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Old 10-14-2018, 11:17 AM   #1
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Cargo Carry Capacity?

Hi all - the wife and I are strongly considering a 2019 FR3 30DS. We've been researching and viewing for over a year and feel like the 30DS checks the most boxes (including price). We're not new to RV'ing, and are downsizing from a 39' diesel pusher. Looking for something much smaller and more manageable.

Anyway, I am trying to understand the right way to think about cargo carrying capacity and total carrying capacity and I just can't get the numbers to make sense.

For example, this FR3.

Front axle max: 7,000
Rear axle max: 12,000
Total combined Axle capacity is 19,000lbs
GVWR is only 18,000lbs (probably the missing 1,000 pounds is buffer for loading and balance)

Here is where things get weird.
The RV dry weight based on the weight sticker is 15,653, so that should leave 2,347 pounds (18,000 - 15,653 = 2,347)
That is under the FR "brochure CCC" of 2,530, but this unit has some options, a second air conditioner, etc so not totally surprising it might be a little heavier and thus have a slightly lower CCC than the brochure.

However, the yellow wall sticker in the RV itself says Cargo Carry Capacity is listed at only 1,170 pounds!!!! Now, they assume a full freshwater system which adds 482 pounds, but that still is only 1,652 cargo capacity pounds. Way short of the calculated 2,347 pounds. What gives? Where are the missing 695 pounds?

Are they automatically deducting for the estimated passengers and the limit that is left is purely for cargo?

I have read that manufacturers subtract 154 pounds per sleeping occupant, but FR mentioned nothing about whether occupants are - or are NOT - counted in the overall CCC. If FR has already subtracted for occupants, it has basically allowed for 4.5 occupants. If I round a bit, perhaps they counted for 4 people? If not, a carry capacity of 1,170 pounds before passengers is totally inadequate. If they are assuming 1,170 pounds are still available after the weight of 4-5 occupants, it is a lot better (not great, but acceptable).

Anybody know the right way to calculate this? I asked two different salesmen and both were clueless and both made up different answers mostly along the lines of "don't worry about it, nobody pays attention to weight."
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Old 10-14-2018, 01:21 PM   #2
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sounds like one is a factory 'dry' weight, and the other is a 'loaded' weight, or typical weight with 2 people, fuel, water, etc. already subtracted to make the 'CCC' an easier calculation for your 'stuff' that you can bring onboard, within the limits.
It may sound like 1,000 to 1,500 lbs is not a 'lot' to be able to bring onboard, but I bet that it actually goes a LONG way toward what 'stuff' you can add - you're not bringing furniture or appliances or heavy items, only clothing, food, etc.

also, the axle weight ratings are from the axle manufacture, but the RV's CHASSIS, from Ford I presume, is the more limiting factor, which is why it is LESS than the axle combined weight ratings.... it's pretty typical to have slightly heavier rated axles than the chassis will actually weigh... you wouldn't want it the other 'weigh' around!
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Old 10-14-2018, 01:33 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanmsi View Post
I have read that manufacturers subtract 154 pounds per sleeping occupant, but FR mentioned nothing about whether occupants are - or are NOT - counted in the overall CCC. If FR has already subtracted for occupants, it has basically allowed for 4.5 occupants. If I round a bit, perhaps they counted for 4 people? If not, a carry capacity of 1,170 pounds before passengers is totally inadequate. If they are assuming 1,170 pounds are still available after the weight of 4-5 occupants, it is a lot better (not great, but acceptable).
My guess (and it's only a guess ) is that they've accounted for 4+ occupants and you ccc is actually 1,170 pounds. Since you're downsizing your rig, you might have to downsize your possessions.
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Old 10-14-2018, 04:03 PM   #4
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Sleuthing

Thanks for the comments. It makes a very big difference if people are included in the totals or not. I'll try to find out from the Factory whether the CCC assumes about 700lbs of passengers or not.

If it is 1,100 before passengers, then after 400 pounds for people, its only 700.

