Wheel Bearing Issues / Disc Brakes

tomherb · 01-09-2019, 08:24 PM

We have a 2016 Cedar Creek 34RL. GVWR on our unit is 16,000 lbs. CAT scale shows we are at 14,800 when we travel. We added Kodiak disc brakes with new bearings in May 2017.

After putting 6000 miles on the trailer in 2017, when doing maintenance (inspecting and repacking bearings) it was discovered that the bearings were scorched. These bearings were of Chinese manufacture. The installer stood behind their work and paid for new Timken bearings.

When I discussed this recently with the installer he mentioned that they are now using Timken bearings on new installations, but he had not heard of problems with other bearings on other disc brake installations that they have done and they do many.

We used the trailer for 6000 miles in 2018. Again when doing maintenance it was found that the new bearings were scorched and also very loose. I had watched the installation of these bearings and it appeared they were installed, lubed and tightened correctly. We have verified the correct part numbers were used for the bearings and races.

Has anyone else had any of these problems either with or without disc brakes? Any idea what could have caused this to have happened twice? We are at a loss of how to proceed since this has happened twice now. Something else must be going on…?

**Bama Rambler** · 01-10-2019, 10:13 AM

When you first installed the disc brakes, were the original bearings damaged?

Were all the bearings damaged or just some of them?

Did the installer check the hub and axle bearing surfaces with a caliper when they replaced the bearings? I would suspect the hubs more than the axles. If they didn't, it would be time to make sure they are within tolerance. They should also be checked for Out of Round.

Which grease was used in them?
Was the same brand/type of grease used both times?

5picker · 01-10-2019, 10:46 AM

Any chance of a photo?

I'd like to see what you are calling 'scorched.'

Maybe the incorrect grease is being used?

Paulie1138 · 01-10-2019, 11:09 AM

Whenever I do new bearings and races, I will recheck them with a ‘wiggle the wheels’ check after 1020 miles or so. Assures me the races got fully seated.

clr · 01-10-2019, 11:28 AM

When I had my trailer brakes replaced with disk brakes by Performance trailer braking the races for the bearings were already installed in the new hubs. So the races are almost always not the problem with new disk brake installations. I used grease that was recommended by Dexter axle the maker of my axles, Lucas red and tackey. I picture would really help here.

Iwannacamp · 01-10-2019, 11:48 AM

IMO...if you had 2 sets of bearings "fail"...IE 4 pairs of bearings fail. You have something miss-matched or something wrong... as in incorrect hub spacing or shaft length or something.

Brother Les · 01-10-2019, 12:15 PM

...scorched...?

wrong grease?

Harkerr · 01-10-2019, 01:40 PM

Is it possible the brakes are overheating the hubs causing failure. Even with discs, Tow vehicle must do the bulk of holding the trailer on a downgrade. No way brakes even discs can handle that energy.

ard58 · 01-10-2019, 02:07 PM

If it were a hub, spindle, issue these parts would be discolored also. Rotors or the other brake parts would also show signs of excessive heat if there was an issue with them. It's either a lube issue, or adjustment issue. As said several time, pictures are worth a thousand words.

D W · 01-10-2019, 02:09 PM

If by "scorched" you mean bluish-black traces, that is a lubrication problem compounded by a speed/load factor. Two different sets of bearing, two failures is not a coincidence. If you take pictures of the Timkens that failed and sent them to Timken, I'd bet they'd tell you the same thing.

aceinspp · 01-10-2019, 02:21 PM

How about over loading of camper. Just a thought. Later RJD

tomherb · 01-10-2019, 05:15 PM

Thanks for the replys. I talked to Mor Ryde yesterday to see if others reported problems with the disk brake setup. Brian there said no, he hadn't heard of any other issues but he did mention that they are now using Timken bearings on disk brake conversions. Not sure what grease they used on the install but the repack this time last year was with something the tech called "red and tacky" which I had never heard of.

The trailer only had about 4000 miles on it when the disk brakes were installed and I did not check the original bearings and drum brake hubs when they came off.

I have verified that the bearings used are the ones specified for this application.

The end play on the bearings appeared to be set correctly by the tech by tightening and then backing off a quarter turn before locking down.

I'm wondering if the machine shop that pressed the new Timken racecups into the hubs may not have pressed them all the way in and that created the looseness over time that I am now seeing. Is this possible?

I've attached a few photos of the axle stubs showing the scorching. Unfortunately, I don't have good photos of the bearing but they show equivalent scorching on the insides.

I've got an IR thermometer that I use occasionally at a rest stop. I never remember seeing a hub that was over about 165 and they all seemed consistent.

Still figuring out a solution but I'm thinking that the new bearings will need to be checked again for proper tightness after about a 1000 miles, just like you check lugnuts after about 50 miles when a wheel has been removed.

valleyduo · 01-10-2019, 05:39 PM

When they installed the new bearings, did they hand pack them with grease or did they use the cheater zerc to grease them? They need a hand pack. I'd like to think a shop would do that, but I don't trust anybody when it comes to these things.

