Slide outs extend when extending landing gear

[jledwards0117]

I have a 4 month old 2022 Cedar Creek 360RL with the Lippert Level Up system.

I have had issues with the local dealer's service department (a lack of knowledge and expertise -- long story) and I believe that they damaged something in my hydraulic system when I last had the 5th wheel there for repair.

Now, when I extend my front landing gear to hitch or unhitch, one or more slide outs are extended. This happens even if I turn off the manual valves that allow you to selectively extend/retract slide outs.

As an example: I took the RV back to storage today and, in the process of unhitching, the pinbox was slow to raise off of the hitch. It finally did but when I went around to the curb side of the trailer I found that, during the process of extending the front legs, the dining slide had completely extended. Again, this was in spite of having the slide controls closed.

Does anyone have a notion why this is happening? Stuck solenoid valve? Busted seals? How could the manual slide out valves not prevent the slides from extending?

Thanks in advance,
Jim

[wildmanabe]

sounds like your local dealership got RV Techs that came from campers world.
If i am reading it right. sounds like both switches are powered together. still don't make any sense.

[Pmp1086]

I own a 2020 37MBH. When I picked it up from the dealer and returned home, I unhitched with no problem. I then hit the auto level. The camper began to do its dance and then everything stopped. Slides, like yours, were attempting to come out while auto leveling. All the valves were properly configured and closed. Returned it to dealer who eventually determined that the mother board in the controller was bad. Lippert sent a new one and have been trouble free since then. Hope the info helps.

[jledwards0117]

Originally Posted by wildmanabe

sounds like your local dealership got RV Techs that came from campers world.
If i am reading it right. sounds like both switches are powered together. still don't make any sense.

The general manager confessed to me that the techs are not trained and certified. Nice of him to be honest with me but it doesn't solve my service issues -- current or future.

This problem appears to be hydraulic in nature, not electrical. The slides move when the landing gear reach a certain amount of resistance or pressure.

[jledwards0117]

Originally Posted by Pmp1086

Returned it to dealer who eventually determined that the mother board in the controller was bad. Lippert sent a new one and have been trouble free since then. Hope the info helps.

Thanks for the reply, but this does not seem to be a controller issue. Slides move when landing gear reaches a certain amount of resistance or pressure. I suspect that there is a blown seal but I don't know for sure or how to determine where the problem may be. I plan to call Lippert on Monday to see if I can get help there.

Jim

[Rango]

I’m going to give you purely a guess on my part. Since you said the slide operate even when the slide control valve is closed try checking the manual valves on top of the front landing gear cylinders. These are used for emergencies and since hydraulic fluid is by-passing the control valves it sounds like one of the cylinder emergency valves has worked open slightly allowing hydraulic pressure in the lines.

Again I’m just guessing but it can’t hurt to check.

Let us know what you find.

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by jledwards0117

Thanks for the reply, but this does not seem to be a controller issue. Slides move when landing gear reaches a certain amount of resistance or pressure. I suspect that there is a blown seal but I don't know for sure or how to determine where the problem may be. I plan to call Lippert on Monday to see if I can get help there.

Jim

Jim, you need to re-think that conclusion.

A hydraulic system works with one pump pumping fluid into all open paths. Think of a Y-pipe with two balloons on it. One is one of those long, skinny balloons that clowns and magicians use that takes a lot of pressure to inflate fully. The other is a soft, globular balloon that inflates pretty easily. You blow into the third leg of the Y, and the globular balloon fills first. Once it reaches the point where the globular balloon reaches its elasticity limit and becomes harder to fill, the skinny balloon starts to inflate.

Your situation is analogous. Hydraulic valves are open to the landing gear and also to the slideouts. The lowest force (hydraulic fluid pressure) is dropping the landing gear before it hits the ground, and all the fluid goes there. As the gear hits the ground and begins to take the load, more and more pressure is required. Once that pressure meets the pressure required to move the slideout, it will start to move.

Once the slideout starts moving, it may take less pressure than lifting with the landing gear. Slideout motion continues until it's fully extended. Additional pressure doesn't move it (like a balloon contained in a can), so the landing gear resumes lifting.

You believe you have only selected the landing gear. But the slideout is also selected. There are three possible reasons for this:

1. Slideout valve is stuck open.
2. Slideout solenoid (Electromechanical switch for the slideout valve) is stuck on.
3. Control board has failed and is activating slideout valve and landing gear valve when you select landing gear.

So far you have rejected at least two of these possibilities. Why you have done so is beyond my comprehension.

