Issues with brakes – At my wits end

[Jeffjeeptj]

Tom,
What part or Virginia are you in. I am in Virginia Beach. Close enough for some help?

[tom39]

Originally Posted by Jeffjeeptj

When i posted about hooking up battery direct to each magnet wire, i forgot to include jacking up each wheel to be free of ground and seeing if arm power could rotate the assembly with full voltage applied. If rotatable, problem is with brake assembly/magnet. Iflocked, then wiring between truck connector and trailer brake assy.
First post written with 3 y.o. Grandson walking in door to visit the Grands. I got mauled first.

Thank you for following up. When I was making the check with the battery, I had all 4 wheels suspended on jack stands with the tires still attached. One note was that there was not a difference between a connection right at the wheels vs at the RV head.
Additionally, even with 12vdc directly connected pulling 3A at each wheel, the wheel could still be turned my hand.

Again thank you for following up.
Tom

[tom39]

Originally Posted by Jeffjeeptj

Tom,
What part or Virginia are you in. I am in Virginia Beach. Close enough for some help?

That is so nice of you to offer that. Thank you very much! Unfortunately thought I am 2.5-3hrs from you. I am in Spotsylvania, about 5 miles east of exit 126 off of I95.

Ironically, when my issue started a few weeks ago, my wife and I had a planned trip to the VA Beach KOA but had to cancel because of this issue.

Since then we rescheduled and our plan is to make the trip next weekend. I am still hopeful and trying to stay positive but this issue is really making that hard.

Thank you again,
Tom

[tom39]

Well I am off to try and burnish the brakes a bit.

Wish me luck!

SERIOUSLY.....Wish me luck if you would.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by tom39

Additionally, even with 12vdc directly connected pulling 3A at each wheel, the wheel could still be turned my hand.

Sounds like the magnets may not be actually creating enough magnetic force to grip the brake drum.

Try the test with a drum off and see if the magnet will grip a piece of steel with any force.

At 3 amp you'd think it would but at my age I've learned to never take anything for granted.

What's puzzling is that from what I read this is happening on all wheels, right? I find it strange that the problem would affect all wheels as it's doubtful that all magnet surfaces are worn the same.

[tom39]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Sounds like the magnets may not be actually creating enough magnetic force to grip the brake drum.

Try the test with a drum off and see if the magnet will grip a piece of steel with any force.

At 3 amp you'd think it would but at my age I've learned to never take anything for granted.

What's puzzling is that from what I read this is happening on all wheels, right? I find it strange that the problem would affect all wheels as it's doubtful that all magnet surfaces are worn the same.

TitanMike, this morning when I had the cutaway drum on looking at the internals, we actually tested the grip of the magnet (all the magnets are new) by trying the pry it from the drum face. It was holding quite tightly but it would come free with some effort. But then again, the cutaway drum has that rippled surface where the magnet lied so the force to hold wasn't as much as it probably is on the new drum with the machined surface.

Thank you
Tom

[Jeffjeeptj]

Originally Posted by tom39

Thank you for following up. When I was making the check with the battery, I had all 4 wheels suspended on jack stands with the tires still attached. One note was that there was not a difference between a connection right at the wheels vs at the RV head.
Additionally, even with 12vdc directly connected pulling 3A at each wheel, the wheel could still be turned my hand.

Again thank you for following up.
Tom

If you can rotate the wheels with full battery voltage applied, the issue is in the brake mechanism. Burnishing is not enough.
Prior post said you had tightened then backed off 10 clicks (IIRC). Try tightening 3 cliks.
BUT, i’ll bet the linkage that actuates the cam is backwards, sides marked wrong, magnet arm is incorrect, magnet s retention spring installed wrong. Also, do you have the “self adjusting” mechanism version of the brakes?
These are 10” x 2-1/4”?, just for info?

E-trailer has a nice video on youtube that shows dexter brakes. https://youtu.be/XBAVtQh5N_k
Bear in mind, this is a video on the left/drivers side and is the forward axle

[Jeffjeeptj]

Also, are the bearings and seal fitting on the axle shaft properly.

Very seal is flush with inner drum hub and id will,slide onto the seal area of the axle. Are the bearing races fully seated into the drum, and the inner cone fits into the cup and onto the axle shaft. Remember, the inner bearing has to push against the face surface where the shaft transitions from bearing inner diameter to seal diameter.

Not sure who made the axles on your trailer, but, diameter verification is the key to success.

There is also,a good reason the instructions call for torquing the bearing nut to,a specified amount. This is intended to assure the out races (cups) are seated.

Since all 4 are acting the same, it would seem to be a common issue.
The above issues would keep the drum positioned further out than it should be, with subsequent bearings not sufficiently close to actuate the lever that rotates the cam that moves the shoues out.

[Bob Maager]

Originally Posted by tom39

For starters, here is the information on my 5th wheel.
Rockwood Signature Ultralite 8288ws.

The axles are an AL-KO U-40. (see 1st pic)

The beginning of this season I noticed that a higher setting on my controller was needed to have sufficient brakes applied when stopping. Then, on the last trip out on the way home, the setting on the controller needed to be maxed out to 10 to have any brake applied at all. Fortunately, the loss of the brakes did not happen until I was about 5-7miles from home.