But having had our prior coach weighed empty and loaded, the weight adds up fast. Food, ice, beverages for even a weekend easily top 100lbs. Dishes, glasses, pots, pans, forks, knives, etc. likewise crest 100 pounds. Two folding eBikes is another hundred. Boards for the leveling jacks = 25. Portable air compressor, tools, spare oil and antifreeze gets another hundred. Clothes, beach box, etc. 100 more. (getting 100 pounds of clothes is very easy, as anyone who has flown recently and checked luggage knows).

Now we're at around 100lbs and still need to pack the water hoses, black tank hose, water pressure regulators, 12v tire inflator, laptops, iPads, chargers, binoculars, cameras and lenses, 50amp to 30am adapter, cleaning supplies, etc.

Boom. Fully loaded at 1,100 pounds. And I'd really rather not be at fully loaded. But with another 700lbs to play with? No problem!
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Old 10-14-2018, 04:46 PM   #5
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The sticker says that the weight of *occupants* and cargo should not exceed 1654.



What's the UVW?
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Old 10-14-2018, 04:57 PM   #6
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According to the yellow label they already deducted a full fresh water tank from the CCC and are displaying the remaining cargo capacity.


It's a strange way to calculate the water because in the past RV trailer manufacturers have just informed owners that water is cargo.


Looks like Forest River is setting some new standards with your trailer as it has 19.5" wheels and tires. Must have got a real bargain from someone. What brand are they? Some of the brands connected to the ST market are building that size in an all steel design.
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Old 10-14-2018, 05:18 PM   #7
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OOPS! Reposted in error.
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanmsi View Post
Hi all - the wife and I are strongly considering a 2019 FR3 30DS. We've been researching and viewing for over a year and feel like the 30DS checks the most boxes (including price). We're not new to RV'ing, and are downsizing from a 39' diesel pusher. Looking for something much smaller and more manageable.

Anyway, I am trying to understand the right way to think about cargo carrying capacity and total carrying capacity and I just can't get the numbers to make sense.

For example, this FR3.

Front axle max: 7,000
Rear axle max: 12,000
Total combined Axle capacity is 19,000lbs
GVWR is only 18,000lbs (probably the missing 1,000 pounds is buffer for loading and balance)

Here is where things get weird.
The RV dry weight based on the weight sticker is 15,653, so that should leave 2,347 pounds (18,000 - 15,653 = 2,347)
That is under the FR "brochure CCC" of 2,530, but this unit has some options, a second air conditioner, etc so not totally surprising it might be a little heavier and thus have a slightly lower CCC than the brochure.

However, the yellow wall sticker in the RV itself says Cargo Carry Capacity is listed at only 1,170 pounds!!!! Now, they assume a full freshwater system which adds 482 pounds, but that still is only 1,652 cargo capacity pounds. Way short of the calculated 2,347 pounds. What gives? Where are the missing 695 pounds?

Are they automatically deducting for the estimated passengers and the limit that is left is purely for cargo?

I have read that manufacturers subtract 154 pounds per sleeping occupant, but FR mentioned nothing about whether occupants are - or are NOT - counted in the overall CCC. If FR has already subtracted for occupants, it has basically allowed for 4.5 occupants. If I round a bit, perhaps they counted for 4 people? If not, a carry capacity of 1,170 pounds before passengers is totally inadequate. If they are assuming 1,170 pounds are still available after the weight of 4-5 occupants, it is a lot better (not great, but acceptable).

Anybody know the right way to calculate this? I asked two different salesmen and both were clueless and both made up different answers mostly along the lines of "don't worry about it, nobody pays attention to weight."
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanmsi View Post
Thanks for the comments. It makes a very big difference if people are included in the totals or not. I'll try to find out from the Factory whether the CCC assumes about 700lbs of passengers or not.

If it is 1,100 before passengers, then after 400 pounds for people, its only 700.

But having had our prior coach weighed empty and loaded, the weight adds up fast. Food, ice, beverages for even a weekend easily top 100lbs. Dishes, glasses, pots, pans, forks, knives, etc. likewise crest 100 pounds. Two folding eBikes is another hundred. Boards for the leveling jacks = 25. Portable air compressor, tools, spare oil and antifreeze gets another hundred. Clothes, beach box, etc. 100 more. (getting 100 pounds of clothes is very easy, as anyone who has flown recently and checked luggage knows).