[jledwards0117]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Jim, you need to re-think that conclusion.

You believe you have only selected the landing gear. But the slideout is also selected. There are three possible reasons for this:

1. Slideout valve is stuck open.
2. Slideout solenoid (Electromechanical switch for the slideout valve) is stuck on.
3. Control board has failed and is activating slideout valve and landing gear valve when you select landing gear.

So far you have rejected at least two of these possibilities. Why you have done so is beyond my comprehension.

Larry,
Thanks for the illustrative analogy. That is my understanding of how the hydraulic system for leveling/slide-outs works. I have not ruled out an open solenoid and have not completely ruled out the control board. I just think the latter is a less likely scenario (though I could be wrong). The reason I feel this way requires telling a bit of the story that I omitted due to its length. Here goes:

About 2 months ago, I went to the place where I store the RV to pick it up for a service appointment (to fix a rattle in an air conditioner) at my dealership. When I tried to raise the front end to hitch up, nothing happened. No hydraulic motor noise -- nothing. Since I had an appt to keep anyway, I followed the process to manually extend the landing gear, hitched up and took the trailer to the dealer. I informed them of the problem and said it seemed to be a hydraulic system failure. They took it in, I waited about 4 hours and then was called back to the service area.

The service manager indicated that they could not find the problem (??!!??). However, they believed it was an electrical issue. I had, 4-5 weeks before this, upgraded the original charger and inverter with a new Victron Multiplus-II converter/inverter. Since the electrical components were not OEM, the service manager said they could not further diagnose the issue. I expressed understanding that they could not, under warranty, work on the newly installed equipment but reiterated that I believed it to be a hydraulic system failure, not an issue with the new components. I even had them verify that the batteries were fully charged and the converter was supplying the appropriate voltage. The service manager then dropped the bombshell statement that my slides were not hydraulic, they were purely electric. I politely disagreed but he was insistent and said that this proved that the problem was not solely with the hydraulic system. At this point I knew I was working with the wrong people. I asked the tech to help me manually operate the front jacks so I could re-hitch, since my drill's battery was dying. When I brought my truck around to hook up to the trailer, the tech was already "drilling away", trying to manually extend the landing gear. I asked him if he had unplugged the wires to the landing gear solenoid. He had not, so stopped to do so, then started drilling again. I said, "Wait. Did you open the landing gear solenoid valve?" He had not, so I told him how to do it and we then extended the legs and I hitched up. By this time, I could see some of my slides had already been pushed part-way out, even though I had the IRC valves closed for all three slides. I took the trailer home, quickly determined that the hydraulic motor solenoid had failed, ordered a new one and replaced it. This fixed the non-funtioning hydraulic motor problem.

It is this incident, and the service tech's carelessness, which I believe overpressured the system and either damaged a solenoid or blew a seal. I have had issues with the system ever since, and it has gotten worse.

Again, I could be wrong, but you may see why 1) I have some cause to believe that the problem may be an open solenoid (or solenoids) or a blown seal and 2) why I am looking for information on this forum rather than relying on the skills of the service department at my dealership. I have also reached out to Lippert.

I apologize to anyone who may think I was casually disregarding their thoughts. That was not my intention, since I do greatly value the information that these forums provide. I am trying to use what I already know to prioritize efforts toward a solution, and I'm looking for a better understanding of how to narrow down the potential culprits. FWIW, I am REALLY confused as to how the slides are being extended when the IRC valves are closed?

Thanks,
Jim

[bubbles]

Not familiar with the Level-Up system but if there are individual control valves for the slides/levelers have you verified that the allen screw in each valve is fully counterclockwise? May be a moot post.

[LittleBill]

Originally Posted by jledwards0117

Larry,
Thanks for the illustrative analogy. That is my understanding of how the hydraulic system for leveling/slide-outs works. I have not ruled out an open solenoid and have not completely ruled out the control board. I just think the latter is a less likely scenario (though I could be wrong). The reason I feel this way requires telling a bit of the story that I omitted due to its length. Here goes:

About 2 months ago, I went to the place where I store the RV to pick it up for a service appointment (to fix a rattle in an air conditioner) at my dealership. When I tried to raise the front end to hitch up, nothing happened. No hydraulic motor noise -- nothing. Since I had an appt to keep anyway, I followed the process to manually extend the landing gear, hitched up and took the trailer to the dealer. I informed them of the problem and said it seemed to be a hydraulic system failure. They took it in, I waited about 4 hours and then was called back to the service area.

