Hot water heater issues

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by Mandog

You will most likely see the spot burned into. Or a bad looking area.

Not always. I've seen open circuits and ones that were shorted to ground and tripped the breaker the instant it was thrown. Both looked perfect from the outside. I don't ever remember seeing a water heater element or a range element that exhibited visible damage.

The reference I've posted several times describes the element construction (same as an electric range burner or oven element). The outside jacket is steel. A little bit of arcing on the inside is not going to be visible from the outside. The inner element is a nichrome coil, same as inside your toaster. A non-conductive powder supports the element and keeps it out of contact from the steel jacket. In an overheat situation, there are two failure modes:

• The element gets too hot and opens, just like an incandescent lamp failure.
• The powder fuses (melts) and allows the element to make contact with the jacket. Then either the element contacts the jacket in two places, lowering its effective resistance and tripping the breaker, or it contacts the jacket in one place, near the hot (not neutral terminal); this is a low-resistance path to ground and also trips the breaker.

[TTnewbie]

I'm feeling very optimistic. I will let you everyone know if I am able to make it to storage tomorrow.

[Irene D]

Originally Posted by NavyLCDR

...close all the faucets and then manually pop open the relief valve on the water heater. Be prepared. You should get a solid stream of water with the handle manually opened….

Following this...how do you pop open the relief valve? Where is it?

[Irene D]

Originally Posted by TTnewbie

I
Im a family of 5...mom/dad and 12 year old twins and 13 year old daughter. Will the 10 gallon upgrade make any difference?
There are tankless, or "on demand" water heaters that people seem happy with. When I need a new water heater, I will look into those.

You should be able to go online at Forest River and find manuals for your equipment, and videos. These forums are great - even just being alerted to a problem so you know about it and realize you have to learn more, is valuable. I spent the past 2 days trying to figure out where to put a jack and how I can put jack stands to hold my trailer up while I grease the bearings. There appears to be one little spot for a jack, leaving no place for jack stands. Not covered in anything I could find...and I am learning on here that I need to open a release valve on my water heater, so adding that to my list for tomorrow.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by bbmuse

The instant that power is turned on to the electric heating element with no water in the water heater tank, the element will burn up.

Not necessarily true as much with the newer units. Suburban has been installing a new type electric element that can sustain being energized for a little bit without water. Suburban manufacturing response about this is listed in post # 6 in this FAQ thread.


https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...ml#post1661524

[nomad297]

Just throwing this out there: an element can test good on continuity, but it can still be bad. To perform a complete diagnosis on an element, you must also check the amp draw to the element. Not doing this has caused many a plumber to make a return trip on a “no hot water” call after assuming an element is fine simply because it tested good for continuity.

This is the mentality: Plumber tests element/s for continuity. Continuity is good. Plumber assumes the thermostat/s are bad because that’s all that’s left if there is also power to the water heater. Plumber swaps out thermostat/s and leaves. Customer calls back because they still have no hot water. Plumber returns and replaces element/s.

Most plumbers don’t even think to check the amp draw.

EDIT: Citation: https://go.bluevolt.com/default/m/Ca...Category/13033

Bruce

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by aceinspp

Sound like a good PDI was not done or you would have learned all the issues you have had. Later RJD

Actually, a PDI is a pre delivery inspection. This is not performed with the customer present. A walk through is what is done with the customer. And, not trying to sound snotty, but expecting to have a dealer supply you with a tech to teach you everything you need to know about an RV seems a little unrealistic. You don’t buy a new truck and then expect the dealer to teach you to drive do you? When I buy a new truck they don’t show me how to change a tire, change the oil, etc. either. How would a dealer even schedule for walk throughs if a customer expected an hours long course on all things RV(other pickups were probably scheduled following yours). I have always expected 30-60 minutes on a walk through to show me the location of everything and to quickly demonstrate everything is working. Anything beyond that I considered my responsibility to learn on my own through research. With all of this being said, I do think the tech should have been clear that the OP would need to turn his bypass valves when dewinterizing since it appears it was in fact winterized at pickup.

[TTnewbie]

It definitely was winterized and he definitely did not tell me anything about bypass valves or how to get water into the water heater. As a matter of fact, had he shown me what to do with the bypass valves he would have noticed that there wasn't an access hole at either point, the water heater or the water pump.

I didn't expect the guy to show me EVERYTHING about the trailer, but unlike a new truck, there is no manual that includes everything that you need to know. What I received were a dozen plus installation guides for all of the equipment in the trailer.

[Scrapper]

Originally Posted by TTnewbie

It definitely was winterized and he definitely did not tell me anything about bypass valves or how to get water into the water heater. As a matter of fact, had he shown me what to do with the bypass valves he would have noticed that there wasn't an access hole at either point, the water heater or the water pump.

