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Old 02-22-2019, 01:00 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by LI Guy View Post
would that not be rated in towing capacity (when braking comes into the equation) ,not payload capacity?
67L48 want's to know why and how we have these ratings....not just because.

It's been cited in this thread that for safety reasons these ratings are in place.

Vehicles are engineered to ensure safe operation for the life of the vehicle....if they're used within their ratings. Going above and beyond their rating (GVWR, GAWR, GCWR, Etc.) can strain components and systems of the vehicle and cause premature failure.

Another example: (Take vehicles and their ratings out of the equation.)

Why do we have breakers in our home electrical systems?

A typical home circuit is 15 amps and has a breaker to trip when 15 amps is exceeded.

If you plug in an appliance requiring 17 amps and the breaker trips, why not just replace the 15 amp breaker with a 20 amp breaker? It can be done...but it shouldn't be done.

Would the 17 amp appliance work with the 20 amp breaker? Yes, for a limited time. The breaker, being the weakest link in the system (and thankfully its there), protects the wiring from overheating, catching fire and burning your home down. Will it run for a short time? Yes. Will it run for long? Again, there's a chance of overheating the wiring and causing more damage.

My thought process is that the vehicle engineers put a GVWR in place to keep the vehicle working well within it's tolerances. The GVWR is the "15 amp breaker" that keeps the end user from finding the vehicle's limits.

It really comes down to safety. That's the "Why"
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Old 02-22-2019, 01:36 PM   #42
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clarkbre, that's a decent analogy.

Automotive engineers design trucks (and all vehicles) for certain parameters, plus a safety factor. If you exceed a vehicle's rating you are eating into the safety factor that the engineers design into it. Typically, towable RV owners will exceed the GVWR of their tow vehicle first, then its RAWR and GCWR.

Lots of people on camper and truck forums debate the difference between a 3/4 ton and a 1 ton. Some suggest there is practically no difference and that the 3/4 ton is just derated on the sticker for license classification. I've determined that the 2016 F-350 SRW has a rear different axle than my 2016 F-250, so it's more than just paper or an easily-upgraded suspension component.

I don't think many people would suggest a 1/2 ton compares to a 3/4 ton, with the exception of the F-150 that has the heavy duty payload option.
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:35 PM   #43
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clarkbre, that's a decent analogy.

Automotive engineers design trucks (and all vehicles) for certain parameters, plus a safety factor. If you exceed a vehicle's rating you are eating into the safety factor that the engineers design into it. Typically, towable RV owners will exceed the GVWR of their tow vehicle first, then its RAWR and GCWR.......
Thanks. I am a safety director by trade and work in the construction industry. I see lots of accidents and injuries come from improper use and pushing things to the limits of our tools and abilities. Everyone says "it won't happen to me"....until it does.

It's tough to explain exactly why those ratings are what they are other than "it's for safety". The other extreme questions one could ask are "Why weren't there enough life boats on the Titanic? What kind of idiot made that decision and killed all those people?"

Our ratings, rules, laws, etc. were written in blood....people died! I'm not one for heavy regulations by the government, however, when it comes to safety standards, they are there to preserve our society's lack of common sense.

Off my soap box!

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Originally Posted by itat View Post
..........Lots of people on camper and truck forums debate the difference between a 3/4 ton and a 1 ton. Some suggest there is practically no difference and that the 3/4 ton is just derated on the sticker for license classification. I've determined that the 2016 F-350 SRW has a rear different axle than my 2016 F-250, so it's more than just paper or an easily-upgraded suspension component.

I don't think many people would suggest a 1/2 ton compares to a 3/4 ton, with the exception of the F-150 that has the heavy duty payload option.
That debate is interesting and will never end.

Having had both an F150 and F250, they are totally different trucks and handle the same 7500 lbs trailer completely differently.

The debate between 3/4 and 1 ton trucks seems to be even grayer. While both can be outfitted with gas and diesel engines, I think the lack of payload on the 3/4 ton diesel makes it a very obsolete truck. Per the manufacturer's ratings, you can tow an entire county to another state; however, its not rated to handle much of a hitch or pin weight. For handling weight (within the GVWR) a gas version is the right choice; however, those generally have lesser tow ratings than a diesel.

