Mislabled new RV trailer - Wolf Pup 16BHS

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

I wouldn't either! The OP's Chrysler Pacifica is a unibody vehicle! It has no frame. Mostly sheet metal. I'd love to see the full towing specs for it including Payload and Maximum tongue weight. Maybe GLXMEX will post the yellow sticker from the car's door frame.

Watch

to see how the Chrysler Pacifica is put together. They boast about how much metal was removed.

The OP would be well served to trade the Pacifica for a Tahoe, Yukon XL, or Explorer that has a real frame.

My TV is unibody, too. Rated for 7200#.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by FredMP

Looks like Forest River screwed up. You have 15" wheels on a 5,000lbs axle but they used the numbers of the 14" wheels / 3,500lbs axle like mine (see image).

We have 15" wheels on a 3500# axle. They do that combination, too. We have the 235/75R15 off-road tires, too.

[Tacky]

I certainly understand your concern, you were told one thing, and sold another. I understand you seeking legal recourse. But, on the other side, you are looking at a few hundred pounds difference. I understand that you took it on a 2000 mile trip and were happy with the towing performance. Honestly, I'd run it and be happy. Millions of other rv owners are overweight by hundreds to thousands of pounds. If you thought it towed Ok, it probably is. Tow ratings are not rocket science. The same vehicle will be rated to tow less in the US than it is in Europe. If it were not for what the sticker tells you, would you be happy? Don't look at the sticker. OK, everybody can tell me what a fool I am for saying this now!

[mgb1969]

The salesman should have never sold you that trailer. If your car towing capacity is 3500 lbs then you must deduct all the cargo weight to include passengers, fuel and other items. There is a rule of thumb to stay at about 80% of cargo capacity so your towed vehicle should have probably been in the 2500 lb range. I would go back and talk to those folks. Bad business.

[Mechcondrid]

ya, despite the buyer beware thing some are saying; you asked the dealer to sell you something meeting requirement x (that being that your vehicle can tow it and it meets your cargo requirement) you bought that something based on the dealer saying and confirming it meets requirement x.

end all said and done; it does not in fact meet requirement x.

that is illegal and is a bait and switch of sorts, regardless of opinion you relied on a commercial dealer to sell you something and use their expertise to pick something that would work for your intended use and purpose; it does not though.

in CT at least (and a few surrounding states) this is illegal and comes under a dealer selling something that is "not fit for purpose" and is required to make it right or is liable for any damages on your part that are incurred to correct the problem.
i imagine most other states commerce laws will be in line with that.

I JUST had to deal with this after buying a pre-fab garage to store tools and a vehicles during bad inclimate weather; asked them in person, in email and in text if it would withstand the weight of a 2+ton vehicle and was told yes, yes, yes.

come to find the floor they used was just 3/4" T&G engineered OSB, manufacturer said that dealer should have called the office and told them to putin double layer flooring for vehicle storage. dealer swore up and down they never had this issue before and will take care of it on their dime.

they come out replace one sheet of OSB plywood (the square that got soft and spongy) and said tough luck.

they have now gotten served with a suit from us (and it was checked by our lawyer to make sure it was all good and we did in fact have a case) for almost $1600 for materials and labor to double layer the floor with 3/4" cabinet grade 6 ply plywood (which was surprisingly the cheaper wood than 3/4" PT by like $30) plus going on 6 months of interest and court fees.


don't let them just stick you with it, if they refuse to be of any help that actually helps (consignment on 0% is BS move to have them keep their money and not be out anything but chump change) then tell them they need to fix it or you'll see them in court and you'll be reporting the fraudulent stickers and certificate to the nhtsa.

[Adrian Gordon]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

Not just BBB. Mislabeling violates NHTSA Federal Regulations. Many times the seller simply provides a new label but in this case the label may constitute fraud. Certainly false advertising as the information on the lable was what you relied on when making the purchase. This isn't like being off by a couple gallons water capacity. The Certification label is required by Federal regulation to be accurate.

In case you missed it, he didn't rely on the sticker. He knew damn well when he purchased the unit that the sticker was wrong. The dealer told him that and gave him an actual weight which was also wrong as it turns out. Fraud requires reliance by the purchaser on the misrepresentation. Are you suggesting the he lie to a court about that?

[Mechcondrid]

Originally Posted by Adrian Gordon

In case you missed it, he didn't rely on the sticker. He knew damn well when he purchased the unit that the sticker was wrong. The dealer told him that and gave him an actual weight which was also wrong as it turns out. Fraud requires reliance by the purchaser on the misrepresentation. Are you suggesting the he lie to a court about that?

no he wouldn't have to, he relied of a second source of info also provided by the dealer that was ALSO a misrepresentation.

a second lie does not then invalidate the first lie in terms of fraud, it compounds it actually; it (At worse) shows a concerted effort to pass off the misrepresentation as the truth or to get what the dealer wanted (money) fraudulently.

