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Old 07-23-2021, 10:41 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by The2002Wanderer View Post
Last month in IDAHO we had a catastrophic wheel failure in our 2020 Isata 3. While driving on I-90 both dual wheels on the driver's side came off without warning: just a big boom and then scary as hell until I regained control of the RV and navigated to the shoulder. Both dual wheels off of studs and tucked up into wheel well; I was driving on the disc brake and the steel plate of the leveling jack. No sign of lug nuts anywhere and no shimmy or vibration indicating pending loss of wheels before incident. All wheels had been changed and torqued about 5000 miles earlier by reputable local tire shop. Damage = 2 tires and rims destroyed; wheel hub needed replacement; RV body side at back of wheel well/generator access door pushed out, etc. Side Note, after incident we discovered Continental Fourseason Vanco tire had sidewall separation - second time we've had sidewall failure with these tires!

Good news is we were all safe (watch those Youtube videos on how to recover from a catastrophic blowout!). Bad News: (1) Forest River/SafeRideRV Motor Club Emergency roadside assistance not able to provide tow; (2) MBS took a week to deliver new steel wheel, wheel flange and lug nuts; (3) MBS only supplied one replacement wheel after two were ordered. I still need to find a replacement Alcoa wheel.

In over 50 years of driving I've never lost a wheel like this. Has anyone else had an unexplained wheel failure similar to this on their Sprinter?

Are the new wheels tha same style as the OE wheels? Possibly different lug nut design. The re-torquing comments are correct.


Also tire sidewall failures are usually the rsult of low inflation. Did your TPMS give a warning?
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Old 07-23-2021, 11:56 AM   #42
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Actually he is correct, to some degree. Budd rims use 2 lugs, an inner and an outer. I have changed a few in my time, and it takes a very BIG impact wrench and socket set to do it, 1" drive at the least.



The inner rim is secured with the inner nut, then the outer rim is secured to the inner nut with an outer nut. The nuts have reversed threads to each other.

I doubt many trucks still use this system, I think Oshkosh still does, but they are out there, just not for the trucks we drive.


For the OP, one thing you should do if not too late is inspect the sheared studs. If you see any sort of corrosion on the face where it was sheared off, then it is possible the studs were either over torqued and stretched or damaged in some way. Corrosion will form where the stud becomes cracked from stretching, usually at the base where it meets the hub.
I was going to mention Budd wheels in my post about securing wheels but I thought it too difficult to describe and the fact they are rarely seen nowadays.
Thanks for posting picture and yes after hefting an old school 1” air gun and I believe 10 studs it was a bit of a workout for sure. Glad those days are behind us.
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Old 07-23-2021, 12:50 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by The2002Wanderer View Post
Last month in IDAHO we had a catastrophic wheel failure in our 2020 Isata 3. While driving on I-90 both dual wheels on the driver's side came off without warning: just a big boom and then scary as hell until I regained control of the RV and navigated to the shoulder. Both dual wheels off of studs and tucked up into wheel well; I was driving on the disc brake and the steel plate of the leveling jack. No sign of lug nuts anywhere and no shimmy or vibration indicating pending loss of wheels before incident. All wheels had been changed and torqued about 5000 miles earlier by reputable local tire shop. Damage = 2 tires and rims destroyed; wheel hub needed replacement; RV body side at back of wheel well/generator access door pushed out, etc. Side Note, after incident we discovered Continental Fourseason Vanco tire had sidewall separation - second time we've had sidewall failure with these tires!

Good news is we were all safe (watch those Youtube videos on how to recover from a catastrophic blowout!). Bad News: (1) Forest River/SafeRideRV Motor Club Emergency roadside assistance not able to provide tow; (2) MBS took a week to deliver new steel wheel, wheel flange and lug nuts; (3) MBS only supplied one replacement wheel after two were ordered. I still need to find a replacement Alcoa wheel.

In over 50 years of driving I've never lost a wheel like this. Has anyone else had an unexplained wheel failure similar to this on their Sprinter?
Maybe.
Had you rechecked the torque at anytime after the reputable tire change?
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Old 07-23-2021, 02:55 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Bhrava View Post
Actually he is correct, to some degree. Budd rims use 2 lugs, an inner and an outer. I have changed a few in my time, and it takes a very BIG impact wrench and socket set to do it, 1" drive at the least.