In the end, if you're going diesel, get a 1 ton. It really does make better sense in being able to tow a heavy load AND handle the hitch or pin weight of the trailer.
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:46 PM   #44
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I don't see anyone quoting the load capacity of the different tires.
Also don't forget that the load capacity of "P" type tires in P/U application gets de-rated Load/1.1
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:50 PM   #45
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I don't see anyone quoting the load capacity of the different tires.
Also don't forget that the load capacity of "P" type tires in P/U application gets de-rated Load/1.1
What ratings are you looking for?

Are P rated tires bad...or is that the perception?
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Old 02-22-2019, 07:05 PM   #46
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What ratings are you looking for?

Are P rated tires bad...or is that the perception?

No it is based on the engineering calculations on load capacity and part of the equasioninvolves intended use.


Trucks are intended to carry load a lot of the time while cars almost never are loaded to GAWR.


If you look at the load/inflation tables for LT vs P typeyou will see that identical size tires have different ratings. The difference is much small with the 1.1 de-rating.


I covered this in my RV tire blog



Load capacity is basically air volume x tire pressure with "K" factors for intended service and speed ratings.
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Old 02-22-2019, 07:22 PM   #47
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No it is based on the engineering calculations on load capacity and part of the equasioninvolves intended use.


Trucks are intended to carry load a lot of the time while cars almost never are loaded to GAWR.


If you look at the load/inflation tables for LT vs P typeyou will see that identical size tires have different ratings. The difference is much small with the 1.1 de-rating.


I covered this in my RV tire blog



Load capacity is basically air volume x tire pressure with "K" factors for intended service and speed ratings.
This is very interesting. Your blog will be my reading material for the weekend!

So, just for my clarification about tires, take my old '11 F150 for example.

It came stock with P rated tires. The front GAWR was 3750 and the rear GAWR was 3850 with a truck GVWR of 7200.

I ran Toyo AT2 tire that were P rated. According to the CHART for 265/70/17 the load rating for P was 2535 and the LT tires were 3195. Given the 1.1 reduction the 2535 were really rated for 2304?

If that's correct, the two tires on the rear axle would have a total load rating of 4608?

So, on that specific truck, the P rated tires were still sufficient.

I can completely understand on 3/4 and 1 ton trucks why you would need a LT tire to be able to carry the GVWR rating of 10,000.

Learning more everyday.
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:32 AM   #48
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I've always used LT265/75/16 tires on my Chevrolet 2500, even though the factory size is 245/75/16. I chose the larger tire size to increase load capacity of the tires... I like the extra "cushion". I seem to over-build most things I own.



I've always stayed with LT tires rather than P rated tires because of the stronger belts, stiffer sidewalls and the fact that I read someplace that the LT tires are designed to run at or near max load for longer periods of time than a "P" or passenger tire. I tow a camper and I want all the safety cushion I can get.


I have had the best luck with the Michelin Defender line. Just put a new set on this month.
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:32 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by clarkbre View Post
This is very interesting. Your blog will be my reading material for the weekend!

So, just for my clarification about tires, take my old '11 F150 for example.

It came stock with P rated tires. The front GAWR was 3750 and the rear GAWR was 3850 with a truck GVWR of 7200.

I ran Toyo AT2 tire that were P rated. According to the CHART for 265/70/17 the load rating for P was 2535 and the LT tires were 3195. Given the 1.1 reduction the 2535 were really rated for 2304?

If that's correct, the two tires on the rear axle would have a total load rating of 4608?

So, on that specific truck, the P rated tires were still sufficient.

I can completely understand on 3/4 and 1 ton trucks why you would need a LT tire to be able to carry the GVWR rating of 10,000.

Learning more everyday.
Love my Michelins.
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:05 PM   #50
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Love my Michelins.
Congrats! My Michelins come off tomorrow.

