Delamination, one more

[crocus]

I have found one more area that might be a source of delamination.
Check your vents for the propane storage compartments. I took my vent covers off, only to find that the factory simply took a hole saw and cut a nice round hole through the wall, but they never sealed the now-exposed core of the wall. So when travelling in the rain, I can imagine water getting though the vent and soaking the styrofoam core of the wall. It wouldn't take long to become a problem.
What kind of morons does FR have designing these things?

[rockwood06]

Originally Posted by crocus

I have found one more area that might be a source of delamination.
Check your vents for the propane storage compartments. I took my vent covers off, only to find that the factory simply took a hole saw and cut a nice round hole through the wall, but they never sealed the now-exposed core of the wall. So when travelling in the rain, I can imagine water getting though the vent and soaking the styrofoam core of the wall. It wouldn't take long to become a problem.
What kind of morons does FR have designing these things?

I fell for you, i have a 2006 and nothing has changed in the way quality. I can not bring myself to spend my money on the same crap that is still rolling off of the same assembly line. Forest River will not listen to the consumers and one would think that with all of the delam problems that are reported to them would wake them up.

The only thing i can think of as to why these problems have not been stopped at the assembly is because in order to make a higher profit the position of the QC has been eliminated or it is a low paying job for a real QC professional.

We talk about the junk that comes from oversea but yet here in the states we can't even make an RV with pride, but i guess that's not fare maybe the materials are made overseas and shipped here for assembly, i know that is what Lipper does with there frames.

If you have yourself a good RV and you love camping don't trade it in, it seems like getting a good RV is like playing the Lottery. It's all about the $$$

[crocus]

"We talk about the junk that comes from oversea but yet here in the states we can't even make an RV with pride, but i guess that's not fare maybe the materials are made overseas and shipped here for assembly, i know that is what Lipper does with there frames."
==============================================
It has nothing to do with the quality of materials, and everything to do with the workmanship, or lack thereof.
Warren Buffet didn't buy the company to provide us with good product, he bought it to make himself money. If he could build campers in China and ship them economically, he would. That ia the american way.

[grhodes50]

The following is only my opinion. You may or may not agree and that's OK.

Bottom line is the rv industry as a whole takes shortcuts to save bucks, which saves us bucks. Any additional cost to build a unit will be passed on to the consumer. Manufactuers must do this or go out of business.

We as consumers have high demands. Look at what we're talking about here. Camping trailers that have LCD tv's, iPod docking stations, elec awnings and stabiliser jacks, etc... Lots of extras which I believe are not neccessary to enjoy a camping trip. Look at how a lot of us started out, tents and pop ups. I had some some great times camping in a tent and in my pop up.

Age and a back injury have been contributing factors in my owning a tt like I have now. It came with $3.8k worth of free features on top of what it already had. But to be quite honest as long as I don't have to sleep on the ground or go through what it takes to set up a tent or pop up, I would still have a great time camping without the extra features my tt has. That's why I say there are basically 2 groups of us, RV'ers and Campers. Some of us can live without those things and some of us can't.

Your unit will more than likely be full of these features if you buy off the dealers lot and more of these features are becoming standard items every year. At the same time we are only willing/capable of paying X amount of dollars. So the manufactuers cuts cost where he thinks he can in order to meet our demands at a price we can afford. It seems that most of the time this sacrifices quality workmanship, such as the things that crocus has discovered, in order to produce units with several features at a price we are willing to pay. I, myself, would rather loose some of these features if it would mean a better quality trailer.

So maybe we as consumers need to bear a small percentage of the blame. Maybe if we sent a message to the industry that we would rather have a tt with better quality materials/workmanship and that we are willing to sacrifice some of the features they are including now days, then maybe we could buy a better built tt at a reasonable price.

Like I said, this is just my opinion.

Thanks crocus for taking the time to go through your unit and report what you have found. I'm sure it will save many of us some headaches as well as dollars down the road.

Good Luck and Happy Camping!

[SaskCampers]

Originally Posted by grhodes50

The following is only my opinion. You may or may not agree and that's OK.

Bottom line is the rv industry as a whole takes shortcuts to save bucks, which saves us bucks. Any additional cost to build a unit will be passed on to the consumer. Manufactuers must do this or go out of business.

We as consumers have high demands. Look at what we're talking about here. Camping trailers that have LCD tv's, iPod docking stations, elec awnings and stabiliser jacks, etc... Lots of extras which I believe are not neccessary to enjoy a camping trip. Look at how a lot of us started out, tents and pop ups. I had some some great times camping in a tent and in my pop up.

Age and a back injury have been contributing factors in my owning a tt like I have now. It came with $3.8k worth of free features on top of what it already had. But to be quite honest as long as I don't have to sleep on the ground or go through what it takes to set up a tent or pop up, I would still have a great time camping without the extra features my tt has. That's why I say there are basically 2 groups of us, RV'ers and Campers. Some of us can live without those things and some of us can't.

Your unit will more than likely be full of these features if you buy off the dealers lot and more of these features are becoming standard items every year. At the same time we are only willing/capable of paying X amount of dollars. So the manufactuers cuts cost where he thinks he can in order to meet our demands at a price we can afford. It seems that most of the time this sacrifices quality workmanship, such as the things that crocus has discovered, in order to produce units with several features at a price we are willing to pay. I, myself, would rather loose some of these features if it would mean a better quality trailer.