The inner rim is secured with the inner nut, then the outer rim is secured to the inner nut with an outer nut. The nuts have reversed threads to each other.

I doubt many trucks still use this system, I think Oshkosh still does, but they are out there, just not for the trucks we drive.


For the OP, one thing you should do if not too late is inspect the sheared studs. If you see any sort of corrosion on the face where it was sheared off, then it is possible the studs were either over torqued and stretched or damaged in some way. Corrosion will form where the stud becomes cracked from stretching, usually at the base where it meets the hub.
These are the ones I remember when I was an owner operator back in the 80s. My KW and trailer had bud wheels. I didn’t know they went away from those. We still see them on Isuzu’s and Mitsubishi’s that my old shop still works on.

It’s probably time to move on to tire pressures. 😋
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Old 07-23-2021, 09:34 PM   #45
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Maybe.
Had you rechecked the torque at anytime after the reputable tire change?
Yes, the OP said they were retorqued after some number of miles too. So that means the reputable shop that has repeatedly been thrown "under the bus" wasn't likely even the last party to touch the lugs. And no mention of loose lug nuts at the retorque either, which could have been a red flag.

The story at the beginning was a single.loud bang.followed by a wheel(s) off event. A later inspection revealed,.among other things a damaged tire. I will speculate two things. An impact with something mostly immoveable, or overtightened lugs that were all stretched. I'd love to have 5.minutes to look at the remnants of the studs. I'm glad no one was hurt.
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Old 07-24-2021, 12:07 PM   #46
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Now every time I have work done I check all the lugs before I even pull out of their yard.[/QUOTE]

I always take my vehicles home and retorque the lugs after any tire work is done. More frequently, they are terribly over torqued, but I have found them under torqued as well.
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Old 07-24-2021, 12:26 PM   #47
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Just another speculation but I'm thinking Tireman9 has a very likely explanation. Low tire pressure is a potential bomb. I've heard of them rupturing so violently, the shrapnel came thru the camper interior. It seems unlikely that all bolts would shear and tires blow simultaneously.
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Old 07-24-2021, 02:14 PM   #48
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Yes, the OP said they were retorqued after some number of miles too. So that means the reputable shop that has repeatedly been thrown "under the bus" wasn't likely even the last party to touch the lugs. And no mention of loose lug nuts at the retorque either, which could have been a red flag.



The story at the beginning was a single.loud bang.followed by a wheel(s) off event. A later inspection revealed,.among other things a damaged tire. I will speculate two things. An impact with something mostly immoveable, or overtightened lugs that were all stretched. I'd love to have 5.minutes to look at the remnants of the studs. I'm glad no one was hurt.
Since you quoted my post I'll defend that I didn't throw anyone under the bus. I simply asked if the lug nuts had been checked from the time the reputable tire company (OP's words) did the tire change. If you put 2+2 together and got 5 that's on you.

ON EDIT:
I do see the OP mentioned they were retorqued in post # 17. I missed that initially.
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Old 07-24-2021, 02:19 PM   #49
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Thanks to all who have made suggestions as to the cause of the wheel failure we went through. Here's some answers/replies to the many comments received.

LUG NUTS: After the loud bang of the wheels failing at about 70 mph I accelerated some to bring the RV back under control and then gently eased up on the throttle as I navigated across 2 1/2 lanes to the shoulder: from the scars left on the freeway it looks like this might have been up to a mile of driving on the brake rotor and leveling jack base plate. Some of the studs on the damaged wheels showed signs of being stripped although this could be the result of rims rubbing on the wheel rims rubbing on the studs. Some of the studs showed signs of bending also and one had what looked like a stress crack near the base plate. The stud holes in the rims were elongated indicating that they had be loose on the studs: How long? I have no idea - wheels passed a visual inspection at fueling stop just 50 miles earlier and all the other wheels on the RV were properly torqued when inspected after incident and there was no vibration or handling problem prior to the catastrophic failure of the wheels. I'm still at a loss about the cause unless it was started by a stud failure.

