

According to the specifications found at forestriverinc.com for the unit in question the certification label has the correct information. The picture of the axle manufacturers tag (Dexter) shows incorrect information when compared to the trailer‘s certification label. The remedy is to investigate the axle for its correct load capacity. If, in fact, the axle (s) has a maximum load capacity of 4000# forest river must recall the unit and replace the axle (s). The OP has said the Original tires were LRC. The tires described on the certification label do not come in LRC so another tire size must have been used. If that’s the case Forest River is responsible and must also recall the unit for incorrect tire size.

Excerpt from FMVSS 571.110;
The sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fitted to an axle shall not be less than the GAWR of the axle system as specified on the vehicle's certification label required by 49 CFR part 567 (Certification).

I don’t “shoot from the hip”. My posts on subjects with verifiable information come - in part - from those documents.

I'm pretty sure you are absolutely correct. All the info on other 8289WS models I've been able to find advertised that just happen to show the certification label the unit is supposed to have a minimum of 5,000 pound axles. FR appears to have put the wrong axles on, and I doubt they are the correct axle with an incorrect axle weight sticker.

If the trailer came with "C" load tires then the max load for those tires is in the 1,800-1,900 range. Assume they were 1,900 each then the certification label should show an axle weight rating of 3,800 pounds. Even though the pictured axles show 4K, the tire rating limits them to 3,800. Just more reasoning to believe the certification label is correct but the axle is wrong.

The OP needs to really push back to get this issue resolved.

[Tireman9]

Have to wonder, is the unit advertised, in writing as having a 4,000 or 5,000# capacity.
Every trailer I have purchased had a clear statement of it's capacity.

IMO if advertised as 5,000# and they sold you 4,000 trailer it's simple false advertising. Small claims court might be an option if FR isn't willing to bring the unit up to meet it's advertised rating.

If however it is advertised or designated as a 4,000# unit then that is what you bought. FR can use whatever components they want as long as the tires & axle have at least 4k capability.

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

Have to wonder, is the unit advertised, in writing as having a 4,000 or 5,000# capacity.
Every trailer I have purchased had a clear statement of it's capacity.

IMO if advertised as 5,000# and they sold you 4,000 trailer it's simple false advertising. Small claims court might be an option if FR isn't willing to bring the unit up to meet it's advertised rating.

If however it is advertised or designated as a 4,000# unit then that is what you bought. FR can use whatever components they want as long as the tires & axle have at least 4k capability.

It's a little vague and may have factors I'm not familiar with. However, it is advertised as having a maximum weight of 9,824 pounds. The advertised empty weight is 6,832 with a cargo capacity of 1,421. I don't know how they came up with that cargo capacity number because if you subtract 6,832 from the max weight you see a cargo capacity of 2,992. Too many numbers here...gets confusing (which may be intentional on FRs part). Furthermore, the sticker on the picture I referenced in post #19 has a cargo limit of 1,543.

It would be helpful if someone here who owns a comparable unit would take a look at their axle and let us know what the sticker says.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

It's a little vague and may have factors I'm not familiar with. However, it is advertised as having a maximum weight of 9,824 pounds. The advertised empty weight is 6,832 with a cargo capacity of 1,421. I don't know how they came up with that cargo capacity number because if you subtract 6,832 from the max weight you see a cargo capacity of 2,992. Too many numbers here...gets confusing (which may be intentional on FRs part). Furthermore, the sticker on the picture I referenced in post #19 has a cargo limit of 1,543.

It would be helpful if someone here who owns a comparable unit would take a look at their axle and let us know what the sticker says.

Thanks for the facts and numbers.
Now having a better understanding the confusion, I have to admit I no longer feel there is any problem with the "certification" label or the advertising.

Vehicle manufacturers can use whatever components they wish as long as the MINIMUM capacities required by regulation are followed.
Others can state the "chapter and verse" of the regs but the bottom line is that there is no problem with the TT. I was wrong for not understanding the confusion and suggesting there was some reason to notify NHTSA or BBB or even consider going to court.

It appears that the problem is that you do not understand the definition of "cargo capacity" in the RV world. This is a very well defined term and a competent RV dealer should have been able to point to the appropriate documentation.

Here are some links, with the definition of the term. (Google is our friend)
How Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) Works

How Much Stuff Can You Carry?

RV Weight Terms

Hope this information answers all your questions and concerns.

[lbrjet]

According to the FR website dry weight is 8408 for that model. OP dry weight on posted sticker is just over 8200. Not sure where the a different poster got a dry weight of six and change.

Sounds to me like the sticker is correct, but the axles and tires are wrong. (Like I posted earlier)

OP, please let us know what you find out from FR.


2010 F250 5.4L 3.73
2011 Flagstaff 831FKBSS
Equal-i-zer 4pt 12K

[KMP44]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

Thanks for the facts and numbers.
Now having a better understanding the confusion, I have to admit I no longer feel there is any problem with the "certification" label or the advertising.

