Battery to rear bumper and single mount for propane tank?

[JArry]

I am thinking about options to move some balance of weight from the tongue to the back of my (A-frame) trailer, particularly the following:

1.) I have a lightweight rear bumper that seems useful for little more than total sacrifice in the event of a rear-end collision. (Incidentally, there is another currently active thread where it is noted the new ones don't have bumpers.)

But I am hoping to make SOME use of it anyway. I am seeking opinions as to whether the bumper could support a lightweight platform of some kind - maybe plywood or a grate that is clamped and bolted on, avoiding any modification to the bumper or frame construction - to carry nothing more than a single group 24 lead acid battery. I have a two-battery setup on the tongue now, and I would move the second one to the back while in transit - until I go to a location where I will dry-camp long enough to need it. (This is in preparation for a 2.5-week trip this summer.)

I have stepped up onto the bumper in the past to reach certain spots on the back roof panel and have noticed no ill effects. I am not a particularly heavy guy, but a lot heavier than a battery. However, I know there is also the manner of static vs. dynamic weight to be cognizant of.

Again, I assume most if not all feedback will be only opinions, for what they're worth.

2.) I really only need one propane tank at any given time, but the standard two-tank mount/platform currently installed on the tongue (the other kind of "A frame") does not seem friendly toward permanently removing one tank. Has anyone found a way to utilize the mount for one tank only, or replace it with a single-tank mount of some kind? I don't remember how the current platform is attached to the tongue, and the trailer is in winter storage so I am unable to look.

Appreciate any advice!

[OYO]

I was looking to replace my rusted out pan on our holder and saw this:
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Car...n/2020-JR.html

There's several pictures of it in use. Might work.

Those bumpers are darn weak.

[JArry]

Thanks. I have also seen a version of ring bracket that has two vertical rails that could be bolted down, maybe through the existing plate/pan if the configuration allows it - that's my fallback if there is no better-configured product.

[Zoinks]

I'm really curious to see how folks respond since I have an interest in moving some of the weight to the rear of our A213HW. The position of the axle and with two propane tanks and two batteries near the hitch makes it really hard to keep the hitch weight under control. We have that huge compartment up front but we rarely put anything in it due to the hitch weight being right on the limit. We pack all of our stuff as far back in the camper as possible and we still end up near the hitch weight limit when carrying two batteries and two full tanks of propane. Most of our camping is with a power hook up so I was wondering if I could go with a single battery and a single propane tank. The best option would be moving some of the weight to the rear of the camper. When we get the camper out of storage I'm going to look into what could move to the back also. Cheers.

[JArry]

Usually I only need one battery, but on a long multi-stop trip that will occasionally call for two, it would be nice to be able to put the second one somewhere else.

Related question: Is there any way with our trailers to safely locate a lead acid battery in an enclosed space, such as through venting? (Yes, I know if I wanted to shell out the money I could purchase a type that does not offgas. Maybe sometime down the road.)

[OYO]

Originally Posted by Zoinks

I'm really curious to see how folks respond since I have an interest in moving some of the weight to the rear of our A213HW. The position of the axle and with two propane tanks and two batteries near the hitch makes it really hard to keep the hitch weight under control. We have that huge compartment up front but we rarely put anything in it due to the hitch weight being right on the limit. We pack all of our stuff as far back in the camper as possible and we still end up near the hitch weight limit when carrying two batteries and two full tanks of propane. Most of our camping is with a power hook up so I was wondering if I could go with a single battery and a single propane tank. The best option would be moving some of the weight to the rear of the camper. When we get the camper out of storage I'm going to look into what could move to the back also. Cheers.

We're fortunate enough to not have to worry about tongue weight. But could you counter balance by filling the FW tank?

[Zoinks]

Originally Posted by OYO

We're fortunate enough to not have to worry about tongue weight. But could you counter balance by filling the FW tank?

Yes, I do that sometimes and it helps a lot. I’ve not done the math but it feels like you need to put 200 lbs in the back to lower the hitch weight 20-30 lbs. We load up our refrigerator before we leave and put our clothes, blankets, fan, food, misc items as far back as they can go but they just don’t weigh much. The back compartments get stuffed with the hoses, electrical, and tool box. Still not enough to make much of a dent in the hitch weight. The front compartment only has a broom, light folding table, and an LED light string. I don’t put anything else up in that compartment just to be safe. Seems like wasted space. I’m sure the weight of the dormer on a A213HW doesn’t help the hitch weight either.

[OYO]

Don't know if you all have actually weighed, but here's our A213HW (no dormer) loaded for a dry camping trip (water tank and hw heater full). We store a lot in the front locker, but nothing heavy.
Plus the two GC 6 Volts.

[RobDe]

We thought about this when we did the removeable swing tongue in case we didn't have enough room. If you want a bumper on the back that's heavy enough, you would have to get some 2X2/2X4 metal and run it a couple of feet inside the frame rail so it has some rigidity to support weight. If you want the gas to be strictly from the rear, you'd have to relocate the gas line and redo your connections. Not sure if there are state laws about propane tank mounting locations.

