Firefly Level Readings

[MevetS]

I've read through the
https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...es-255811.html



Other than the blue line under the gauge, on the Firefly display, how can the potential causes of faulty readings, be identified ?


Ours tend to be mostly accurate, but on occassion, they stop updating. Currently, our Fresh Water and Grey tank have the blue line under the tank indicator. The readings on those tanks have been stuck there for a couple of days. We filled up the Fresh Water tank at about that time to about 80%, as we are in a State campground without water at each site. The Grey tank has been stuck at 20%. The Black tank appears to be reading correctly, as it has been slowly increasing it's level reading, as would be anticipated.

The one commonality between the Fresh and Grey tank readings appears to be that they both started acting up around the time that we filled the Fresh tank.


Since those tanks are in different locations, but all are near the rear axle, that might suggest that there is some axle loading component to the reading errors.

Any aid in understanding and diagnosing the issue would be appreciated.

[vlamgat]

What's your model/year?

Have you looked at your G12 connections? They sometimes get a Aluminum oxide coating and dont make a good contact. Treat them with DeOxit.

Similarly your harness connectors close to the detectors.

Have you checked your S/N numbers on the diagnostic screen of the Firefly? See the Firefly web site for access.

Sometimes they fail but that's quite unusual.

[bclemens]

The key is understanding how they work. I think I have a long thread on where somewhere, but I can summarize just as quick as searching.

They are sonar. A small white disk extends into the tank on an arm. It directs a signal to the surface of the water. So there are two times it cannot read.

1. When it is empty. There is no surface to bounce off of. In that case it would normally remember it's state, unless you cut 12V power and then it would default to "worst case". Full in the case of gray/black, empty in the case of fresh.

2. When it is FULL. Again, same scenario, it would remember where it was during the fill/empty process unless power was cut when it was empty or full and so it would default to worst case logically speaking.

Because the signal is a little more complex than "resistance" it can have interference, that is why we use a twisted, shielded pair. So sometimes, a specific electrical scenario may temporarily cause an issue. Loose pins could, if you are not level it could also cause some bad readings as the sonar does not bounce back to the origin.

A 12V cycle might correct the issue. There is also the J17 plug on the G12 for the RTC (real time clock). The chip that is being powered by that plug is the one that keeps the memory of the tank levels. A cycle of that might correct it as well.

[vlamgat]

Originally Posted by bclemens

A 12V cycle might correct the issue. There is also the J17 plug on the G12 for the RTC (real time clock). The chip that is being powered by that plug is the one that keeps the memory of the tank levels. A cycle of that might correct it as well.

The G12 can be a PITA to access so a full power cycle with the time delay after complete disconnection to discharge the residual power on the chips can achieve the same effect as the clock cycle. Only problem with it is that you have to power up again before you can see whether the level(s) are now in keeping with your expectations whereas when you cycle the clock power, the results are almost immediate.

[bclemens]

Originally Posted by vlamgat

The G12 can be a PITA to access so a full power cycle with the time delay after complete disconnection to discharge the residual power on the chips can achieve the same effect as the clock cycle. Only problem with it is that you have to power up again before you can see whether the level(s) are now in keeping with your expectations whereas when you cycle the clock power, the results are almost immediate.

It depends on model. The 28SS is the hardest...I have asked them to move it. The other models range from pretty easy to somewhat easy.

It can also be accomplished with pulling the fuse in the electrical bay.

[MevetS]

I included the link with the details about the sensors operation, as discussed in the past.



I will attempt the power cycling later today. I will dump the fresh tank later this morning.


p.s. my Coach model and year are in Red, as part of my signature.

[MevetS]

Power cycled the 12V at the Entry Door. No effect on readings. It's not a immediate problem other than we our out in the wilds of the UP, in Michigan. Actually in Wisconsin, now. Just west of the Porkies. Barely a trickle of Internet.

But it would be nice to have some indication of what our tanks may be at. Both were dumped before we left, yesterday morning. The Grey tank is currently reading Full while about 10 mins ago it was at 20%.



Maybe it's time to return to dip sticks. Or perhaps to call the Navy and have them evaluate the sonar pings?

[bclemens]

Originally Posted by MevetS

Power cycled the 12V at the Entry Door. No effect on readings. It's not a immediate problem other than we our out in the wilds of the UP, in Michigan. Actually in Wisconsin, now. Just west of the Porkies. Barely a trickle of Internet.

But it would be nice to have some indication of what our tanks may be at. Both were dumped before we left, yesterday morning. The Grey tank is currently reading Full while about 10 mins ago it was at 20%.



