FIRE BIRD Behind Pantry Cabinet REV24RB

[ProfChuck]

Originally Posted by bclemens

Great memories for everyone but the duck

Yeah, he was a little "fried" about the whole thing!

[Delco Bobby]

Poor OP gets his RV damaged and we joke about a roasted duck that got his feathers ruffled in an unrelated fire. Did anyone check the chimney for duck eggs?

[bclemens]

and now AWOL.

[Delco Bobby]

I didn’t look yet but am wondering if a mechanic could access the BIRD (not the duck �� ) via the lower refrigerator vent.

[disoswam]

I agree I still don't know enough about what caused this. I'm not sure the BIRD started the fire but only BIRD had flame when I pulled the drawers. The BIRD gets 12V power thru 5A fuse from coach battery and 5A fuse from chassis battery. The 5A coach fuse was OK and Dynamax never installed the 5A chassis fuse. Is 5A enough to light an epoxy potted assembly? In the panel only 15A refer breaker was tripped and no fuses were blown. I didn't have refrigerator on so why did refer breaker trip? There is yellow 12-2 Romex dangling slap up against the BIRD connector terminals with totally charred insulation which may be A/C or micro 20A breaker which didn't trip.

I noticed Dynamax never put a 5A fuse on the chassis battery side of the KIP LR9806 solenoid the BIRD controls. That may be why the chassis alternator never charged the coach battery. I called KIP and he said the right fuse should be 7.5A not 5A but there is no documentation stating that. He also agreed since the fuse is missing the BIRD will never close the solenoid to charge the coach battery from the chassis alternator. When I asked Dynamax for circuit diagram they said they don't have one call KIP about the BIRD and KIP said they don't have circuit diagram they only supply parts to Dynamax and Dynamax needs to give me their circuit diagram.

When I was crawling under tracing wires I noticed a red fat wire, maybe #4, in elephant hose running up toward the front of the chassis which I thought may go to the chassis battery? It was strapped alongside another elephant hose which had red and black fat wires, maybe #2, which connected to the coach battery and another elephant hose with red #4 which connected also to coach battery.

Since Dynamax doesn't have any circuit diagram for the REV I have been trying to draw my own but it is hard to trace wires. I admit this isn't wiring for 737Max but it seems a circuit diagram would help the electrician know how to wire it?

Progressive said they will pay for fire damage but not replace defective part that caused fire so maybe Progressive will determine which part caused it? Camping World said they don't have wiring diagram and whenever they ask any manufacturer they can almost never get one so I'm not alone.

My last Firebird was '82 TransAm. The next day my daughter was born and I found out you can't install car seat rear facing in rear seat so Angie road up front and my wife in back. Time to trade for a station wagon which could also pull 31' Airstream. I remembered the song I was trying to think of, Surfin' Bird, The Trashmen
A-well-a ev'rybody's heard about the bird
B-b-b-bird, b-birdd's a word
A-well-a everybody's heard about the bird
Bird, bird, bird, b-bird's a word
A-well, a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's a word
A-well, a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's a word

[Delco Bobby]

Originally Posted by disoswam

.

My last Firebird was '82 TransAm. The next day my daughter was born and I found out you can't install car seat rear facing in rear seat so Angie road up front and my wife in back. Time to trade for a station wagon which could also pull 31' Airstream. I remembered the song I was trying to think of, Surfin' Bird, The Trashmen
A-well-a ev'rybody's heard about the bird
B-b-b-bird, b-birdd's a word
A-well-a everybody's heard about the bird
Bird, bird, bird, b-bird's a word
A-well, a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's a word
A-well, a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's a word

So the truth comes out. You had a TransAm so we can’t joke about that major loss either.

Now I have that song constantly playing in my head.

It seems you are a good investigator.

Please keep us informed.

[bclemens]

This is all I've got...its for the 2016

[bclemens]

You never mentioned what you were plugged into? My notes say household outlet...but what was the method of connection? length of run?

[disoswam]

Thanks for the help. The loom is nice but doesn't show fat wires and BIRD wires. I was looking more for functional electrical diagram showing BIRD, solenoids, breakers, fuses, switches, connectors, chassis interface, and how it all works together. Even something with pictures like D02500021_ISATA 5 ELECTRICAL COMP INFO 2015 THRU 2018.pdf.

I had 30A outlet, 50' of 12-2, 20A breaker in 200A panel. Technically not 30A circuit but 12-2 wire protected with 20A breaker and never used >15A at home. I understand The REV panel has 4*15A+2*20A=100A but I never used all 100A or even 30A when camping. I never understood why you were interested in 110V when it seemed like a 12V issue but when I noticed refer was the only breaker tripped and no 12V fuse blew not even the 5A BIRD fuse maybe we just need to see what everything looks like before blaming the BIRD.