I didn't expect the guy to show me EVERYTHING about the trailer, but unlike a new truck, there is no manual that includes everything that you need to know. What I received were a dozen plus installation guides for all of the equipment in the trailer.

Usually those installation guides also include the operation of the equipment. But keep in mind the key word here is "Usually".

[TTnewbie]

I read through the hot water hear guide and it said nothing about bypass valves. It only tells you how to light the gas feature. I wasn't even sure of how to turn on the electric feature after reading the instructions from what i remember.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by TTnewbie

It definitely was winterized and he definitely did not tell me anything about bypass valves or how to get water into the water heater. As a matter of fact, had he shown me what to do with the bypass valves he would have noticed that there wasn't an access hole at either point, the water heater or the water pump.

I didn't expect the guy to show me EVERYTHING about the trailer, but unlike a new truck, there is no manual that includes everything that you need to know. What I received were a dozen plus installation guides for all of the equipment in the trailer.

We have 5 videos provided by Suburban that we keep in the FAQ section. These videos explain a lot of things with Suburban water heaters, including the bypass valves on the tank type heaters. These videos are located here if anyone wants to watch them for future reference.


https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...es-135977.html

[mmartin_tdc]

The multimeter does not need to be anything fancy or expensive. I have a couple of Harbor Freight units that serve me well.

https://www.harborfreight.com/7-func...g_q=multimeter

For under 7 bucks, can save you many hours of guessing and trial and error.

[TTnewbie]

I just watched the video on the bypass valves. Is the water heater supposed to have 3 valves? I only have two that I could see. Am I missing something?

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by TTnewbie

I just watched the video on the bypass valves. Is the water heater supposed to have 3 valves? I only have two that I could see. Am I missing something?

No, you are not missing anything. Mark Polk states in the video that the 3 valve system is the most common but you could have other configurations....which you do.


I have a thread on the different types that we encounter on many FR products, including your two valve system.


This thread is located here:


https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...st-103381.html

[TTnewbie]

Just got back from storage. I used a multimeter as was suggested above and got a 10.6 ohm. Based on what I was told at the service department and a few people on here a reading of 10 ohm means that the electric element is in working condition. I didn't have any access to water so I could not fill up the heater and test it out using the electric mode. So far I think I was lucky and things are in working order.

[TTnewbie]

I guess everyone went camping since my last post. lol

Can anyone that knows about using muilti-meters/electric confirm what I was told about the reading in the pic? Does that reading indicate that the electric heating element is not damaged?

[wmtire]

That should be a good element if you removed one or both of the electric wires to the element before testing it.

[5picker]

Originally Posted by wmtire

That should be a good element if you removed one or both of the electric wires to the element before testing it.

X2

[Iwritecode]

Originally Posted by TTnewbie

I guess everyone went camping since my last post. lol

Can anyone that knows about using muilti-meters/electric confirm what I was told about the reading in the pic? Does that reading indicate that the electric heating element is not damaged?

Based on this post, that sounds about right.

https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...ml#post1916267

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by nomad297

Just throwing this out there: an element can test good on continuity, but it can still be bad. To perform a complete diagnosis on an element, you must also check the amp draw to the element. Not doing this has caused many a plumber to make a return trip on a “no hot water” call after assuming an element is fine simply because it tested good for continuity.

This is the mentality: Plumber tests element/s for continuity. Continuity is good. Plumber assumes the thermostat/s are bad because that’s all that’s left if there is also power to the water heater. Plumber swaps out thermostat/s and leaves. Customer calls back because they still have no hot water. Plumber returns and replaces element/s.

Most plumbers don’t even think to check the amp draw.

EDIT: Citation: https://go.bluevolt.com/default/m/Ca...Category/13033

Bruce

Continuity tests can indeed be deceiving if you don't know the tester's threshold.

I have a cute multimeter that's the size of a business card. I used to carry it in my shirt pocket (when I wore a white business shirt and tie each day). Besides AC and DC voltages and resistance (ohms), it also had a beep function for continuity. Set that function and put the leads across a fuse and it would beep for the good ones and not for the blown ones.

One day I was using it to reverse-engineer a fairly complex circuit board and getting beeps all over the place--testing I usually did with a lab-quality Fluke meter. So I started testing my meter and discovered it would beep even with 50 ohms of resistance. The Fluke threshold was less than 10 ohms. I was finding connections that weren't there.

Current draw (amp draw) is inversely proportional to resistance. The clamp-on ammeter is a little quicker, but if all you have is a multimeter, measuring the resistance is equally diagnostic. It's also the case that finding no current does not discriminate between a failed element, open thermostat, or lack of power to the unit. You need to take a voltage reading or two to see what's going on.

The spec resistance is 10-11 ohms. Current (I)=Volts (V)/R(Resistance). In this case, I=120/10 = 12 amps. Measuring 12 amps or 10 ohms determines the same thing.