What tow vehicle for Aframe

[mickrock]

to Monroe Sensatrac shocks,
and the Dodge Grand Caravan, with towing pack,
will do just fine.

[JArry]

This week I traded in my sedan and bought a 2017 Ford Escape SE w/2.0 EB and tow package. I still need to install the seven-pin wiring (it only comes with four) and my brake controller, and I think I may delay those a bit and finish off this season with my Ridgeline (then sell it).

Looking forward to vehicle consolidation, somewhat better MPGs, and an overall more enjoyable experience next season!

[pgandw]

Reality is that any FR A-frame can likely be SAFELY towed by an SUV/minivan/small truck with a 3,500lb tow rating. An engine with 250+hp/225+ft-lbs torque will have enough power to maintain posted speeds up most grades.

Some vehicles of this class will be more comfortable tows than others. Transmission gearing and final drive ratios will be a factor. Tolerance for engine running at 3k+ RPM up grades or in significant headwinds is another factor in the comfort.

Some (the softer rear suspension vehicles) will tow a lot better with a WDH distributing tongue weight off the rear wheels of the tow vehicle (and this will also eliminate sway). I'm in the camp of until you have tried an adjusted WDH, you don't know how pleasant tow driving can be. Others will install air shocks on the rear of the tow vehicle to better support the tongue weight. Being a single axle with rear storage under the bed and a water tank behind the axle, A-frame tongue weight can be kept close to factory spec by proper distribution of stuff in the camper.

Obviously, a bigger SUV with a 5,000+lb tow rating, or a half ton truck will tow an A-frame more easily. But it's not necessary to be safe.

Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan (with E2 600/6000 WDH)
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

[JArry]

Originally Posted by pgandw

Some (the softer rear suspension vehicles) will tow a lot better with a WDH distributing tongue weight off the rear wheels of the tow vehicle (and this will also eliminate sway). I'm in the camp of until you have tried an adjusted WDH, you don't know how pleasant tow driving can be. Others will install air shocks on the rear of the tow vehicle to better support the tongue weight. Being a single axle with rear storage under the bed and a water tank behind the axle, A-frame tongue weight can be kept close to factory spec by proper distribution of stuff in the camper.

I am curious as to your thoughts on cost-benefit of weight distribution considering the tremendous amount of tongue weight the hitch itself adds.

Personally I am going to first try without it (as at least one of the Escape owners in this thread does) and evaluate the handling and sag situation.

I did weigh my tongue for the first time in preparation for this vehicle change. I can vary it between 300-350 lbs as needed. I am going to leave the front compartment empty except for very lightweight items, and I may remove a battery and/or one of the propane tanks - still need some fine tuning. I haven't checked the overall trailer weight - there are no scales intended for this near me - but I am confident it is well under 3,000 including water and other contents.

[quinnsapp]

I tow mine with no problems with a 2019 Nissan Frontier 2.5 liter 4 cylinder. I have the A212HW.

[pgandw]

The E2 600/6000 I use weighs 60#, including bars. What it gives me is a near stock-like ride in my minivan. There is still a little rear-end sag, but it never bottoms out at dips and speed bumps. The big thing for a minivan is restoring weight on the front drive wheels - critical in the back country on slick dirt roads or in windy and/or rainy conditions on the main highways.

In our particular case, we had porpoising (bobbing of the tongue of the A122 and the rear of the minivan with it) as I drove it off the lot in 2014. It was unacceptable to me, and I went back into the dealership to unwind the deal. Dealer proposed we try the E2. I agreed, and they installed it for $310 (cheap to save the A-frame sale). Having never used a WDH before, I was totally amazed by the difference in ride. It is actually so close to stock that DW is comfortable driving while towing the A-frame, and will spell me for several hours at a time.

I have never had sway problems with the A-frames - don't whether it is A-frame design or the WDH. I had horrible problems with sway when towing PUPs, so I am very glad A-frames seem to just tow straight all the time.

I kept and moved the E-2 over when we sold the A122 and bought the T21TBHW (buyer of the A122 had a Ford F250 and didn't need WDH). I added washers (total now 6) to handle the extra tongue weight of the bigger A-frame. One more washer put me where I was with the A122, but I put in a 2nd to get the weight on the front wheels of the minivan. I like the ride now.

We have established our storage regimen on the larger A-frame, with lighter stuff in the front trunk (EZ up, camp chairs, pots and pans, winter clothing, 2 burner camp stove, and Weber Baby Q 1200). The 2 rear storage compartments have my tools, heavy rubber chocks, water and gray water hoses and fittings, 30 amp cord, 30 amp extension, 15 amp extension cord, dish washing equipment, 3 gal water thermos, 1# propane bottles, Lego leveling blocks. Basically, since DW normally cooks and I wash, front compartments are hers, and rear are mine. Inside, we put 2 folding tables at the back of the camper (on the bed or between, depending on configuration). We normally carry full water on the way out. This storage use gives a pretty consistent tongue weight for the WDH adjustment.

hope this helps
Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

[JArry]

Originally Posted by pgandw

The E2 600/6000 I use weighs 60#, including bars. What it gives me is a near stock-like ride in my minivan. There is still a little rear-end sag, but it never bottoms out at dips and speed bumps. The big thing for a minivan is restoring weight on the front drive wheels - critical in the back country on slick dirt roads or in windy and/or rainy conditions on the main highways.