Vehicle manufacturers can use whatever components they wish as long as the MINIMUM capacities required by regulation are followed.
Others can state the "chapter and verse" of the regs but the bottom line is that there is no problem with the TT. I was wrong for not understanding the confusion and suggesting there was some reason to notify NHTSA or BBB or even consider going to court.

It appears that the problem is that you do not understand the definition of "cargo capacity" in the RV world. This is a very well defined term and a competent RV dealer should have been able to point to the appropriate documentation.

Here are some links, with the definition of the term. (Google is our friend)
How Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) Works

How Much Stuff Can You Carry?

RV Weight Terms

Hope this information answers all your questions and concerns.

What does cargo capacity have to do with the issue? Or even GVWR?

The sticker says each axle can carry 5,000 lbs, and the axles say they are capable of 4,000 lbs. This is an issue in and of itself. A 5,000 pound axle with a 4,000 pound sticker is fine, but not the other way around.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by PhoneDude 8289

Weight on axel tag vs weight on trailer sticker???? Didn't really think about it till I was comparing photos, Confusing to say the least. 2014 8289WS

Attachment 110800

Attachment 110801

Real easy
Go to NHTSA Complaint web page.

Fill in the VIN

The complaint is that the axle is rated only 4,000#

and the tires are rated xxx Lbs at max pressure.

You should receive a "Complaint # from NHTSA in a few days.

Then notify FR and your RV dealer of the complaint #

[northstar1960]

the only way to get things done right in the country is get a good lawyer . plain and simple . any other route will just waste time and get you know where . unless FR and other manufactures agree to correct the axles not the sticker . someday soon there will be a class action suit against RV builders and things will change real quick

[CraigBean7672]

I have the same model but a year newer.
My sticker shows #4000 axles and LRC tires.

[Flybob]

This type of issue ( where your safety is at risk) can get very emotional very quickly. The proper way to handle this is to contact the FR rep ( see contacts in library) and if necessary fill out a NHTSA complaint. Threatening use of legal action at this point will do two things.
1. Immediately result in the cessation of all conversations with FR reps or factory repair personnel ( per instructions from their lawyers). Any hope of a resolution will be on hold until the legal dept OKs it.
2. Result in posts being deleted or the thread being closed as they violate forum rules: http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ork&page=rules

There have been errors in the past involving incorrect weight data on trailer labels and these have been corrected ( a quick search will provide details). This discussion (if kept to the facts) should provide the information needed to quickly resolve the issue.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by Flybob

This type of issue ( where your safety is at risk) can get very emotional very quickly. The proper way to handle this is to contact the FR rep ( see contacts in library) and if necessary fill out a NHTSA complaint. Threatening use of legal action at this point will do two things.
1. Immediately result in the cessation of all conversations with FR reps or factory repair personnel ( per instructions from their lawyers). Any hope of a resolution will be on hold until the legal dept OKs it.
2. Result in posts being deleted or the thread being closed as they violate forum rules: http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ork&page=rules

There have been errors in the past involving incorrect weight data on trailer labels and these have been corrected ( a quick search will provide details). This discussion (if kept to the facts) should provide the information needed to quickly resolve the issue.

"If necessary" Absolutely as we will never get the quality we want untill the RV companies clean up their act. Filing a complaint on every screw-up is what is needed.


RE what FR may do. Don't know how changing the cert label to show GAWR of 4,000 solves the problem of delivering a vehicle with the stated capacities. Those capacities are part of the buying decision and the cert label math has to work to deliver the stated and advertised capacities.
Did anyone ever receive advertisement on this RV through the mail? Only need one person to then claim mail fraud.
Advertising one capacity but later changing it, simply has not worked when other irregularities were discovered in other vehicles.

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by Flybob

This type of issue ( where your safety is at risk) can get very emotional very quickly. The proper way to handle this is to contact the FR rep ( see contacts in library) and if necessary fill out a NHTSA complaint. Threatening use of legal action at this point will do two things.
1. Immediately result in the cessation of all conversations with FR reps or factory repair personnel ( per instructions from their lawyers). Any hope of a resolution will be on hold until the legal dept OKs it.
2. Result in posts being deleted or the thread being closed as they violate forum rules: http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ork&page=rules

There have been errors in the past involving incorrect weight data on trailer labels and these have been corrected ( a quick search will provide details). This discussion (if kept to the facts) should provide the information needed to quickly resolve the issue.

Your comments are understood. But please review the posts and advise of of where the problem is with information not be factual.