[disoswam]

Insurance adjuster and Camping World determined cause of fire was KIB BIRD909 Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay module. They tore out refrigerator and back panel of pantry to access electrical panel wiring. The BIRD flame charred plywood electrical panel and Romex AC wires. They said all DC wires are OK because they were not close enough to the BIRD to be damaged by the flame. Repair estimate is $1300 parts and $3300 labor which will be higher after testing and shipping. They plan to replace WFCO power center, converter, transfer switch, relays, gen start controller, and all relays, breakers, contactors, and 5' of 8 Romex wires. The Romex is charred and the reason to replace all electrical parts is smoke and fire extinguisher dust may affect electrical parts.

The service electrician said I did a good job pulling pantry drawers and putting out fire so quickly before it could do more damage.

[bclemens]

Originally Posted by disoswam

Insurance adjuster and Camping World determined cause of fire was KIB BIRD909 Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay module. They tore out refrigerator and back panel of pantry to access electrical panel wiring. The BIRD flame charred plywood electrical panel and Romex AC wires. They said all DC wires are OK because they were not close enough to the BIRD to be damaged by the flame. Repair estimate is $1300 parts and $3300 labor which will be higher after testing and shipping. They plan to replace WFCO power center, converter, transfer switch, relays, gen start controller, and all relays, breakers, contactors, and 5' of 8 Romex wires. The Romex is charred and the reason to replace all electrical parts is smoke and fire extinguisher dust may affect electrical parts.

The service electrician said I did a good job pulling pantry drawers and putting out fire so quickly before it could do more damage.

Typically the first finding is "here is the charred spot". An actual investigation will likely be done if insurance tries to make that claim.

Interesting that no DC wires were damaged, because the BIRD is a DC fixture. Has nothing to do with romex...so 12V wires should be closer than romex wires...in fact terminating on the board.

[disoswam]

[van_fl]

With about 40 years of failure investigation, a quick look I will bet you a $1.00 that the 120ac line shorted to the ground on the bird unit,due to poor routing of the 120 ac line. Vibration will brake down any wire insulation touching a post in time.

[disoswam]

I thought about that too when I saw the loose Romex touching the BIRD wires but when I looked at it it seemed the Romex char was above the terminal and the BIRD terminal and wire insulation was still good. Romex was gently supported by flexible DC wires. I didn't get good pictures to show that but these taken before anything was touched may help.

[disoswam]

KIB emailed me a BIRD909 sales flyer which said the circuit MUST have 5A MAX fuses. So far I found a 50A fuse on the coach battery and 50A fuse on chassis battery but I didn't find the 5A MAX fuses on the wires going to the BIRD909. I wonder if a 5A fuse would have prevented the BIRD fire?

[disoswam]

As I go wiring the new WFCO power center I have been checking and tracing all the wiring. I noticed the switch panel has a dozen or so small jumper wires that look like 24ga or smaller. I wonder if this is OK when everything is on 15 or 20 amp fuses. The rule of thumb for 24ga is 3 amps max and it is fused for 15A = 5 x 3A. I wonder if I should up size all the 24ga wires to at least 16 or 18 for fire safety. It seems like they would have used the same wire 16 gage not drop down to 24ga for the last 8" to the switch? I don't understand.

[Kirk S]

I'm curious.
I don't see any mention in the thread about whether your 30 amp receptacle was on a single or double pole 20 amp breaker.

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by disoswam

KIB emailed me a BIRD909 sales flyer which said the circuit MUST have 5A MAX fuses. So far I found a 50A fuse on the coach battery and 50A fuse on chassis battery but I didn't find the 5A MAX fuses on the wires going to the BIRD909. I wonder if a 5A fuse would have prevented the BIRD fire?

Attachment 215440

Aren't the 5A fuses in the component shown in Pic #4 in post 32? Where the fuse on the right is missing?? Seems to match the diagram in post 35.

[disoswam]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

Aren't the 5A fuses in the component shown in Pic #4 in post 32? Where the fuse on the right is missing?? Seems to match the diagram in post 35.

Sorry, pic#4 is coach batt disconnect solenoid and it has one 5A fuse. The charge solenoid in pic#3 next to burnt BIRD is controlled by the BIRD. There are no 5A fuses in the BIRD circuit. The BIRD has 16awg red wire direct to the coach battery post on 50A fuse and 16awg yellow wire direct to Dodge RAM chassis ignition. I installed Intellitec BIRD instead of KIB BIRD909. Do you think I don't need 5A fuses now since Intellitec doesn't show them on their installation diagram? Or do you think all wires on an RV should be protected by right size fuses?

[disoswam]

Even though Intellitec didn't show 5A fuses in their BIRD wiring diagram they did say, "Note: The BI-DIRECTIONAL ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY controls the Isolator Relay which is connected directly to the chassis and coach batteries. Power from both the batteries is fed into the module. The full power of the battery may be available at this module. Inadvertent shorts at this box could result in damage and/or injury." OK maybe fuses to protect the BIRD and it's little wires would be nice?