Can't argue with that if it works! I can see how WDH would be particularly important in your apparently front wheel drive-only vehicle.

[bingraham66]

The Escape is a all wheel drive and won't squat with 350 lbs on the tounge like a minivan. Yes, your correct on that you will add 60lbs just for the WDH alone.

As for sway... The Escape incorporates electronic sway control which you won't get in a minivan.. I've had a WDH before and will attest if you need that for the Escape, your obviously towing more than the vehicle weight capacity. Don't mask the symptom of a squating rear end only to be over max hitch weight... Escape hss a 350lbs max hitch weight period...WDH won't fix that.

Try without and see for yourself.. We just got back from going over Snoqualmie pass in Washington state with absolutely no sag, sway or issues..

The pics show right at max hitch weight and hitched up you'll see completely level with no sag and no WDH... simply put, your wasting your money and adding a hassle with the Escape.. the 349 tounge weight was first trip and since have lowered it to 335lbs by loading correctly and filling water tank.shown on betterweigh screenshot.


Kiss..keep it simple stupis.lol. you'll be fine.

[erasetheclouds]

Originally Posted by pgandw

I use minivans because they make great touring cars when not towing. Present tow vehicle for my Flagstaff 2019 T21TBHW (same as A213HW) is a 2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan (re-badged Kia Sedona) with 3.5L V6 and 5 spd transmission (1157 lbs cargo capacity). I would not want to pull anything bigger or heavier with that minivan. It was better with the non-HW A-frame - the extra frontal area of the High Wall takes a toll on gas mileage and forces higher RPMs earlier. The Entourage now has 231K miles, and is still doing the job. The Entourage came stock with a huge auxiliary transmission oil cooler, so no mods were made beyond installing hitch, wiring, and brake controller. I ditched the dealer-supplied braked controller for a Prodigy 2, which provides much smoother braking. When highway conditions permit, I tow at 73 mph on the cruise, getting 13-14mpg. There is enough power to easily maintain posted speeds in the Rockies on the upgrades (typically 60-65), and pass those who are not. 6% upgrades will require 4K RPM.

Given the tongue weights of A-frames (normally 400+ lbs, depending on loading), I would not tow with a minivan without a WDH. We use an E2 600/6000 very successfully. The E2 makes the minivan ride very close to stock with absolutely no sway, even in 35MPH cross-winds at Interstate speeds (65-75mph). The E2 does add about 4 minutes to hitch up/disconnect time and a few extra swings on the tongue jack. Dealer and I agreed to ditch the Flagstaff electric tongue jack and go with a quality manual tongue jack.

We just purchased a 2020 Toyota Sienna to be the Entourage replacement if/when it ever needs a major repair. Found out the 2 minivans even use the same size tires - good news, as the Entourage needed new tires. The 2020 Sienna came standard with the Toyota Tow Prep Package, which consisted of bigger radiator and fan, engine oil cooler, additional transmission oil cooling. The Sienna has a stronger engine, 8 spd transmission, and 200lbs more cargo capacity (1387lbs). I believe it will be a very capable tow vehicle for the A-frame.

just our experiences
Fred W
now 2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
prev 2014 Rockwood A122 A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan with E2 600/6000 WDH
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

Thanks for all the info you provide, Fred. Do you know if the shank used on your WDH is the stock piece or was a higher rise used to accommodate the low hitch on the minivan? I'm looking at the E2 and had the same tongue weight concern, but also have a bit of a clearance concern. The coupler height on the PUP I'm looking at is also over 20" high.

[pgandw]

Originally Posted by erasetheclouds

Thanks for all the info you provide, Fred. Do you know if the shank used on your WDH is the stock piece or was a higher rise used to accommodate the low hitch on the minivan? I'm looking at the E2 and had the same tongue weight concern, but also have a bit of a clearance concern. The coupler height on the PUP I'm looking at is also over 20" high.

The E2 setup was provided by a dealer now out of business. The photos of the hitch head are below. I assume stock E2 parts were used, but can't guarantee. In my case, the hitch mount is installed so the ball is raised to about the level of my rear bumper. Hope this helps.


I did download the manuals from the Fastway web site so I understood how to tweak the install when I changed from the smaller A-frame to the current A-frame.



Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

[pgandw]

Originally Posted by erasetheclouds

Thanks for all the info you provide, Fred. Do you know if the shank used on your WDH is the stock piece or was a higher rise used to accommodate the low hitch on the minivan? I'm looking at the E2 and had the same tongue weight concern, but also have a bit of a clearance concern. The coupler height on the PUP I'm looking at is also over 20" high.

The E2 setup was provided by a dealer now out of business. The photos (upside down) of the hitch head are below. I assume stock E2 parts were used, but can't guarantee. In my case, the hitch mount is installed so the ball is raised to about the level of my rear bumper. Hope this helps.

I did download the manuals from the Fastway web site so I understood how to tweak the install when I changed from the smaller A-frame to the current A-frame.

Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time