[JArry]

Originally Posted by OYO

Don't know if you all have actually weighed, but here's our A213HW (no dormer) loaded for a dry camping trip (water tank and hw heater full). We store a lot in the front locker, but nothing heavy.
Plus the two GC 6 Volts.

I weighed with a bathroom scale last season and had it at about 340. I think at that time I both propane tanks on, but one was empty. I don't remember if it was one or both batteries. And the storage compartment was nearly empty. I would like to check against another scale at some point in case the one I am using is not accurate to that high weight.

My previous TV's hitch weight limit was 500. With this vehicle it will be 350. So I can get there but need to be careful.

Mine is not a highwall, so I probably have a few pounds in my favor because of that.

[Flybob]

In addition to taking the ability of the bumper to handling any additional weight, you need to consider the ability of the frame to handle it as well. In doing this you need to consider the actual torque load added to the frame by the angular torque generated by the extension required to clear the bumper and body.

[mzak]

Originally Posted by JArry

Usually I only need one battery, but on a long multi-stop trip that will occasionally call for two, it would be nice to be able to put the second one somewhere else.

Related question: Is there any way with our trailers to safely locate a lead acid battery in an enclosed space, such as through venting? (Yes, I know if I wanted to shell out the money I could purchase a type that does not offgas. Maybe sometime down the road.)

In my 70's Corvettes the battery was inside the passenger compartment. They had a vent hose attached to the battery caps which went through the floor to the outside. The same with my 2002 Aurora. So yes you can put a lead acid battery inside but you would have to have/ purchase or make filler caps that you can attach a small hose to and vent through the floor. Some sealed batteries have a vent port built into them for certain vehicles that have batteries inside but I don't know of any sealed deep cell batteries that have a vent port built into them. You might want to put the battery in a sealed container and then drill a hole and insert a hose into the container, seal the hole and then vent the hose to the outside. Might be the simplest and quickest way to install battery inside.

[jimmoore13]

I didn't see this touched on, so I'll add that you must consider impacts on weight and balance.

10% to 15% of the GVWR of your rig should be on the tongue for stability when towing. In your OP, I didn't see a plan "replace" the propane tank(s) with something else. You only speak of removing weight from the tongue.
I may have misunderstood a few details, but here's a case for why this is a bad idea.

In round numbers, a full 20# propane tank weighs about 40#. Two, plus the pan, plumbing, hold-down clamps, regulator, etc. will weigh about 90#.
You propose removing 90# from the tongue and adding almost 50# for all the mounting detritus and the single tank at the rear. This further lightens the tongue ... now tongue weight is reduced by roughly 140# (because of the counterbalance from the rear).

Now counterweight the main battery - about 60# - with a second battery on the rear bumper...further reducing tongue weight by another 60#. A total of 200# reduction in tongue weight. And that doesn't account for the additional structure to carry the battery on the rear bumper. (It also doesn't account for the hassle of moving batteries back and forth.)

You measured your tongue weight at about 350# allowing for an empty cargo bay and the possibility of one propane tank being empty (20# for propane alone). Let's say you're running 400# normally.

If you cut your tongue weight in half, you may create a very evil handling rig. Your GVWR is about 3284 (using current specs for a 2021). You NEED that 350# on the tongue so the tail won't wag the dog...especially with the ultralight TV you are using (Ford Escape).

I'd urge you to leave the "utilities" alone on the tongue. Instead, change your habits on loading the front trunk. Pack some heavy stuff at the rear of the camper...inside...to offset a bit of tongue weight. But I discourage removing the propane from the front and adding the battery to the rear, because of weight and balance issues that go against the rig's factory designed-in loading expectations for a typical user.

Your problem, sadly, is that you have too little TV for too much camper.
Are you using a WDH? If not, one might help. But remember to factor the WDH's weight into the tongue weight. In the end, keeping your tongue weight at the magic 350# number your TV requires and not turning your camper into a rolling road hazard may require more than you are considering.

Alone, a 2nd battery on the rear bumper would lighten the tongue by about 60#. That might be all you need to do. If you're rear bumper is anything like the one I had on my high-wall PUP, it's plenty strong. I'm 6'6" and 250#. I was on and off that bumper all the time while tucking canvas. Mine could easily carry a battery. Bolt a flat pan to the top of the bumper at the T-intersection between the bumper and the strut that holds the bumper. Then bolt a good quality plastic battery box to the steel pan. Here's an illustration...not recommendation: https://www.hebronrvparts.com/produc...EaAvjxEALw_wcB

P.S. If you're boondocking, you'll regret dropping to a single propane tank, if for no other reason than the ever more prevalent fire bans make one of these very desirable. https://www.amazon.com/Outland-Fireb...ag=googhydr-20 One of these will eat a tank of propane every two days.

[JArry]

Thanks for all of the input.

Originally Posted by jimmoore13

I didn't see this touched on, so I'll add that you must consider impacts on weight and balance.

10% to 15% of the GVWR of your rig should be on the tongue for stability when towing. In your OP, I didn't see a plan "replace" the propane tank(s) with something else. You only speak of removing weight from the tongue.
I may have misunderstood a few details, but here's a case for why this is a bad idea.