Paulie1138 · 01-10-2019, 07:55 PM

Tomherb, i would not wait 1000 miles to check. They should have set themselves within 10/20 miles or so, if at all. You can verify this with a simple test. Grab the top of the wheel and pull it in and out ‘with vigor’! You should not have more than a hair of wiggle, if any at all. If you have slop or a definite thunk, they are too loose! If too loose, tighten and recheck again in 10/20 or so. Loose again? YIKES! Hope you get it fixed!-and glad you found it before it failed.

Allisfan · 01-11-2019, 08:02 AM

Undersized spindles, based on the pictures the bearing race is spinning on the spindle instead of the bearings spinning on the race. That is what caused the radial scratches/wear pattern on the underside. Yes you probably ordered the correct bearings based on the axle part/model number but that doesn't mean the correct spindle was attached to the axle. In my opinion. Eric

Allisfan · 01-11-2019, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allisfan

Undersized spindles, based on the pictures the bearing race is spinning on the spindle instead of the bearings spinning on the race. That is what caused the radial scratches/wear pattern on the underside. Yes you probably ordered the correct bearings based on the axle part/model number but that doesn't mean the correct spindle was attached to the axle. In my opinion. Eric

I also agree with valleyduo, bearings need to be hand packed. A little at a time in the palm of your hand

Brother Les · 01-11-2019, 09:07 AM

'tomherd':

If you read your own posts and look at the pictures your can almost 'see' what happened.

Quote:

the new bearings were scorched and also very loose

Quote:

Tech tightened the nut down and 'backed off 1/4 turn'

Quote:

but I'm thinking that the new bearings will need to be checked again for proper tightness

What was the utmost changed variable? New brake system. It looks to me that you ended up having to much movement side to side on your bearings and they were 'walking'. The 'tech' may have tightened each hub/bearing into the spindle to where he 'thought' it was 'set'. If he backed off 1/4 turn when he thought it was fully 'in' and the bearing(s) were not completely set to the wall, there will be movement. (imo 1/4 turn back off is to much) 'You' should have jacked up each wheel after a 50-100 miles to check spindle/bearing movement and tightened more if needed. Your new braking system is the real wild card variable to this and may have caused a move exacerbated 'twist' on the wheel/bearing/spindle. Is this 'set up' correctly? are YOU using too much camper braking? The tow unit should always carry the most amount of braking (55/45 %?) and not the camper having more 'braking' than the TV. I am not saying that it is too much braking on the RV (not in thread that I have read), I am just saying that it could be part of the stress on the bearings and spindle. Don't just to 'blaming' the bearing when they (and spindle) are 'burned', look for the cause.....

safe travels

ard58 · 01-11-2019, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allisfan

Undersized spindles, based on the pictures the bearing race is spinning on the spindle instead of the bearings spinning on the race. That is what caused the radial scratches/wear pattern on the underside. Yes you probably ordered the correct bearings based on the axle part/model number but that doesn't mean the correct spindle was attached to the axle. In my opinion. Eric

Race does not contact the spindle. They, both, are pressed/driven into the hub. So question to the OP, you mentioned you watched the install, yet the bearings were loose. Were/Are the races driven in completely? Also, does the bearing fit snug on the spindle? If not, it's incorrect bearing.

5picker · 01-11-2019, 09:55 AM

I'm going to throw my 2¢ in here and say you don't have an issue at all.

Look at the same discoloration of the metal on the threaded flat where the adjustment nut goes in one of the photos... and also where the spindle meets the larger, raised portion where the seal rides in another photo.

There is nothing that could spin at either of those places.

I think you simply have some discoloration of the metal.

What caused it? Who knows but I can't believe 'scorching'.

If the axle somehow got hot enough to 'scorch' those small areas a brown color, the grease would have run out like water and been black.

Also, if the cone bearing's inner race has the same localized brown spot(s) then they were NOT turning on the spindle. If the inner cone race was turning on the spindle to get hot enough to create 'scorching', that brown mark would go the entire way around, on either the outside of the spindle or the inside of the inner cone bearing race.

I've seen dozens of bearings failed. The issue starts where the bearing rollers contact the race surface(s) not where the inner cone race slips onto the spindle. When there is spindle damage, it is a result of the bearing failing FIRST, not the other way around.

What do the RACE surfaces look like?

Allisfan · 01-11-2019, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ard58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allisfan

Undersized spindles, based on the pictures the bearing race is spinning on the spindle instead of the bearings spinning on the race. That is what caused the radial scratches/wear pattern on the underside. Yes you probably ordered the correct bearings based on the axle part/model number but that doesn't mean the correct spindle was attached to the axle. In my opinion. Eric

Race does not contact the spindle. They, both, are pressed/driven into the hub. So question to the OP, you mentioned you watched the install, yet the bearings were loose. Were/Are the races driven in completely? Also, does the bearing fit snug on the spindle? If not, it's incorrect bearing.

Sorry for not being exact "inner race" should spin on the spindle which it's clearly doing based on the pictures

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