The service manager indicated that they could not find the problem (??!!??). However, they believed it was an electrical issue. I had, 4-5 weeks before this, upgraded the original charger and inverter with a new Victron Multiplus-II converter/inverter. Since the electrical components were not OEM, the service manager said they could not further diagnose the issue. I expressed understanding that they could not, under warranty, work on the newly installed equipment but reiterated that I believed it to be a hydraulic system failure, not an issue with the new components. I even had them verify that the batteries were fully charged and the converter was supplying the appropriate voltage. The service manager then dropped the bombshell statement that my slides were not hydraulic, they were purely electric. I politely disagreed but he was insistent and said that this proved that the problem was not solely with the hydraulic system. At this point I knew I was working with the wrong people. I asked the tech to help me manually operate the front jacks so I could re-hitch, since my drill's battery was dying. When I brought my truck around to hook up to the trailer, the tech was already "drilling away", trying to manually extend the landing gear. I asked him if he had unplugged the wires to the landing gear solenoid. He had not, so stopped to do so, then started drilling again. I said, "Wait. Did you open the landing gear solenoid valve?" He had not, so I told him how to do it and we then extended the legs and I hitched up. By this time, I could see some of my slides had already been pushed part-way out, even though I had the IRC valves closed for all three slides. I took the trailer home, quickly determined that the hydraulic motor solenoid had failed, ordered a new one and replaced it. This fixed the non-funtioning hydraulic motor problem.

It is this incident, and the service tech's carelessness, which I believe overpressured the system and either damaged a solenoid or blew a seal. I have had issues with the system ever since, and it has gotten worse.

Again, I could be wrong, but you may see why 1) I have some cause to believe that the problem may be an open solenoid (or solenoids) or a blown seal and 2) why I am looking for information on this forum rather than relying on the skills of the service department at my dealership. I have also reached out to Lippert.

I apologize to anyone who may think I was casually disregarding their thoughts. That was not my intention, since I do greatly value the information that these forums provide. I am trying to use what I already know to prioritize efforts toward a solution, and I'm looking for a better understanding of how to narrow down the potential culprits. FWIW, I am REALLY confused as to how the slides are being extended when the IRC valves are closed?

Thanks,
Jim

Jim - the IRC control valve could be bad. I have had slide problems where they wouldn't lock in due to cylinders leaking (externally & internally), bad electrical control panel and a bad manual control valve that you manually use to isolate a specific slide.

You haven't mentioned whether the slides work properly when you extend/retract them by using the normal control switch. When you do, do the landing legs move at all (up/down a little)? A stuck or partially open solenoid could definitely contribute to the problem by allowing hydraulic fluid to seep to the slides. In your opinion would all the slides open if you were able to hold the the switch long enough?

Also according to my interpretation of your posts is that you travel with all the valves closed when traveling. As I only use the valves when I want to isolate a slide, otherwise they remain open while traveling or stationary.

Hopefully Lippert will be able to help in determining a solution to your problem.

Good luck and be safe -

[jledwards0117]

Originally Posted by bubbles

Not familiar with the Level-Up system but if there are individual control valves for the slides/levelers have you verified that the allen screw in each valve is fully counterclockwise? May be a moot post.

Yes, I checked each of the leveler and slide solenoid valves and the screw in each valve is in the normal, turned fully counterclockwise, position. Thanks for the idea, though.

[jledwards0117]

Originally Posted by LittleBill

Jim - the IRC control valve could be bad. I have had slide problems where they wouldn't lock in due to cylinders leaking (externally & internally), bad electrical control panel and a bad manual control valve that you manually use to isolate a specific slide.

LittleBill,
I've not tried to disconnect and inspect the IRC valves. I assumed, based on the way they work, that they were simple ball valves. If so, I'd be surprised if they failed, which is why I said that I did not understand how the slides moved with those valves turned off. I've not been able to find information on them to confirm the type of valve, though.

Originally Posted by LittleBill

You haven't mentioned whether the slides work properly when you extend/retract them by using the normal control switch. When you do, do the landing legs move at all (up/down a little)? A stuck or partially open solenoid could definitely contribute to the problem by allowing hydraulic fluid to seep to the slides. In your opinion would all the slides open if you were able to hold the switch long enough?

Yes, the slides work properly when I use the normal controls to extend or retract them but, as you mentioned, I have on a couple of occasions noticed some slight movement of the landing gear.

Originally Posted by LittleBill

Also according to my interpretation of your posts is that you travel with all the valves closed when traveling. As I only use the valves when I want to isolate a slide, otherwise they remain open while traveling or stationary.