Maybe it's time to return to dip sticks. Or perhaps to call the Navy and have them evaluate the sonar pings?

If the gray tank is empty...as mentioned, it will read full if 12V power was lost until water is up over the sensor which is about 3" from the bottom.

To reset it all, it you would have to pull the J17 pin and power cycle at the battery disconnect, not the door.

[vlamgat]

As Brian wrote. Or power cycle at the main power bay battery disconnect AND disconnect from shore power for a minute. Then repower in reverse. You can also pull the Firefly fuse as I recently learned. The door switch does not power down the G12 and it's clock.

[MevetS]

I'll try that as well. After a couple of showers it's now reading 30%. It seems to need a lot of TLC. But all 3 tanks seem to intermittently show the blue line in unison. Then they may, or may not, individually go away. But still mainly Fresh water and Grey tanks are most likely stay On.

[M_I_A]

Reported problems with the Tru Tank sensors by Firefly continue across many brands. My own experience is no different. After many months working with the manufacturer (Firefly Integrations), I am no better off. I won't bore you with all that they had me do but they initially said it was a bad sensor then back tracked and said it was something else. The conversation ended when they said I would have to go to Dynamax and have them look at all the wiring. I'm not convinced that the wiring is problematic. Anyhoo, I gave up on it and installed SeeLevel II and it has been working for me.

As a side note, does anybody want to start a poll comparing favorability of integrated/networked controls for RV systems (FireFly, Silverleaf, Precision Plex) versus separate (old school) switches for all systems? I am in the latter camp. The notion of "One Board To Rule Them All" is not what I consider a good thing.

[bclemens]

We engage in that conversation quite frequently. Weighing the wants and needs of the consumer with complexity and simplicity.

We can change our cars to manual crank windows, and I guaranty you will never have a power window motor failure, but how many people would actually buy that model?

That is a very simplistic comparison, but it holds true. We did not choose multiplex because we wanted it, we chose it due to consumers requesting in.

I actually asked for an LED lit window for holding tanks and someone laughed, then stopped and asked "are you serious" and I said yes. For 20 years i have listened to people complain that their tank sensors are not reliable. And for 20 years we keep changing to the next best thing, only to hear the same complaints for different reasons.

I've used the See Level and have had issues with those. Sonar, AC penetrating sensors, standard probes, horst probes, Tru tank. I hope someday to have a tank sensor that is never wrong.

[M_I_A]

"I've used the See Level and have had issues with those. Sonar, AC penetrating sensors, standard probes, horst probes, Tru tank. I hope someday to have a tank sensor that is never wrong." - bclemens

In all your experience, which tank system has proven to be the least problematic and if you could get your way, what would be in your coach?

If it were me I would put a sight glass on the side of each tank.

I'm with you on balancing consumer wants, but one must be careful as your brand reputation is only as good as your least reputable supplier.

[bclemens]

I might consider just regular probes. I actually don't personally have a ton of issues with tank sensors. If I have hook ups, I just dump frequently...I may never even look at my tank levels. I know that after a shower or two from my wife, I might as well dump. I guess I am never at a point where I am ever pushing the capacities.

If I am boondocking, again, I have a rough idea in my head based on showers and/or toilets. I can look at the fresh water tank and figure how much is there. If the gray is getting full...it starts to drain slow. I know its time to dump. Black can get a little trickier. I guess I treat it like a fuel gauge....close is fine, I never try to push it.

As for suppliers, we vet every one of them. We test components before we ever choose a supplier....but no amount of testing prepares you for every scenario, or when suppliers make changes.

With all of the resources of major automotive, they still have recalls and failures. You just hope that most things are nuisance rather than safety.

[MevetS]

Hopefully, the level sensors will never lead to a unintentional bidet. But they can definitely be a nuisance, especially with a new coach that you have little experience with.
I tend to be on the KISS side of things. I was kidding about the oil dip stick, but what could be simpler? Autos still have them, even if they are more of a backup for the sensors.

Anyway, turned the power swithes both to OFF waited and everything came up roses. This morning, all's back to normal. Both the Fresh water and Grey tank have the blue lines. Our Fresh tank is presently, if not empty, then well below where the sensor might be reading anything. So not concerned with that tank reading. The Grey is the one that I'd love to gain some confidence in, so we could develope a sense for how much water we can anticipate using before we need to dump.

We're in the UP of Michigan, along the Southern coast of Superior. We have been staying in State Parks, which is normally our preference. Most of the State Parks up here are not as developed as they are in the "Mitten". So sewer at the site is typically not available. Up here, you're lucky to get water. Electric, of some sort, is typically available.