So maybe we as consumers need to bear a small percentage of the blame. Maybe if we sent a message to the industry that we would rather have a tt with better quality materials/workmanship and that we are willing to sacrifice some of the features they are including now days, then maybe we could buy a better built tt at a reasonable price.

Like I said, this is just my opinion.

Thanks crocus for taking the time to go through your unit and report what you have found. I'm sure it will save many of us some headaches as well as dollars down the road.

Good Luck and Happy Camping!

I totally agree with this sentiment and for the record, all one has to do is a Google search on delam issues and it becomes quickly apparent that FR is not the only RV manufacturer that has issues with delam or anything else for that matter. There are many many 100k+ MH's and trailers from very elite brand names that are going through the same things we do. Remember we are but a small precentage of Fr's customers and usually being human most only seek the help of the internet when we have issues with something. Most of the happy owners don't even bother with looking for brand specific forums and would rather spend their time enjoying their purchase. So the amount of problems a manufacturer has seem to be skewed to the side of nothing but problems but in the real world is totally the opposite. Yes there are some realy winners of units out there and every manufacturer has them as at some point one unit comes off the line with all things at their their absoulte max in the tolerance range and man is that owner gonna have issues.
And I would also be prepared to take less in the way of toys and frills to have a better built unit for the same bux. Also would like to give Crocus props for spending the time to find these issues so that some of us can go inspect our units and perhaps avoid an issue down the road when we should be enjoying our hard earned dollars purchase.

[crocus]

grhodes, I couldn't agree more.
But I guess what gripes me is the little things that the manufacturer could do, things like sealing those open cuts though the walls, things that would cost them very little, and yet possibly eliminate a lot of the problems owners are facing.
Basically, I am quite happy with the quality of my camper, and I would estimate it would have cost only a thousand dollars to fix the things I have done, plus a few potential issues (like exactly what are the upper cupboards screwed to?). I would have gladly paid that extra money if I could go over my camper, as I am presently doing, and find nothing to fix.
I realise that I got a lot of camper for the money, but in my case I didn't have a lot of choice, as our licencing laws limited me to a camper under 10,000 GVWR. I couldn't have bought a "better" camper if I wanted to, as they would have exceeded that weight limit.
The thing is, the consumer is completely to blame, as grhodes said. The consumer demands CHEAP. As a group, they seem to be too ignorant and short-sighted to understand that you get what you pay for. I have tools and equipment that is 50 years-old and more, and they still work fine. The garbage people buy today won't last months, let alone years. That is why our garbage dumps are full of the cheap junk people buy.
Unfortunately, it is pretty much impossible to turn back the clock. There aren't enough of us willing to pay for quality to make it profitable for anyone to produce quality goods. We are stuck with what we've got, so it's up to us to fix the manufacturing defects in an effort to make the stuff we buy last a bit longer.
But, by all means we need to first and foremost.

[Koodog]

Great points made. I too thank Crocus for his efforts in getting the word out not only about problem issues, but also solutions for these. Hopefully this thread and those like it will better inform consumers about the truth of the RV industry. They have done a good job with marketing and sales in creating expectation levels which are a long way from reality.

[Willis]

I also agree that Crocus has raised some important issues.

However, I'm on my 4th RV from three different manufacturers (Jayco, Fleetwood, Forest River) and I can tell you from experience that ALL of them have had significant compromises and QC issues.

My current FR is no exception, but it is the best unit I've owned so far.

[grhodes50]

Originally Posted by crocus

(like exactly what are the upper cupboards screwed to?)

I guess I'm I'm lucky that Prime Time let customers know this info.

Sidewall Construction
ETERNABOND Construction starts with the 5-layered sidewall standard on all Prime Time products. The frame of the sidewall is created with aircraft quality aluminum tubes that provide for a sidewall that is lightweight yet strong. This advanced framing technique will never rot, warp, deteriorate, mold, or mildew. The aluminum tubes are welded together, not screwed, to ensure a lifetime of structural integrity. The sidewalls are then stuffed with hi density EPS foam that creates a wall with very high insulative properties and sound-deadening qualities. In order to provide a secure anchor-point for interior walls and cabinets, a layer of electrogalvanized sheet metal (EGS) is strategically placed on the interior side of the aluminum and foam wall assembly. On top of the EGS, a layer of plywood decorative board is laminated to the aluminum and foam wall assembly providing a residential look that is extremely resistant to damage and punctures. The exterior layer of the sidewall is formed utilizing a one-piece, Gel Coated fiberglass. The Gel Coated fiberglass looks great, is extremely durable, and is easy to clean. The fifth layer of the sidewall is a plywood panel that is bonded between the fiberglass and the aluminum and foam wall assembly. This additional layer provides increased strength and a smooth exterior appearance.

An additional benefit to using solid EPS foam in the sidewalls is that it will never settle over time. Fiberglass insulation will often settle or “fall” in the sidewall after exposure to constant transit vibrations. It might be only a couple of inches, but the void created at the top of your wall allows warm air to escape in the winter, cool air to escape in the summer, and extreme condensation inside your unit. ETERNABOND Construction eliminates these voids for long-term thermal efficiency.

[crocus]

Yes, I did note that point about the layer of sheet metal when I checked out the Prime Time site. Do you know how thick that metal is?
I have noticed a few areas (through holes cut in the wall) on my Flagstaff where there is also a thin layer of sheet metal, but it is not a continuous sheet.

[grhodes50]

I haven't checked it out yet but to me the way they describe it, it's probably the same as you have found in yours. Just located at the points they feel are neccassary.

Next time I go out to check the tt out I'll look to see for sure.