Now we're at around 100lbs and still need to pack the water hoses, black tank hose, water pressure regulators, 12v tire inflator, laptops, iPads, chargers, binoculars, cameras and lenses, 50amp to 30am adapter, cleaning supplies, etc.

Boom. Fully loaded at 1,100 pounds. And I'd really rather not be at fully loaded. But with another 700lbs to play with? No problem!
Your number from your sticker are:
1200 lbs > Seating Capacity 8 x 150 lb.
1173 lbs > 532 KG CCC
2373 lbs total

I checked the numbers before I purchased my 28DS. The 30DS is on the same 190" E53 chassis as a 28DS but 2 foot longer behind the rear axle. (31' 10" vs 29' 8")
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Seating Capacity 6 x 150 = 900 lbs.
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My 28DS started with 900 lbs plus 2321 lbs CCC. I have reduced it some with DIY mods. IE:replaced bathroom & kitchen plastic faucets with metal single handle faucets. Samlex EVO-2212 70 lbs. Copper cables 50 lbs. Porcelain 320 toilet upgrade 30 lbs. Solar panels 150 lbs. Mattress topper 30 lbs. SnapPads 20 lbs. etc.

You are right it all adds up fast. I think that is why FR uses lightweight wood for cabinets & paneling. If they use residential grade cabinets, we would have NO carrying capacity. I have been happy with my FR3 28DS. Just remember to store the heavier cargo in the front storage bays. Try to put lighter things in the rear cargo bay. You don't want to be tail heavy.

p.s. I moved up from a class C on a E450 chassis that only had a 400 lb CCC.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:30 AM   #9
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Just maybe the yellow label on the bottom of the pix provided is for trailers and is causing the miscalculations. In any event, I don't think a label for trailers is a proper label for a motorized RV.

By the way, were some of the installed options installed by the dealer? If so they may have to be deducted from the CCC label.
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Old 10-15-2018, 04:42 AM   #10
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In trucks, these capacities whatever numbers were based on input from the marketing department, balanced by the accountants and sales personnel.

Remember, in the past payload did not include options like truck beds, tailgates A/C, fuel, people sometimes. Every vehicle was different. There is no standard.

Thus in general meaningless numbers.

The number printed on top as the max gross vehicle weight is the legal number you agreed with the local DMV. Always less than axle ratings.

Notice we engineers were not mentioned!

Take $15 dollars and load your vehicle up and weigh it full of everything you plan to travel with. Find the nearest cat scale and weigh your vehicle.

If less than the posted legal max you are now informed.

The front and rear axle numbers are I believe what the engineers thought were ok, maybe. Got to check the tire ratings also. Another gotcha. Legal thou, is the sticker.

No engineer would sign anything without building some safety margin built in.

The odds of a roadside scale catching violators is minimal. If you have a major accident some ambulance chaser would maybe suspect you of overloading your vehicle. However, that is a slippery slope. Might just get the insurance company an out.

RV manufacturers are a colorful bunch.

Towing specs now have a SAE official spec! However, all manufacturers do not follow it. Confused yet?
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Old 10-15-2018, 05:50 AM   #11
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I think this verbiage makes it very clear that your CCC includes you, your beer and anything else you decide to load into your vehicle. The bottom sticker in your post makes it clear that a full tank of fresh water was considered before the CCC was determined.

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Old 10-15-2018, 06:03 AM   #12
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I will be weighing mine tomorrow.

I have a new 2019 30DS with the x package. We will be doing our first trip tomorrow on the 16th of October. I will have it loaded up with water, food, fencing, 3 big dogs and my wife and I. I plan to top the fuel and weigh the RV on the way out. I will post my results as soon as I can.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:32 PM   #13
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The Answer

So I spoke at length to a factory guy from Forest River and he provided the exact answers. This is useful information for any current or future Fr3 owner.

He confirmed the actual carry capacity of the particular 2019 FR3 30ds we looked at is 1652lbs.