TIRES: The dual tires were both Continental Vanco FourSeason LT215/85 R 16 115/112Q M+S made in the Czech Republic the last week of March 2018. Tires were inflated to 70PSI cold and were monitored with a TST TPMS system that showed no loss of pressure until the blow-out of the inside rear tire. It was the inside rear tire that had the sidewall separation problem. Curiously, the outer rear tire maintained pressure throughout and was still at pressure when the tow truck arrived hours later although it did have chunks of the tread along the edge cut/torn off by rubbing against the fender well.

QUESTIONS FOR THE PROS OUT THERE: I've been given lots of conflicting information about tire pressure for my Mercedes Sprinter RV. The door jamb sticker on my Dynamax Isata 3 says inflation should be 61 PSI Cold for all tires. All the of the tire dealers have told me I should inflate the tires to 70 PSI Cold (some even recommended 80 PSI Cold - the maximum stamped on the tires). I drove at 61 PSI for the first 8,000 miles but the tires were showing signs of under-inflation so I boosted the pressure to 70 PSI for the last 12,000 miles. No increase in ride roughness bu a slight increase in MPG. DOES ANYONE REALLY KNOW what tire pressure should be used?

ALCOA Wheels: I'm having difficulty locating a replacement for the damaged ALCOA wheel - currently have dual steel replacements on that side of the RV. Does anyone know how I can get just ONE ALCOA Wheel replacement? Everyone wants to sell them in full sets.

Thanks in advance for your advise an suggestions, I still feel like a newbie after owning this rig for 2 years and 22,000 miles.
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Old 07-24-2021, 02:39 PM   #50
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ALCOA Wheels: I'm having difficulty locating a replacement for the damaged ALCOA wheel - currently have dual steel replacements on that side of the RV. Does anyone know how I can get just ONE ALCOA Wheel replacement? Everyone wants to sell them in full sets.
Buytruckwheels.com shows individual Alcoa wheels available on their website.
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Old 07-24-2021, 02:52 PM   #51
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TIRES: The dual tires were both Continental Vanco FourSeason LT215/85 R 16 115/112Q M+S made in the Czech Republic the last week of March 2018. Tires were inflated to 70PSI cold and were monitored with a TST TPMS system that showed no loss of pressure until the blow-out of the inside rear tire. It was the inside rear tire that had the sidewall separation problem. Curiously, the outer rear tire maintained pressure throughout and was still at pressure when the tow truck arrived hours later although it did have chunks of the tread along the edge cut/torn off by rubbing against the fender well.
I had a MB Sprinter based Class B for 6 years. It came with Continentals, which I had to replace after the first 2 years. As you noted, the tires were 'chunking': pieces of tread, some as large as an inch across were falling off leaving the remaining tread looking like swiss cheese. I wouldn't touch Continentals, even with a very long pole.

But how does sidewall separation relate to lug failure? It seems like two separate disasters at the same time.
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Old 07-24-2021, 02:57 PM   #52
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Answer to post #49

Googled your sise here in Holland, and also gave in C( omercial)- tyre 115/112 loadindex.
10plyrated so is E-load so AT 80 psi, but can also be 77 or 83 psi.

So look again at sidewall, and see if also " max inflation pressure" of 10 psi higher is given.

Then if you give at least GAWR'S , but better weighed axle( end)- weight, fully loaded.
I assume from your info dualload rear axle.

If you give that all, I will trow it in my made extra safe motorhome-tirepressure-calculator.
Uses an even safer formula then official european ( I once got hold of and went running with), wich on its turn comes to higher pressure then the by american TRA used formula.
Then I first add a reserve, and that is mostly not done by the motorhome maker. They mostly yust look up the GAWR in a pressure/ loadcapacity- list, and dont add a reserve first.
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Old 07-24-2021, 03:01 PM   #53
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DOES ANYONE REALLY KNOW what tire pressure should be used?
Best way to determine that is to weigh the rig and get the axle weights, then reference the tire manufacturers load vs inflation tables for the weight carried by each tire. On the front axel it's divide the axle weight by 2, for the rear divide by 4 ,caveat the tables usually list different (lower) load ratings for tires when used in a dual wheel configuration.
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Old 07-24-2021, 05:00 PM   #54
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Since you quoted my post I'll defend that I didn't throw anyone under the bus. I simply asked if the lug nuts had been checked from the time the reputable tire company (OP's words) did the tire change. If you put 2+2 together and got 5 that's on you.

