DX3 Lithium - Drop in?

[WanderingPhoto]

Hi All - As I continue my investigation into battery options, I'm starting to lean more towards Lithium. The Battleborn and Lifeblue (with battery heater) options are looking more and more appealing. I love the idea of true "drop in" options that don't require changing out charger, adding battery monitor, or even installation location (and yes, I know that last point has some limitations).

Question - has anyone truly just "dropped in" the LifeBlue or Battleborn batteries into their DX3 (or similar) using their existing Xantrex charger/inverter without any other changes? When I have asked for quotes on a previous coach (Airstream interstate), the installer recommended substantial changes to the charging systems.

Thanks for any input!

[nayther]

the converter needs to be Lithium capable as I understand it. LiPo charge different than lead acid. I replaced my converter and opted for on rated for LiPo as well as lead acid and the Renogy charge controller I just installed is LiPo rated, just have to tell it you have them.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by nayther

the converter needs to be Lithium capable as I understand it. LiPo charge different than lead acid. I replaced my converter and opted for on rated for LiPo as well as lead acid and the Renogy charge controller I just installed is LiPo rated, just have to tell it you have them.

According to Battleborn Techs it's not required that the converter be changed to a Lithium unit.

The only downside is that the batteries willl only be charged to either the bulk or absorbtion voltage of your converter's charge section's programming. You will loose some capacity but only a relatively small amount compared to what you gain in charge speed and more usable power.

Depending on the converter, it may be possible to overcome this. For example, the Progressive Dynamic's 9100/9200 series with Charge Wizard Pendant can be forced into the higher Bulk charge rate. You just have to push the button.

With a Progressive Dynamics 9100 series a TMS Module that converts the charge section to continuous 14.6 volt output is available for ~$20 or less from PD.

Other manufacturers may have similar "conversions" available as the LiFePo batteries gain in popularity.

Back to the original question, when I converted to Battleborns I just installed them and they worked just fine. I took it to new levels with a different Converter specifically for the Lithium's because I felt like it, not because it was really required.

As for the Battery Monitor, I already had one..

A note on battery monitors. If you plan on relying on the factory installed "LED Tree", it will almost always show "Charging" or "Full" with the Lithiums. This is because their resting voltage is over 13 volts until they are almost fully discharged. To really know what the State of Charge is on a Lithium battery you really need a Battery Monitor that measures current in and current out rather than just voltage. A lot of Lithium batteries for smaller consumer goods often have a "Fuel Gauge" built in and maybe more 'Smart Lithium" batteries will start including something similar. I believe some now have built in Bluetooth monitoring and that certainly is a benefit.

As for the Lifeblue heated batteries I see them only as an option for those who HAVE to install them on the tongue of their TT and camp in sub freezing temperatures. The energy to heat the battery will come from the battery itself thus reducing the amount of power you will have available, depending on how cold and how much heating is required I chose to install my Battleborn's in a heated compartment both to protect from extreme cold, for security, and to move weight off my tongue. Compartment was too small to be useful for much else anyway and now all my electrical gear (batteries, Inverter, DC-DC charger so I can charge from tow vehicle, and solar controller, all have a nice accessible home. I also have more power available for the furnace in cold weather to keep ME warm

[TrailWayz]

When I inquired with Battle Born they also recommended an Easy Start soft starter to help reduce the initial current draw on the battery bank, if we plan to run the air conditioner with the batteries. Has anyone installed this and has there been issues if not?

They also cautioned, for my Isata 5, if the 2 220-amp alternators are charging the batteries to make sure the charge rate does not exceed 50 amps per battery or 200-amps total. If alternators are sending too much current, they suggest installing a device that would help to regulate the current to allow proper charging and a duty cycle for the alternators to cool off between cycles.

I have found the folks at BB to be very responsive but we have yet to take delivery of our 2020 MH, so we have not purchased yet.

[bclemens]

^^THIS^^^ I went out and bought a Victron with BT for the 28SS demo so that I can get a real world test. MOST RV battery monitors determine state of charge by voltage. A Lithium will show 12.8v until its about 2 hours from dying (I am over simplifying...but not by much). (The colder it is, the more the voltage will drop steadily over that power curve)

So I bought the Victron with shunt so I can do some real world testing using their BT app which measures current in/out.

Until the multiplex guys come up with their own way to determine SOC, we will have to reply on the BT app of the battery. Which is why we have chosen Relion. Not only do they have a heater built in, BUT, smart phone app, LED light on the battery that shows SOC AND CANbus communication which Firefly can easily tap into and add natively into their software.

Now, we just need some cold weather.