[Adrian Gordon]

Originally Posted by Mechcondrid

no he wouldn't have to, he relied of a second source of info also provided by the dealer that was ALSO a misrepresentation.

a second lie does not then invalidate the first lie in terms of fraud, it compounds it actually; it (At worse) shows a concerted effort to pass off the misrepresentation as the truth or to get what the dealer wanted (money) fraudulently.

Please share with us your legal authorities for your position. Case citations or citations to statutes would be helpful.

[frankraney]

Originally Posted by Mexglx

I bought a new Wolf Pup 16BHS and found it is overweight. The label on the door said it weighted 1,610#s. Then the dealer showed me a certificate of equipment that said it weighed 3,078, and said the trailer was just mislabled, so I bought it. Then I weighed it and it is over 3,400#s. The dealer weighed it and it was 3,480#s (dry, empty). My max tow weight is 3,600 (2019 Chry. Pacific with factory tow package). I cannot use it for its intended purpose of family camping since I can't bring the family and our gear. If I load a two bikes and groceries, we are overweight. Anyone else have am issue with mislabled weights on travel trailers. I am trying to get them to buy it back but no luck. Anyone have luck getting Forest River or the dealer buy back a defective or misrepresented RV?

Thanks,
Al

Good luck getting forest river to do anything. Your best bet, of you have proof or was miss started is to get a lawyer.

[frankraney]

Originally Posted by Mexglx

I don't know what your % of max tow capacity you feel comfortable with but I buy my vehicles with the intent to use them for their intended purpose. I bought it with the factory tow package. The GTW (gross tow weight) capacity of the van is 3,600#. Plus 360# max tongue weight. So I should be able to tow up to 3,960#s GCVW. I was aiming to tow 3,500#s if the van had weighed what the website said. That would have been 88% of the vans capacity.

Totally agree on not trusting the sales guy. I should know. I am a sales guy. The weight on the sticker was wrong though. Then what do you do? I pointed that out and they found a certificate of equipment that stated it was 3078# for my VIN. I then bought it. Then before our first trip, I weighed it and all my expectations were way off. I was overloaded. When I weighed it empty it was 3440#s.

If the trailer is 3960#, that is what you are towing, with party of our on the hutch and party on the axels. But you are pulling the complete weight. Overloaded!!!

[noreaster]

I haven't read every reply but if the OP is still here there's a recall for this. It might help your case.

[Mechcondrid]

Originally Posted by Adrian Gordon

Please share with us your legal authorities for your position. Case citations or citations to statutes would be helpful.

i don't know about other states variations but here in CT it comes under CT Gen Stat § 42a-2-315 (2012)

"Where the seller at the time of contracting has reason to know any particular purpose for which the goods are required and that the buyer is relying on the seller’s skill or judgment to select or furnish suitable goods, there is unless excluded or modified under section 42a-2-316 an implied warranty that the goods shall be fit for such purpose."

dealer sold the trailer stating it is x weight and the vehicle is within it's limits and that the trailer would be of a weight to be usable by the buyer to tow and load cargo (people, etc.)

[hogdooz]

Mislabeling seems to be standard practice. We looked at a Forest River Work & Play tow behind at an RV show. The label on it said 8600#+. We deleted a few items in the RV to get the weight down to 8000#. When we picked the RV up, the sticker said 9300#+. I went straight to a certified scale and weighed empty, it was over 9800#. Luckily we had purchased a different vehicle because at 8000#, we were going to be just over the weight allowance for our existing vehicle. Now that we're on the road, fully loaded, our RV weighs 13,800#. Of course, it's a double axle rated at 12,000#. Our truck, a 2019 GMC 2500HD Duramax full of fuel, and loaded for our trip is 8590#. I feel I'm pushing everything to the limit and really disappointed the company misrepresented the product they were selling.

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by hogdooz

Mislabeling seems to be standard practice. We looked at a Forest River Work & Play tow behind at an RV show. The label on it said 8600#+. We deleted a few items in the RV to get the weight down to 8000#. When we picked the RV up, the sticker said 9300#+. I went straight to a certified scale and weighed empty, it was over 9800#. Luckily we had purchased a different vehicle because at 8000#, we were going to be just over the weight allowance for our existing vehicle. Now that we're on the road, fully loaded, our RV weighs 13,800#. Of course, it's a double axle rated at 12,000#. Our truck, a 2019 GMC 2500HD Duramax full of fuel, and loaded for our trip is 8590#. I feel I'm pushing everything to the limit and really disappointed the company misrepresented the product they were selling.