Based on the comment in post #29 the posters unit has a label showing 4,000 pounds and C-rated tires. The OP sticker shows 5,000 pound axle and D-rated tires, but he stated in Post #7 that his unit came with C-load tires. Now, although I've never seen one, there could be a C-load tire with a load capacity of 2,000 pounds. That is the minimum required spec for an axle with 4,000 pound capacity. If the trailer is equipped with C-load tires then the maximum axle capacity on the certification label cannot state more than 3,600-3,800 pounds. Even if the axle was labeled at 6,000, 7,000 pounds or more the TT certification label is limited to the tire load.

We know for a fact that the OP label says 5,000 pounds. Another label I found at a dealer shows 5,000 pounds. And yet a third label (on a model year between the other two) shows 4,000 pounds. The real fact we see here is there is inaccurate information being put out by FR. And, that information could lead to a failure resulting in personal injury, or more. I'm sure that FR did not set out with malice aforethought to mislabel the trailer or put substandard axles on them, but the fact is obvious this is what happened.

I'm sure that once FR becomes aware of the problem they will correct it. In the meantime there are folks who could pull up on a Cat scale, see a weight of 4,500 pounds on their axle and drive away happy thinking they are within limits...until something happens.

Mentioning closing the thread because info given is not in compliance with the facts (not true, it's all accurate info) is doing a disservice to the people who have these trailers and need this information. From what I've seen if closing a thread because of a few incorrect facts then we would probably have a few thousand less threads. I just don't see this thread rising to that level.

[lbrjet]

Tireman, slamming the RV companies (on this and other threads) is going to get you no where except in trouble. Please take it down a notch or two.


2010 F250 5.4L 3.73
2011 Flagstaff 831FKBSS
Equal-i-zer 4pt 12K

[Airdale]

The problem is twofold. The OP has shown us pictures of his trailer’s certification label. It is filled out properly in accordance with the certification regulation. The OP has also shown us a picture of the Dexter axle tag on the axle. It states 4000# capacity -- Ring, Ring? Problem! Not enough load capacity to support the 5000# GAWR requirement certified by the vehicle manufacturer. The OP has also indicated the trailer was delivered to him with LRC tires. There are no ST 15” LRC tires capable of providing the necessary load capacity for 5000# GAWR axles.

FMVSS 571.110 clearly states that the total certified GAWR added to the manufacturer’s hitch weight MUST equal or exceed GVWR. What is in-between is available for CARGO. A trailer leaves the factory with a GVW. The dealer may install options that he will have to deduct from the cargo tag if they are applicable. If the dealer does change the cargo capacity it requires a change in the cargo tag before first sale.

In concurring with the OPs findings the trailer has two serious safety violations. The installed axles are 2000# - total - below minimum requirements and the LRC tires were improperly fitted to a trailer clearly showing ST225/75R15D as the minimum standard on the OPs certification label.

IMO the correct GAWRs for the OPs trailer would be 4400# ea.. Still, the current axles will not work and have to be changed. Watch for a Forest River Certification and tire recall. IF THE OP WILL ACT.

p.s. Certification is not taken lightly by the governing bodies. There are very severe monitory penalties for safety violations requiring recalls as this one surely does.

[CraigBean7672]

I'd like to know if FR decided to downgrade to a lighter axle/wheel/tire setup in 2015 so I hope you reply back PhoneDude if you contact FR. Unfortunately, on my rig I believe my left front wheel is overweight @2350lbs when I had each tire weighed at a recent rally. Some say the scales and methodology of the individual scales can be inaccurate and I don't argue that. I still need to back it with a weight slip from a CAT scale.

If yours has the Fridge and oven on the left side like mine you will want to do some weighing...

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by lbrjet

Tireman, slamming the RV companies (on this and other threads) is going to get you no where except in trouble. Please take it down a notch or two.


2010 F250 5.4L 3.73
2011 Flagstaff 831FKBSS
Equal-i-zer 4pt 12K

Not sure how stating that RV companies need to take the quality of the vehicles they build more seriously is slamming.
Real quality is the result of having a culture where quality is a top priority from the CEO on down. There are simply too many posts that identify too many examples of a lack of real commitment on the part of too many companies.

Have to wonder if anyone that has visited an RV assembly shop has ever watched the 'Final Inspection" process. I would think that it would take maybe 30 minutes to an hour just to confirm that everything that should have been done and that was supposedly checked during assemble was actually done properly.

Reading the posts of those that pick-up a new RV and even paid a $500 "prep fee" only to quickly discover a multi page list of items that need fixing after the purchase, as seen in the latest issue of Motorhome magazine. Most of these RVs should never have left the assembly location, never mind need to be checked by the dealer with the customer being expected to pay for prep then delivery back to the dealer or worse yet having to take the time, days? and $$$ needed to deliver the RV back to the assembly location so the poor original assembly can be fixed.

[clutchd]

Does the title of you trailer show any weights. All mine in Ohio show empty trailer weight and then gvwr.

A title is a legal piece of paper provided by the state. Something to check into. If title and info tag on trailer match, it will have to be fixed by new axles.