Also agree that a Lithium dedicated charger is not necessary as the batteries have built in logic. I know our Firefly set up you can pick your battery profile, or do CUSTOM. Custom allows the charge voltage to be set at 14.4 (which is what we set fo the 28SS). The only disadvantage of not having a lithium specific charger/inverter is that you aren't pushing as much power as you "could" be.

[FOURWHL]

Glad to hear you're testing out the victron stuff! After a couple months of heavy usage I'm in love with it. The bluetooth interface is as foolproof of one as I've seen anywhere. Interested to hear what you find.

[CSWVK]

We also have the Victron with bluetooth installed for over a year and it is really a great tool when boondockind.Would like to go to lithium but need to wear out the AGMs first. The Victron is allowing us to extend their life by not over discharging them.

[WanderingPhoto]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

According to Battleborn Techs it's not required that the converter be changed to a Lithium unit.

The only downside is that the batteries willl only be charged to either the bulk or absorbtion voltage of your converter's charge section's programming. You will loose some capacity but only a relatively small amount compared to what you gain in charge speed and more usable power.

Depending on the converter, it may be possible to overcome this. For example, the Progressive Dynamic's 9100/9200 series with Charge Wizard Pendant can be forced into the higher Bulk charge rate. You just have to push the button.

With a Progressive Dynamics 9100 series a TMS Module that converts the charge section to continuous 14.6 volt output is available for ~$20 or less from PD.

Other manufacturers may have similar "conversions" available as the LiFePo batteries gain in popularity.

Back to the original question, when I converted to Battleborns I just installed them and they worked just fine. I took it to new levels with a different Converter specifically for the Lithium's because I felt like it, not because it was really required.

As for the Battery Monitor, I already had one..

A note on battery monitors. If you plan on relying on the factory installed "LED Tree", it will almost always show "Charging" or "Full" with the Lithiums. This is because their resting voltage is over 13 volts until they are almost fully discharged. To really know what the State of Charge is on a Lithium battery you really need a Battery Monitor that measures current in and current out rather than just voltage. A lot of Lithium batteries for smaller consumer goods often have a "Fuel Gauge" built in and maybe more 'Smart Lithium" batteries will start including something similar. I believe some now have built in Bluetooth monitoring and that certainly is a benefit.

As for the Lifeblue heated batteries I see them only as an option for those who HAVE to install them on the tongue of their TT and camp in sub freezing temperatures. The energy to heat the battery will come from the battery itself thus reducing the amount of power you will have available, depending on how cold and how much heating is required I chose to install my Battleborn's in a heated compartment both to protect from extreme cold, for security, and to move weight off my tongue. Compartment was too small to be useful for much else anyway and now all my electrical gear (batteries, Inverter, DC-DC charger so I can charge from tow vehicle, and solar controller, all have a nice accessible home. I also have more power available for the furnace in cold weather to keep ME warm

Awesome. Thank you! I may install the batteries in their existing location to start. As for heating the batteries, given its primarily an issue while charging, since I would definitionally have other power source available...I feel like I'm missing something on why thats an issue? Are you concerned about the energy its using to keep the battery warm when discharging as well (Which I agree would be a concern)?

[WanderingPhoto]

Originally Posted by bclemens

^^THIS^^^ I went out and bought a Victron with BT for the 28SS demo so that I can get a real world test. MOST RV battery monitors determine state of charge by voltage. A Lithium will show 12.8v until its about 2 hours from dying (I am over simplifying...but not by much). (The colder it is, the more the voltage will drop steadily over that power curve)

So I bought the Victron with shunt so I can do some real world testing using their BT app which measures current in/out.

Until the multiplex guys come up with their own way to determine SOC, we will have to reply on the BT app of the battery. Which is why we have chosen Relion. Not only do they have a heater built in, BUT, smart phone app, LED light on the battery that shows SOC AND CANbus communication which Firefly can easily tap into and add natively into their software.

Now, we just need some cold weather.

Also agree that a Lithium dedicated charger is not necessary as the batteries have built in logic. I know our Firefly set up you can pick your battery profile, or do CUSTOM. Custom allows the charge voltage to be set at 14.4 (which is what we set fo the 28SS). The only disadvantage of not having a lithium specific charger/inverter is that you aren't pushing as much power as you "could" be.

Thanks Brian. Did you do anything to protect against overcharging from the alternator? Or is that necessary on the M2 chassis as you have them setup (I'm on a 2018 DX3)?

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by WanderingPhoto

Awesome. Thank you! I may install the batteries in their existing location to start. As for heating the batteries, given its primarily an issue while charging, since I would definitionally have other power source available...I feel like I'm missing something on why thats an issue? Are you concerned about the energy its using to keep the battery warm when discharging as well (Which I agree would be a concern)?

I boondock most of the time. I rarely have shore power available but do have solar and a generator. I figured that consuming energy while attempting to charge my batteries was more wasteful than I wanted to be.