Your RV weighs 13,800 lbs. But, of course, at least 10% of that is on the hitch. That means that the weight on the axles is 13,800-1380=12,420 lbs.

[imjustdave]

Originally Posted by Mexglx

Thanks for the question Chuck. Ultimately, the problem is my GTW is 3,600lbs. This trailer actually weighs 3,480lbs vs the 3,078lbs. I was told. That leaves 120lbs of cargo capacity which is completely insufficient to go camping. I cannot use the RV for its intended purpose of camping. Just loading groceries and luggage takes us over the GTW. We have ~400lbs of camping gear.

Not to be THAT guy ... but I suspect I know where the 402 lb. difference is. from your scale of 3480 VS title info of 3078...

Propane tanks
5 gallon full is about 37-40 lb each
7 Gallon full is about 55 lb Each.
Or 74 - 110 lbs combined

Battery
about 60 lbs

or about 120 assuming you have 2.


I assume your WH was full of water when you scaled it.
50LBs easy... lets call it 60-100 with the water in the lines residual in the tanks... even after you dump you can twist and turn that trailer to get a few more out.
so lets call it 100 just to be fair.

So I have counted 294 - 330 lbs The rest I will assume come down to

Spare tire? Electric jack vs manual, propane cover, battery covers- box. Extra wire used in the build process, debris from the lack of GF while building, extra glue maybe, bedding materials, mattress... yes sometimes those are from the dealer not manufacture. plastic VS porcelain commode, maybe even the extra fridge you spoke of and other items not typical all account for that 402 variation.

I suspect they built 1 basic unit and scaled it out and that is now the weight of every model of that trailer. AKA base unit weight. "you would be hard pressed to even find this on a lot" Every single unit will have the same sticker info and weight listed on it, and on the origin info. YES I do agree every unit should be weighed and have that info on the sticker, Things needed to go camping should be included propane and batteries. and 10 gallons of water if not full.
Unlike a automobile or your engines you sell where everything is built by a machine and computer controlled and tracked, I bet you have info for every engine exact weight to a lb or 2. I suspect the build process alone in a RV/camper will vary in weight, changes in tire selection, wood manufacture, Becky VS Don spraying glue down for the flooring, FOD left inside behind cabinets, Design changes that happen over the years of the build. Even the amount of dicor on the roof, nails - screws used YEs I agree they use the least amount possible but they will vary. and or design changes over the weeks and months.

Do you have a case I suspect you do ONLY because you brought up weight concern while buying it and an honest sales person would have drug it out to a scale and given you real world # VS a paper # they should have know wasn't very accurate and or said look this number is going to be low I would love to sell you this one but it's too big. lets look at this 15 footer.

I know in my area when I have looked at trailers they want details of your tow Vehicle and wont sell you a unit if your under. When I say details I mean they look it up online and get pretty detailed oriented to the point where they will sell you something but if the TV isn't big enough or the one you told them they wont let you leave with it. Sale over basically.

Not sure when you purchased or where or how over priced you paid but RV sales are in high demand you might have better luck just private party selling it or maybe make a deal with the dealer of I need a smaller unit you and FR lied to me, make me whole on this deal and you get a RV sale still I need a smaller one and we both avoid court. I suspect if you give then an easy option out AKA trade units for better sized for you they avoid costs ETC moving forward they would take it. But that might need to come from an attorney letter head as the initial offer to resolve things.
Not an attorney but just ideas in my head. Things can be fixed.

Not saying you should have know the industry is light on weight numbers but everyone in the industry does know.

[Mexglx]

Originally Posted by imjustdave

Not to be THAT guy ... but I suspect I know where the 402 lb. difference is. from your scale of 3480 VS title info of 3078...

No worries...You are NOT that guy. All input welcome. As far as weights of batteries and other items. Dealer says they weigh every unit before they leave the factory. To me that's a dry weight. The battery (1), manual jack, propane tank, all should have been weighed, if they actually weighed it. The sticker outside says that the cargo capacity is determined with the full tank of fresh water and the waste water empty. They erroneously said its 900kg cargo capacity. That's 1,980 #'s. There are so many inconsistencies its just a joke. They relied on this certificate of equipment that they swore was the final say in the matter. A document with sacred properties that is official. It said the trailer weighed 3,078.