Yes, I often turn off the IRC valves after opening/closing the slides, and especially so since I have been dealing with this issue. It seems now, however, that they are not completely performing as designed.

Thanks for all your thoughts. I welcome any information that will help me understand and, hopefully, diagnose the problem.

Jim

[Pmp1086]

The IRC valves I was told have an o-ring on the inside. I was also told by the shop technician that the o-ring can be easily damaged if the valves have pressure and you try to turn the valve to isolate a slide. I was told if the IRC valves offer any resistance when trying to turn them to "depressurize" the valves by relieving pressure by hitting the white in/out valve by the pump unit (a few quick clicks) and then turn the valve you wish to isolate. You can actually feel how hard the valves are on my 37MBH to turn when the slides are fully extended or retracted. I always depressurize the system by hitting the white in/out valve a few times to relieve the pressure. Maybe your technician did not know about this and inadvertantly damaged an IRC valve o-ring (internally) that would be hard for you to detect. Again, just a thought. If you do find out the problem, please let us know.

[Aussieguy]

If you don't like your dealer's ... expertise, knowledge or the color of his pants.


You can find another service company that may be more suitable in your expectations.
Contact Forest river...........they will give you a list of companies they work with in your area.


Hydraulics systems are a blend of electrical / hydraulic components and a sticky valve can cause funny symptoms that are a bit harder to diagnose


I very much doubt that most dealers have on staff a tech that is solely responsible for hydraulics...


I am also betting many a good technician came from working at Campers World
The good techs easily transition into working for themselves as Mobile RV Techs
So the dealers etc... are always having a hard time maintaining their level of expertise

[Splashes3]

To the OP

If Lippert can not help you, then it's time to schedule a trip to see Orvan Fry at Amish RV Family in Topeka, Indiana.

He WILL Fix the problem!! He only works on CCs.

Their office phone is 260-593-0951...I forgot which option you have to select.
You could also try is daughter's cell, who does all the scheduling, 574-349-3547. You might be able to have Orvan talk to you, otherwise his scheduling is 6-8 months out.

Good Luck,
Mike

[NMWildcat]

Don't know if you contacted LCI tech support yet or not. I have found them very helpful in helping me diagnose problems with my hydraulic system. They have even sent me free parts long after they system was out of warranty.
Here is the LCI Master Manuals where you can find more details about your particular systems. There is also tech support numbers in the manuals. https://support.lci1.com/master-manuals/

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by Splashes3

To the OP



If Lippert can not help you, then it's time to schedule a trip to see Orvan Fry at Amish RV Family in Topeka, Indiana.



He WILL Fix the problem!! He only works on CCs.



Their office phone is 260-593-0951...I forgot which option you have to select.

You could also try is daughter's cell, who does all the scheduling, 574-349-3547. You might be able to have Orvan talk to you, otherwise his scheduling is 6-8 months out.



Good Luck,

Mike

I get that Orvan is one of the best. But why would anyone make a 20 hour one way drive for a problem that most mobile RV techs could fix, even if they had to call LCI for support?
I have had excellent results when using independent mobile or service only shops all over the country.
I agree Orvan could probably easily fix it, but why take that long of a trip before you have exhausted all the easier, local options.

[SimchaSabre]

You could also try giving Cedar Creek Service a call....If for nothing else, just to let them know about your local service issue.

Here is the contact info:
Rachel Rollins
Forest River, Cedar Creek
SERVICE MANAGER
rrollins@forestriverinc.com
PHONE: 260-593-4000 EXTENSION: 20244
DIRECT LINE: 260-499-2056
HOURS OF OPERATION: 6:30AM UNTIL 3:00PM

[SimchaSabre]

btw...Orvan Fry is great at fixing any Cedar Creek problem...especially the ones you didn't even know you had. And we're lucky to leave only 3 hrs from Topeka IN, but unfortunately, due mostly to this forum, the demand for his service has created very long appointment waits.

But as already stated, this should be pretty easy to fix by a local service facility.

The fact that the lockout valves do prevent the slides from operating could suggest some kind of hydraulic line routing error during the build.

[jledwards0117]

Originally Posted by NMWildcat

Don't know if you contacted LCI tech support yet or not. I have found them very helpful in helping me diagnose problems with my hydraulic system. They have even sent me free parts long after they system was out of warranty.
Here is the LCI Master Manuals where you can find more details about your particular systems. There is also tech support numbers in the manuals. https://support.lci1.com/master-manuals/

Thanks, Scott. I have not called them yet but will do so this week as I have the opportunity. It's good to know that they have provided that type of support.

Jim