We also had the Sealevel system on our previous coach. A class A with the standard light level indicators. I installed the Sealevel system. Took some time taping the sensors on the tanks, with painters tape, to determine the locations that best optimized readings. Yes, you have to find loacations that are clear of any metal structure and keep the sensors from being too close to the tank edges. But with time I had a pretty reliable system. I then taped the sensors directly to the tanks.

No the Sealevel system is not perfect. Perfection would be a difficult goal with level sensors. And I did not have the coach long enough after I installed the Sealevel system, to be able to comment on reliability. But it definitely helped in determining the tank level without constantly wondering what the tank level really was.

Even the typically idiot light system is usually pretty reliable in that respect. Of course, as we all know, but that's only true until it isn't.

We all, probably, like the idea of a more accurate and reliable reading of our tank levels and understand that new systems can be problematic and unreliable. Problematic would usually mean, as the old saying used to go .... put more men on the job. After all, problems reflect on the name that's on the product. Perhaps, some people don't like to hear that, but it's true.

Other than cost, one of the major reason we went with the Force over the "all Electric" was because it wasn't "all Electric" and still had propane. Those systems have been in service for a long time and have a reasonable reliability history.

Not so, for example, with the AquaHot systems that we had been reading about while we were researching new coaches for about 3 years on numerous forums. The impression received was that it was not a reliable system and high maintenance costs did not yield a effective solution. It had some great benefits, in the hydronic heating of the coach. But that did not seem to be enough for us to consider it in a new coach.

Maybe, it just tells me that a Sealevel system should be considered for our unit.

It is difficult to compare the RV Industry to the Automotive Industry. You might have to consider Mean Time Between Failure for every component, unless you are building a Yugo (if anyone still remembers them). Or even a Hyundai when they 1st came to this country. Hyundai extended a great effort to improve their original offerings and resolved their reliability issues. They frequently had Engineers traveling to Dealership Service Centers to evaluate problems and solutions. Sometimes it took a concerted effort between the Manufacturer and the Supplier to get things resolved. Of Course, even Forest River likely doesn't have the clout of Hyundai that is largely vertically integrated and is involved in just about any industry.

[vlamgat]

This thread is going down the ISO 9000 road which seemingly is one not adaptable (except at huge cost) to the RV industry. But that's what is being implicitly suggested here by MTBF, TSO and Certification proposals.

[bclemens]

I actually took a company through ISO9000 certification. There is nothing in there that can't be done, or we are not doing already to a certain extent. The only thing we would miss out on is the certification.

We're already working on a more sophisticated, tablet based QC program. We would be ditching the pencil and paper. Allows better data collection as well as dialing up the complexity of the "pass/fail" scenario.

[vlamgat]

Yes indeed the Pass/Fail criteria and the discipline of a digital data capture paradigm to create a statistical compliance analysis can be humbling. My experience with 9001/3 is that unless your suppliers are able/willing to comply with the data capture process so that you can match that with your product capture in shipper, dealer and customer hands, it is difficult to meet the ISO audit requirements. But even without those, the same needs must be met for the effort and cost to deliver. Challenging stuff.

[MevetS]

Originally Posted by vlamgat

This thread is going down the ISO 9000 road which seemingly is one not adaptable (except at huge cost) to the RV industry. But that's what is being implicitly suggested here by MTBF, TSO and Certification proposals.

No, actually.


What is being suggested is that there are tools available that would be adaptable to any business. There is no such thing as not adaptable, unless you accept current practices as SOP that can't be improved.


If you prefer to not advance in your manufacturing processes, then I understand being complacent.


Unfortunately, over the past 20+ years many companies reverted back to the manufacturing practices that were in place prior to ISO, and even earlier Customer focused improvement practices. MTBF exsisted long before ISO. Many people were just not aware of it. ISO merely codified many, at that time, well known practices. That at some companies were already in place.

[MevetS]

Originally Posted by bclemens

I actually took a company through ISO9000 certification. There is nothing in there that can't be done, or we are not doing already to a certain extent. The only thing we would miss out on is the certification.

We're already working on a more sophisticated, tablet based QC program. We would be ditching the pencil and paper. Allows better data collection as well as dialing up the complexity of the "pass/fail" scenario.

Kudos on the sophisticated data collection. That should help tremendously in highlighting problem areas. I don't see certification as the ultimate goal. Although, years ago many companies demanded vendor certification.


To some extent, certification may be a hammer to be held over the vendors head.