He explained how Forest River calculates this is as follows:

1. Vehicle Max GVWR = 18,000 lbs
2. Vehicle dry weight recorded as this FR3 rolled off the assembly line = 15,653 lbs (note, this is NOT in drivable condition)

This leaves 2,347 lbs of additional cargo before the chassis reaches max capacity.
18,000 GVWR
- 15,653 Dry Weight
-----------------
2,347 Cargo capacity remaining

3. Vehicle is prepared to drive (add in 80 gallons of gas, full propane tank, two house batteries, antifreeze in engine, engine oil, etc). Vehicle is weighed again. This FR3 now weighs 695lbs more than it did in step two. Makes sense as 80 gallons of gasoline alone is 504lbs, and the propane is around another 100. The vehicle is now ready to hit the road. Cargo carry capacity is now derived as the now ready-to-drive RV weight Once they prep it to actually drive, there are 1652 lbs of carry capacity left.

18,000 GVWR
15,653 Dry Weight
- 695 Ready to drive (gas, propane, etc)
-----------------
1,652 Cargo capacity remaining

How that 1652 gets used is up to the owner. But passengers, water, and cargo all have to fit into that.

4. If water is added, it must be subtracted from cargo capacity. If freshwater tank and hot water system is full, that is 482 pounds.

18,000 GVWR
15,653 Dry Weight
695 Ready to drive (gas, propane, etc)
- 482 Full freshwater, empty grey and black tanks
-----------------
1,170 Cargo capacity remaining

So bottom line is that the fully water loaded FR3 has about 1,200 pounds of cargo capacity for people, food, dishes, cookware, clothes, toys, bbq, chairs, kayaks, bikes, DVDs etc.

For a family of 4 typical Americans, I'd be willing to bet most FR3 owners are either at or over the published carry capacity of the unit with a full water tank.

Weight capacity is even tighter if the washer/dryer option is selected (the Splendide combo unit) another 148 pounds must be added. I bet few choose this option, but it is unique advantage of the FR3.

18,000 GVWR
15,653 Dry Weight
695 Ready to drive (gas, propane, etc)
482 Full freshwater, empty grey and black tanks
- 148 Washer/Dryer
-----------------
1,022 Cargo capacity remaining

I appreciate Forest River taking the time to clearly answer the question, and I hope this helps others who are evaluating. Have any current owners taken their FR3 to the scales? That would be very interesting, not only total capacity but Front/Rear balance.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:55 PM   #14
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Thanks for the information. I for one really appreciate the level of detail and your efforts to document it.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:21 AM   #15
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Well with full water, gasoline, propane and packed for a three night trip this is our weigh ticket. It's myself my wife and three large dogs. My wife and I are not huge people. It's a little disappointing as we don't over pack.
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Old 10-17-2018, 12:14 PM   #16
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Well with full water, gasoline, propane and packed for a three night trip this is our weigh ticket. It's myself my wife and three large dogs. My wife and I are not huge people. It's a little disappointing as we don't over pack.
*Gross Weight 18,500 lb
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:45 AM   #17
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Rv math.

As an engineer I ran into this everywhere.

Complete details are hard to come by. Research is hard.

Everything is on the net, just not where you think. A lot of the.truck payload things are funny.

These forums are a treasure trove of information. Generally, found out the hard way.

Well, you got your answer. Leave water, mom and the puppies at home. Problem solved!

No trailers either.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:41 PM   #18
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Thank you - and Yikes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilthepilot View Post
Well with full water, gasoline, propane and packed for a three night trip this is our weigh ticket. It's myself my wife and three large dogs. My wife and I are not huge people. It's a little disappointing as we don't over pack.

THANK YOU THANK YOU for weighing your rig and posting the weight slip. Very useful information.

I wish I could say I was surprised but given the low CCC of the FR3 I'm not surprised that a real load easily exceeds the max GVWR. I suspect many FR3 owners are over max capacity.

What's interesting is that the weight is more rear-biased and I assume you and DW were sitting in the front seats during weighing. The front axle is under the manufacturer rating of 7,000 pounds, yet the rear axle is over manufacturer weight rating of 12,000. In the evening (sleeping), you would be even more over the rating on the rear axle although since you aren't moving it probably isn't a big deal.

Do you have the washer/dryer?

Previous poster was right - forget about a trailer unless it is zero weight flat tow toad.
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