I realize my setup is different than yours and my reason for moving the batteries inside was both for security and weight reduction/shift as well as keeping them warm. Nice thing about the LiFePo batteries is that they can be mounted just about anywhere. No venting required and there is no real "UP" on them. Put them on their sides, ends, or any combination that makes them fit. I saw one installation where this kind of battery was installed in the bottom of a closet and other members here have them installed under beds/bunks. Once the terminals have been properly connected and tightened down they literally require no maintenance.

FWIW, the BMS in the Battleborn's (and perhaps others) will not allow the batteries to charge if they are too cold. Unless one is in round the clock freezing temps the batteries will charge once their temp has risen to a safe temp.

As always, whether or not something like battery heat is needed depends on individual requirements.

[bclemens]

Originally Posted by WanderingPhoto

Thanks Brian. Did you do anything to protect against overcharging from the alternator? Or is that necessary on the M2 chassis as you have them setup (I'm on a 2018 DX3)?

My setup is on a 28SS Isata 5 and the batteries have a built in battery control module. They'll cut off power when they need to cut off power

[LandKKnight]

following, want to switch to Lithium when the AGMs are done.

[Barch]

X2

[WanderingPhoto]

I am likely going to order the LifeBlue low temperature batteries this weekend. I called them Monday with a few questions and they were AMAZING. A knowledgable person answered the phone and was able to answer every question I had (with confidence). So I obviously have no idea how they work, but they have some compelling features (bluetooth monitoring) and are fairly priced.

He did recommend I do something to protect the batteries from the elements. He said its not required but recommended.

Has anyone tried to seal the battery compartment? Maybe some protective components around the batteries? Any reason not to (ex: Coach Batteries)?

[DieselBurn]

“I am likely going to order the LifeBlue low temperature batteries this weekend. I called them Monday with a few questions and they were AMAZING.”

Which model/size did you go with on your DX3?Thanks

[Rumline]

On another forum I've read about another person who converted to lithium and he said that he's had issues with the charger overheating and shutting off because not enough air was getting in to cool it down. He had to derate the charger to something like 20% current which obviously negates one major benefit of lithium batteries: charging quickly. I guess the lithiums are capable of such high currents both charging and discharging that all the electronics are feeling the heat.

I'm not sure what make/model of motorhome he has or where his electronics are located relative to the batteries (separate sealed storage compartment vs vented etc) but it made me think that if I were to do this, I may want some sort of removable seal that I can install for cold weather and remove for warm weather.

[WanderingPhoto]

Originally Posted by Rumline

On another forum I've read about another person who converted to lithium and he said that he's had issues with the charger overheating and shutting off because not enough air was getting in to cool it down. He had to derate the charger to something like 20% current which obviously negates one major benefit of lithium batteries: charging quickly. I guess the lithiums are capable of such high currents both charging and discharging that all the electronics are feeling the heat.

I'm not sure what make/model of motorhome he has or where his electronics are located relative to the batteries (separate sealed storage compartment vs vented etc) but it made me think that if I were to do this, I may want some sort of removable seal that I can install for cold weather and remove for warm weather.

Interesting. On the heat issue, I'm not surprised. I have wondered that about the sealed storage area. However, obviously not an issue on AGM's. I guess if this happens, I'll swap out when the time comes or at least start with some sort of vent. Seems like you could use one of the "screw in" type ports like for the water and electrical compartments. Maybe even put a small fan in there.

LifeBlue provides the charger settings for most common chargers so I'm hoping they can provide the right settings to make this work as well as possible. We'll see!

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Rumline

On another forum I've read about another person who converted to lithium and he said that he's had issues with the charger overheating and shutting off because not enough air was getting in to cool it down. He had to derate the charger to something like 20% current which obviously negates one major benefit of lithium batteries: charging quickly. I guess the lithiums are capable of such high currents both charging and discharging that all the electronics are feeling the heat.

I'm not sure what make/model of motorhome he has or where his electronics are located relative to the batteries (separate sealed storage compartment vs vented etc) but it made me think that if I were to do this, I may want some sort of removable seal that I can install for cold weather and remove for warm weather.

I would say that the charger issues are due to where the charger is installed. Deep in the installation instruction and operation instructions for Converter/Chargers is a notice that they need adequate air circulation. I certainly wouldn't install a Converter in a sealed compartment unless it had supplemental ventilation for cooling the converter.

As for the Lithium batteries, mine generate little if any heat while being charged, even with 55-60 amp flowing into them for 2-3 hours.

Converter, on the other hand is dissipating heat from approximately 700-800 watts while running at 'full charge'. Heat exhausting from the vents is noticeable and certainly would trigger a shut down if air flow was restricted.