Trying to figure out what was going on, I first pulled the breakaway switch to see if the issue was my truck or trailer. With the switch applied no change to the issue occurred and the trailer still had no brakes.

Second, I checked all of the connections at the truck (2011 Ram 3500 6.7L 4x4) and even hooked my truck to my 14k# dump trailer to confirm that the controller in the truck was working properly. For this test, I also loaded a 7500# tractor in the tractor trailer so that it would require a bit more braking force to stop the trailer. This test confirmed that the truck was not the issue.
My third test was that I ohmed out the wires on the RV front to back. This test did not show that anything was wrong.

Fourth step was that I pulled one of the hubs and inspected the brakes. Still, I found nothing wrong. But in an effort to try and eliminate possibilities, I cleaned all 4 sets of the brake components, reinstalled the hubs and gave it a try. NOTHING!

Fifth step was that I bought all new brake assemblies. The brake assembly original to the trailer were ALKO 10x2-1/4 (see pic of old backing plate – Pic 2). Not able to find ALKO assemblies, my research indicated that Dexter 3.5k axle parts were compatible and so I ordered Dexter assemblies PN# Qty 2 Right Hand K23-027-00 and Qty 2 Left Hand K23-026-00

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Unfortunately, after installation of these parts, I still had no brakes except for the slightest drag when the controller was set to max. I even tried to pull the break away cable and still had the same result.

Sixth step was that I purchased all new hubs, bearing and seals and installed. Still the same result.

https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hub...hoCa4wQAvD_BwE

Seventh step was that I needed to eliminate all wiring from the equation.
•I replaced all the wires daisy chaining the brake assemblies which made new connections at the wheels.
•Pulled new wire from the head of the 5th wheel to the brake assemblies. The wire used originally was a 16awg and I replaced the wire with 14awg in an effort to increase the capacity of the wire.
•Replaced the pigtail whip with the 7-way plug.
•Replaced the breakaway switch.
•Resecured and cleaned ground connection to trailer frame.

As a result of the replacement of all the wiring, there does not exist a connection that is original and all have been confirmed to be tight and secure.

Even with all that I have done, I still do not have brakes. I will admit that the brakes are a bit better than when I started but nowhere near where they should be and could never brake the trailer enough to amount to anything.
In closing, if anyone has any ideas of why I am having the issue I am having or sees that any of the parts that I used were incorrect or incompatible and may be the cause of the issue, PLEASE HELP!

Thank you in advance,
Tom

check for a bad ground. A
poor ground will drive you crazy. Good luck

Bob

[tom39]

Well it seems that I have had some success with burnishing the brakes and also the rewiring of the entire brake system. Here is what I did to burnish the brakes and get them to seat.

After adjusting the brakes to where I backed off 10 clicks, I did a 4-5 mile run at speeds of 40-50 mph. During the run I manually applied the brakes using the controller for a 10 seconds interval and then waited 2 minutes before applying the brakes again for another 10 seconds.

When I returned to the house, I waited until the drum temps dropped below 150* and ran through the procedure of adjusting the brakes again. This time I tightened each brake and then backed off 6 clicks.
I then did the same 4-5 mile run and same as the last run I manually applied the brakes using the controller for a 10 seconds interval and then waited 2 minutes before applying the brakes again for another 10 seconds.

By the time I reached less than the half way point of the second run the brakes were clearly showing signs of improvement. By the end of the run the brakes were holding the vehicle from moving if I let off the truck brakes and held the trailer brakes on manually.

lastly, once the brakes cooled down, I readjusted the brakes but this time I adjusted them to just the slightest of drag + 1 click. As a test to confirm improvement, I pulled the breakaway switch pin and then pulled on the trailer with the truck. The brakes now appear to be holding as they should.

Tomorrow I will make another run and see how it does. But from what I have seen in the last test, the brakes seem to have settled in and apparently is what was needed the entire time, that the brakes and magnets needed to seat themselves.

After the run tomorrow l will post the outcome.

Thank you all
Tom

[tom39]

Originally Posted by Jeffjeeptj

Also, are the bearings and seal fitting on the axle shaft properly.

Very seal is flush with inner drum hub and id will,slide onto the seal area of the axle. Are the bearing races fully seated into the drum, and the inner cone fits into the cup and onto the axle shaft. Remember, the inner bearing has to push against the face surface where the shaft transitions from bearing inner diameter to seal diameter.

Not sure who made the axles on your trailer, but, diameter verification is the key to success.

There is also,a good reason the instructions call for torquing the bearing nut to,a specified amount. This is intended to assure the out races (cups) are seated.

Since all 4 are acting the same, it would seem to be a common issue.
The above issues would keep the drum positioned further out than it should be, with subsequent bearings not sufficiently close to actuate the lever that rotates the cam that moves the shoues out.

I had considered these things too and was the reason I had made the cutaway drum to visually see that everything was seated as it should be. Since the cutaway drum is the same as the new drum. I took measurements and when I installed the new drum I confirmed that those measurements were the same as the cutaway.