I agree there may be a few pounds of water in the water heater after the first trip. Also I also agree that they probably printed stickers to a base spec and then added the adventure package without adding the weight to the sticker and deducting from the available CCC. It will definitely be a fight. Regardless of tow vehicle, this trailer may almost be too heavy for the 3,500# axle the sticker says it was built with. Without being attached to a vehicle, its already over the 3,877 GCWR for the trailer. 440# tongue + 3480 axle weight = 3920#s . We don't count the tongue weight since it is either on the jack or on the hitch. That means if I had a bigger tow vehicle I still could only carry ~400lbs of cargo. The sticker says I can carry 900kg.

Overall, its a big mess. The cargo capacity is insufficient for it to be of any use to me. I can reduce some weight but I paid for some of these accessories and removing them means they should buy those back. They had me take a picture of the sticker on the axle just the other day. Apparently they don't know what they built it with and maybe it has a heavier axle as the 15" tires seem to indicate. Can they just swap axles? Who knows? I appreciate the input regardless.

[bikendan]

Mexglx, just one point. The battery is not part of the dry weight because it's a dealer-installed item. Almost no towables come with a factory-installed battery. Just motorized RVs.

[imjustdave]

Originally Posted by Mexglx

No worries...You are NOT that guy. All input welcome. As far as weights of batteries and other items. Dealer says they weigh every unit before they leave the factory. To me that's a dry weight. The battery (1), manual jack, propane tank, all should have been weighed, if they actually weighed it. The sticker outside says that the cargo capacity is determined with the full tank of fresh water and the waste water empty. They erroneously said its 900kg cargo capacity. That's 1,980 #'s. There are so many inconsistencies its just a joke. They relied on this certificate of equipment that they swore was the final say in the matter. A document with sacred properties that is official. It said the trailer weighed 3,078.

I agree there may be a few pounds of water in the water heater after the first trip. Also I also agree that they probably printed stickers to a base spec and then added the adventure package without adding the weight to the sticker and deducting from the available CCC. It will definitely be a fight. Regardless of tow vehicle, this trailer may almost be too heavy for the 3,500# axle the sticker says it was built with. Without being attached to a vehicle, its already over the 3,877 GCWR for the trailer. 440# tongue + 3480 axle weight = 3920#s . We don't count the tongue weight since it is either on the jack or on the hitch. That means if I had a bigger tow vehicle I still could only carry ~400lbs of cargo. The sticker says I can carry 900kg.

Overall, its a big mess. The cargo capacity is insufficient for it to be of any use to me. I can reduce some weight but I paid for some of these accessories and removing them means they should buy those back. They had me take a picture of the sticker on the axle just the other day. Apparently they don't know what they built it with and maybe it has a heavier axle as the 15" tires seem to indicate. Can they just swap axles? Who knows? I appreciate the input regardless.

Unless someone can show me a photo of them actually weighing each and every unit at the factory, including the weight on the fork lift dragging the unit around I do not believe this line from the sales crew. Just wont, everyone in the industry knows it's just a estimate.
I agree they may have weighed one like it, but if any 2 units are the exact same weight on paper work that alone would be enough for me to call BS.
You should call a few dealers and ask them for the weights .. I bet every single unit in a year is the same weight.


Yeah I agree your numbers are so far off, that it's obvious no one cares at the factory. Only way I see you getting anywhere is a frank conversation at the dealer and maybe with the manufacture.

Just as a FYI I saw a BRAND New 5thwheel at the tire store getting new tires, still had the paper tag in the rear window. Tire guy said the empty scale weight was more then the tires could carry and the owner had already lost 2 tires of the tires... so yeah not a shock your already near max limits.

Wish you luck but suspect cool heads will win out better then court but ... it's going to be an uphill battle.

[Mexglx]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Not only the weight. Did you happen to notice that the tow vehicle limit on frontal area is 40 square feet. That's 5' x 8'. Wonder how close the camper is to that.

Sorry I missed this post Larry-NC. Yes, We took that into account. The frontal area was like 39.7. We thought about the A/C sticking up on the roof. We debated that any portion of the trailer directly behind the van may be subtracted but in the end we decided to count it all. Also we have a roof top carrier that helps split the air over he top and around the trailer a little but still we thought we should count it all. I didn't count the tires in the frontal area. Lastly, my target cruise speed is 60 mph to reduce the affects of aero drag. I know after 55 mph, aero surpasses rolling resistance as the #1 drag. Every 1 mph over 55 mph is 1% loss in fuel economy.

[Mexglx]

Originally Posted by imjustdave

Tire guy said the empty scale weight was more then the tires could carry and the owner had already lost 2 tires of the tires... so yeah not a shock your already near max limits. :

: That is crazy. Thanks for that. Trying to have a cool head. I want to be the squeaky wheel. Hopefully they will find a solution.