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

Thanks for the facts and numbers.
Now having a better understanding the confusion, I have to admit I no longer feel there is any problem with the "certification" label or the advertising.

Vehicle manufacturers can use whatever components they wish as long as the MINIMUM capacities required by regulation are followed.
Others can state the "chapter and verse" of the regs but the bottom line is that there is no problem with the TT. I was wrong for not understanding the confusion and suggesting there was some reason to notify NHTSA or BBB or even consider going to court.

It appears that the problem is that you do not understand the definition of "cargo capacity" in the RV world. This is a very well defined term and a competent RV dealer should have been able to point to the appropriate documentation.

Here are some links, with the definition of the term. (Google is our friend)
How Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) Works

How Much Stuff Can You Carry?

RV Weight Terms

Hope this information answers all your questions and concerns.

I reviewed the info in the three links you provided and have a single comment: They were written with the intention of generating words to justify the, uhh, well to justify something. Sorta like the college professor who comes up with a subject that needs study, but the only reason it needs study is to generate income for the professor in the form of some kind of grant, etc.

Those articles take an extremely simple calculation that a fourth grader can understand and turn it into so much gobbledegook that a "rocket scientist" will be confused.

One has a known starting weight and a known maximum weight. That's all you need to know. The difference between these two numbers is whatever you want to call it. You can call it cargo capacity, payload, useful load, or even widgets, but it all boils down to TWO numbers...only two, no more. What causes confusion is the fact that both of these numbers can change, sometimes on a day to day basis.

How does all this relate to this thread? If the TT has 4,000 pound axles (total of 8,000) and the CAT scale says there is 7,000 pounds weight on them, then the maximum load you can add to the trailer is 1,000 pounds. Pretty clear, huh? Well, if you think you have 5,000 pound axles then you'll believe you can add 2,874 pounds of "cargo" or whatever you want to call it because that weight will put you at the published max gross weight of 9,874 pounds. But, you are now 1,600 pounds overweight.

Will the OP ever attain those numbers? I don't have a clue...and until he goes to a CAT scale neither does the OP. It looks to me like FR is really cutting it close by installing 4,000 pound axles, but as long as they are meeting the minimum requirements and the buyer is willing to accept that then I guess all is OK. However, if the owner doesn't look at the axle label and goes by an incorrect number on the cert label then all is NOT OK.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

I reviewed the info in the three links you provided and have a single comment: They were written with the intention of generating words to justify the, uhh, well to justify something. Sorta like the college professor who comes up with a subject that needs study, but the only reason it needs study is to generate income for the professor in the form of some kind of grant, etc.

Those articles take an extremely simple calculation that a fourth grader can understand and turn it into so much gobbledegook that a "rocket scientist" will be confused.

One has a known starting weight and a known maximum weight. That's all you need to know. The difference between these two numbers is whatever you want to call it. You can call it cargo capacity, payload, useful load, or even widgets, but it all boils down to TWO numbers...only two, no more. What causes confusion is the fact that both of these numbers can change, sometimes on a day to day basis.

How does all this relate to this thread? If the TT has 4,000 pound axles (total of 8,000) and the CAT scale says there is 7,000 pounds weight on them, then the maximum load you can add to the trailer is 1,000 pounds. Pretty clear, huh? Well, if you think you have 5,000 pound axles then you'll believe you can add 2,874 pounds of "cargo" or whatever you want to call it because that weight will put you at the published max gross weight of 9,874 pounds. But, you are now 1,600 pounds overweight.

Will the OP ever attain those numbers? I don't have a clue...and until he goes to a CAT scale neither does the OP. It looks to me like FR is really cutting it close by installing 4,000 pound axles, but as long as they are meeting the minimum requirements and the buyer is willing to accept that then I guess all is OK. However, if the owner doesn't look at the axle label and goes by an incorrect number on the cert label then all is NOT OK.

The OP does not need to go to the scales. Forest river is clearly in violation of two safety regulations and must take action once informed of the situation.

I have repeatedly posted the regulations they are in violation of. You have not read them or don't understand them. Everything that is a need to know is in FMVSS 571.110 and other references refereed to in that document. All of the FMVSS that are applicable to a RV trailer manufacturer are binding and enforceable.

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by Airdale

The OP does not need to go to the scales. Forest river is clearly in violation of two safety regulations and must take action once informed of the situation.

I have repeatedly posted the regulations they are in violation of. You have not read them or don't understand them. Everything that is a need to know is in FMVSS 571.110 and other references refereed to in that document. All of the FMVSS that are applicable to a RV trailer manufacturer are binding and enforceable.

Yes, I've read them and understand. What I was saying is the OP doesn't have the correct axles so it's better to find the exact weight resting on the existing axles to determine if it's safe to tow for the short time, at least enough to get it in for replacement if needed.