The drums are made by ALKO and they are U40 axles. The brake hardware is for 3500# axles, the drums are 10" and the shoes are 10"x 2.25".

I too am a firm believer that there are torque specs for reason. The instructions the accompanied the Dexter drums stated to 1. torque the nut to 50 ft/lb while rotating the drum. Then you would 2. back off the nut without allowing the drum to move. Then 3. finger tighten the nut and install the retaining cotter pin into the hole of the spindle. This is the procedures that I have used.

Thank you
Tom

[tom39]

Originally Posted by Bob Maager

check for a bad ground. A
poor ground will drive you crazy. Good luck

Bob

When I did the rewire, I actually drilled and tapped the steel frame at the head of the 5th wheel to accept a 1/4-20 bolt. I then used that hole to bolt a ground lug to the trailer frame to which I attached my ground cable to.

Thank you
Tom

[babock]

Also, you would never draw 3A on each wheel with a bad ground

Originally Posted by tom39

When I did the rewire, I actually drilled and tapped the steel frame at the head of the 5th wheel to accept a 1/4-20 bolt. I then used that hole to bolt a ground lug to the trailer frame to which I attached my ground cable to.

Thank you
Tom

[tom39]

I don't have an update on the brakes as the wife wanted to do other things than work or talk about how my brakes were. I was however able to complete a mod that I thought I would share.

Up in the head of the trailer where the pinbox mounts is where all of the connections are made for the 7-way whip and breakaway switch. The connection box is a common electrical 4x4 metal box with a metal lid that is secured by 2 screws. The issue that I was having was that besides it being up inside the cavity, it was also mounted vertical causing it to be very difficult to see inside the box.

In an effort to gain a better visual, I modded it.

I removed one side of the box which allowed me to see into the box from one side and top. And then to be able to seal the box back up. I welded the side I removed from the box to the lid.

It doesn't seem like it would be a big deal but this certainly made things a lot easier when making connection. (I added pics for a bit of a visual)

Thanks for looking,
Tom

[tom39]

Well I think that I am finally finished with my brake job. I took it out this afternoon for a run and it went very well. Prior to leaving I tested the hand brake which was set at 6 of 10 and it held tight in the driveway on asphalt.
I then took it down the road and the braking was very good.
So I decided to go get a state inspection. I relayed to the technician what I had done and he confirmed that burnishing the brakes was what was needed.
Thank you all for all the help you provided.

Sincerely
Tom

[babock]

Awesome!

First thing I do after any brake job is burnish the brakes. This includes the disc brakes on my mountain bike.

It's also why it's important to always start with a machined surface as well. I never just replace pads or shoes unless I have a new rotor/drum or have the old ones resurfaced.

[mgas]

I did not read all 5 pages of replies, so maybe someone already suggested this but check the trailer plug connection at the truck and make sure it is clean and no corrosion.

[tom39]

Originally Posted by mgas

I did not read all 5 pages of replies, so maybe someone already suggested this but check the trailer plug connection at the truck and make sure it is clean and no corrosion.

Thanks for the response. I actually don't think I relayed that I cleaned the truck connection but when the brakes failed and I started the process I had cleaned and confirmed connectivity of the truck socket and pins and the trailer plug.
Thanks again for the reply.

Tom

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by tom39

Thanks for the response. I actually don't think I relayed that I cleaned the truck connection but when the brakes failed and I started the process I had cleaned and confirmed connectivity of the truck socket and pins and the trailer plug.
Thanks again for the reply.

Tom

For those that are interested, they make a set of tools to clean the contacts on truck and trailer connectors. I bought a set specifically for the flat/spade lugs and cleaned 15 years of accumulated "stuff" off both connectors.

As for the wiring box, I replaced the residential 4-square box with a connection box specifically made for the 7-wire trailer cables. Makes a really nice, water resistant, finish to the connection between tow vehicle and trailer




Inside are 7 machine screw studs with separators between them. I terminated each wire from the TV cord and from the various wires feeding from the trailer, with ring connectors and then fastened each to it's appropriate stud.

If I ever need to do any diagnostic work I just pull the two screws and all 7 wires are right there in a row.

That tangle on the right consists of wires running to slide, awning, and tongue jack. I just haven't gotten around to shortening them so they don't sit there in a wad. Some of them just pass through this box from end to end, not making connection inside. Had the room and it looked neater than just letting them hang like FR installed them.

[babock]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

As for the wiring box, I replaced the residential 4-square box with a connection box specifically made for the 7-wire trailer cables. Makes a really nice, water resistant, finish to the connection between tow vehicle and trailer




Inside are 7 machine screw studs with separators between them. I terminated each wire from the TV cord and from the various wires feeding from the trailer, with ring connectors and then fastened each to it's appropriate stud.

If I ever need to do any diagnostic work I just pull the two screws and all 7 wires are right there in a row.

That tangle on the right consists of wires running to slide, awning, and tongue jack. I just haven't gotten around to shortening them so they don't sit there in a wad. Some of them just pass through this box from end to end, not making connection inside. Had the room and it looked neater than just letting them hang like FR installed them.

I use that same box on a couple of my trailers. Haven't put it on my travel trailer yet.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1