Michelins' definition of an all terrain tire and mine are totally different. Recent snow proved that they were not impressive. I'm going to try a set of Goodyear Wrangler AT's that are take-offs from a 2018 F350. I'm mainly doing it for the wheels. Once the Goodyears are done, I will try a set of Falken Wildpeak AT3W's. They review great and are an awesome price.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:08 AM   #51
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You are missing the boat on the all terrain definition. It is a tire that performs good at various conditions but not great at any condition. If you want great performance in a certain condition that requires separate tires. So it isn’t Mchelin’s definition but rather your understanding. I have used Michelin defenders and it’s predecessor for many years and it does better than most in light winter conditions. But when the conditions get worse I put on my winter wheels and tires. Do some research and you will find Falkens are a low grade tire and wear accordingly. Michelin sets the standard that the other companies try to achieve, I started using them in the mid sixties when Goodyear and other U.S. companies refused to make radials.
I also noted your post about load rating and construction. Having owned a construction company I always found it interesting that floor ratings are 40 pounds per square foot for most building codes yet a persons foot is less than square foot and can exert over 200 pounds in each step everyday. The reason is, it is a rating not a capacity.”P” rated tires can hold the weight for 1/2 ton trucks but feel spongy just like a floor constructed to a 40 lb. per square foot rating. I don’t build my floors to the minimum rating nor do I run tires with a minimum rating. You will also find that certain brands of trucks in the same year have exactly the same brakes, axles and other drive train components with both 3/4 and 1 ton trucks but are rated different, because it is a rating not a capacity. One must do all the research and have field experience to make their own decisions. Reading reviews is nice but one must read between the lines and analyze reviews caerfully and realize that often times reviews are written by people without true knowledge and before thorough testing. A tire review is best written at the end of the tire’s life not at the beginning.
Congrats.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:26 AM   #52
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You are missing the boat on the all terrain definition. It is a tire that performs good at various conditions but not great at any condition If you want great performance in a certain condition, that requires separate tires so it isn’t Michelin’s definition but rather your understanding.

I have used Michelin defenders and it’s predecessor for many years and it does better than most in light winter conditions. But when the conditions get worse, I put on my winter wheels and tires.

Do some research and you will find Falkens are a low grade tire and wear accordingly. Michelin sets the standard that the other companies try to achieve. I started using them in the mid sixties when Goodyear and other U.S. companies refused to make radials.

I also noted your post about load rating and construction. Having owned a construction company, I always found it interesting that floor ratings are 40 pounds per square foot for most building codes, yet a persons foot is less than square foot and can exert over 200 pounds in each step everyday. The reason is, it is a rating, not a capacity.”P” rated tires can hold the weight for 1/2 ton trucks but feel spongy just like a floor constructed to a 40 lb. per square foot rating.

I don’t build my floors to the minimum rating nor do I run tires with a minimum rating. You will also find that certain brands of trucks in the same year have exactly the same brakes, axles and other drive train components with both 3/4 and 1 ton trucks but are rated different, because it is a rating not a capacity.

One must do all the research and have field experience to make their own decisions. Reading reviews is nice but one must read between the lines and analyze reviews carefully and realize that often times reviews are written by people without true knowledge and before thorough testing.

A tire review is best written at the end of the tire’s life not at the beginning.
Congrats.
There is so much good information in this post I had to re-post it for everyone to read again.
(note: I did clean up the format a bit to make it read easier)
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:44 AM   #53
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Thanks for that, my mind goes faster than my fingers, and I have so little time to write these but after reading so many posts I become compelled. I hope my many years of experience is helpful to others.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:44 AM   #54
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My current tires are Michelin and the next ones will also be Michelins. There is no way in hell I would put a Falken tire on anything I own.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:55 AM   #55
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My current tires are Michelin and the next ones will also be Michelins. There is no way in hell I would put a Falken tire on anything I own.
I just installed a set of Michelin's on my fairly new Ram 2500. Had the junk Firestone AT on the truck. I had Michelin on last Chevy 2500 and it came from the factory with them. Was my first experience with the Michelin tire as all my other trucks came with Good Year. I was impressed with the ride and handling and wear of the Michelin's. This what I use to make my decision to buy the Michelin's for my Ram. I think I made a very good choice. Later RJD
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