I asked about replacing the dual tank mount with a single tank mount, on the tongue.

Originally Posted by jimmoore13

Now counterweight the main battery - about 60# - with a second battery on the rear bumper...further reducing tongue weight by another 60#. A total of 200# reduction in tongue weight. And that doesn't account for the additional structure to carry the battery on the rear bumper. (It also doesn't account for the hassle of moving batteries back and forth.)

You measured your tongue weight at about 350# allowing for an empty cargo bay and the possibility of one propane tank being empty (20# for propane alone). Let's say you're running 400# normally.

If you cut your tongue weight in half, you may create a very evil handling rig. Your GVWR is about 3284 (using current specs for a 2021). You NEED that 350# on the tongue so the tail won't wag the dog...especially with the ultralight TV you are using (Ford Escape).

Good assessment. I guess my overall response is that, as I added in a later post, I don't remember for sure what combination of batteries and tanks I had on at the time. I can make any combination work, but +/- up to 50 lbs by moving a battery could be the critical factor. The battery is not going to come anywhere near 100% counterweighting the tongue, due to axle placement.

Originally Posted by jimmoore13

I'd urge you to leave the "utilities" alone on the tongue. Instead, change your habits on loading the front trunk. Pack some heavy stuff at the rear of the camper...inside...to offset a bit of tongue weight. But I discourage removing the propane from the front and adding the battery to the rear, because of weight and balance issues that go against the rig's factory designed-in loading expectations for a typical user.

I do that to the extent possible; there may be a way I could add a little more weight behind the axle, but I don't have much flexibility there.

Originally Posted by jimmoore13

Your problem, sadly, is that you have too little TV for too much camper.
Are you using a WDH? If not, one might help. But remember to factor the WDH's weight into the tongue weight. In the end, keeping your tongue weight at the magic 350# number your TV requires and not turning your camper into a rolling road hazard may require more than you are considering.

Yes, it's close, but others here tow with the same TV with good reports. WDH is specifically not recommended for this vehicle, and the one time I have hooked up for a short trip to storage (granted, with less than 350 on the tongue) resulted in no sag at all. This vehicle actually seems to have more torque than the '06 Honda Ridgeline it is replacing. But if I am proven wrong, I will report back for the benefit of others.

Originally Posted by jimmoore13

Alone, a 2nd battery on the rear bumper would lighten the tongue by about 60#. That might be all you need to do. If you're rear bumper is anything like the one I had on my high-wall PUP, it's plenty strong. I'm 6'6" and 250#. I was on and off that bumper all the time while tucking canvas. Mine could easily carry a battery. Bolt a flat pan to the top of the bumper at the T-intersection between the bumper and the strut that holds the bumper. Then bolt a good quality plastic battery box to the steel pan. Here's an illustration...not recommendation: https://www.hebronrvparts.com/produc...EaAvjxEALw_wcB

Hmm, that might work. Yeah, I was thinking no matter what kind of mount I'd use for the battery, it would be safest to place it at the intersection.

Originally Posted by jimmoore13

P.S. If you're boondocking, you'll regret dropping to a single propane tank, if for no other reason than the ever more prevalent fire bans make one of these very desirable. https://www.amazon.com/Outland-Fireb...ag=googhydr-20 One of these will eat a tank of propane every two days.

If I have a good battery option, or play around with weight placement some more and find I can safely keep a second tank, I'll do it. There are seldom fire bans where I live; there might be in some of my travels, but I don't always need a fire. Still, might be fun to try one of those out at some point!

[OYO]

I'm impressed. Two well thought out, civil post back to back with somewhat differing opinions. Thanks!

[JArry]

Hey, that's how it's done in the A-frame forum!

[cdnred]

Originally Posted by RobDe

We thought about this when we did the removeable swing tongue in case we didn't have enough room. If you want a bumper on the back that's heavy enough, you would have to get some 2X2/2X4 metal and run it a couple of feet inside the frame rail so it has some rigidity to support weight. If you want the gas to be strictly from the rear, you'd have to relocate the gas line and redo your connections. Not sure if there are state laws about propane tank mounting locations.

As others have said, they didn't notice much change in tongue weight by relocating items to the rear. If you plan to relocate only one tank to the rear to help in weight distribution, why not just relocate both tanks to the rear and reroute the supply lines. My thinking is that the propane tanks are located where they are on the front as a safety protective feature. It may not even be legal to have propane tanks mounted at the back. Should the trailer get rear ended, the propane tanks would explode due to lack of protection. I'd check the legality of placing them on the rear before putting more thought into relocating..


Locating heavier items to the INSIDE the trailer but towards the rear portion and securing them from moving around maybe a better solution then mounting on the bumper..

[JArry]

I was never considering moving any propane to the rear - just a battery.

Before I do anything, I think I will just wait until the trailer comes out of storage and re-weigh the tongue in different configurations. If I reduce at all, going from two propane tanks total down to one on the tongue seems most realistic and hassle-free.