ON EDIT:
I do see the OP mentioned they were retorqued in post # 17. I missed that initially.
You are right. My apologies, it was the multiple.other posts that directly suggested or at least gave inferences that the shop was the culprit. Of course the last touch.of human hands on those lugs is the most likely cause, but not the only possibility. It's not like their guess was any worse than mine given the data we have.
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:08 PM   #55
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Well that’s not exactly true. 18 wheelers have an inner and outer lug nut on every stud on the rear duels.
Bill, not many of those left on the road, you are referring to the budd wheel system. They had an inner nut and an outer nut on each stud. Very poor system in my opinion.
The hub piloted or unimount is what is used today. A single nut per stud holds the wheels on.

Both systems require the mounting surfaces on the wheels and hub to be clean and rust free. Rust, debris and improper torque can cause a wheel off situation. Also the wheels should be retorqued after about 100 miles.
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Old 11-03-2021, 09:57 PM   #56
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[QUOTE=The2002Wanderer;2599710]Last month in IDAHO we had a catastrophic wheel failure in our 2020 Isata 3. While driving on I-90 both dual wheels on the driver's side came off without warning: just a big boom and then scary as hell until I regained control of the RV and navigated to the shoulder. Both dual wheels off of studs and tucked up into wheel well; I was driving on the disc brake and the steel plate of the leveling jack. No sign of lug nuts anywhere and no shimmy or vibration indicating pending loss of wheels before incident. All wheels had been changed and torqued about 5000 miles earlier by reputable local tire shop. Damage = 2 tires and rims destroyed; wheel hub needed replacement; RV body side at back of wheel well/generator access door pushed out, etc. Side Note, after incident we discovered Continental Fourseason Vanco tire had sidewall separation - second time we've had sidewall failure with these tires!

Good news is we were all safe (watch those Youtube videos on how to recover from a catastrophic blowout!). Bad News: (1) Forest River/SafeRideRV Motor Club Emergency roadside assistance not able to provide tow; (2) MBS took a week to deliver new steel wheel, wheel flange and lug nuts; (3) MBS only supplied one replacement wheel after two were ordered. I still need to find a replacement Alcoa wheel.

In over 50 years of driving I've never lost a wheel like this. Has anyone else had an unexplained wheel failure similar to this on their Sprinter? [/The length of the wheel lug is far to reach, they have used extension and did not compensate for the loss of torque, should use a 3/4 set it has less flexibility in it and always re torque and before any trip]
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Old 11-04-2021, 09:04 AM   #57
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socket to torque wrench extension length

does not affect torque as long as the extension is kept straight in line with the wheel stud. Also size adapters such as a 3/4 to 1/2 adapter does not affect torque. This assuming that the torque wrench is used properly, that is with a smooth, slow, steady pull. Bouncing or jerking on the torque wrench or using a handle extension may affect the accuracy of the torque wrench. Using swivels or u joints will affect the accuracy. On some wrenches not using the hand grip may affect accuracy.

Something like a crowsfoot adapter may cause a inaccuracy depending on what angle it id to the torque wrench handle.

Torque multipliers will cause inaccuracy due to internal friction. The high quality multipliers have a compensation factor with their documentation, how ever I would avoid using if possible. Too many variables in the multiplier such as last serviced time, proper servicing, use and abuse etc.

In our tire shop the wheels are always torqued with a torque wrench. On larger wheels where the tech can not hold the extension straight in line with the wheel stud we have a notched stand to hold the extension straight.
All customers are requested to return for a free retorque at 100 miles. Most do and a NC work order is made so we have record.

The big trucking companys around here also require a retorque be done and the drivers have a card that needs signed off on by the tire shop. No signature it did not happen and the driver may be responsible for the damage.

Also if a wheel nut requires much of a turn to bring it to torque, the wheel must be removed and an inspection done to find out why. Debris between the nut and wheel, between the wheels, between the wheel and brake drum/rotor, between the drum/rotor and hub or wheel bolts stretching.

Also, the last guy to touch may not be at fault of a wheel off. Previous over torqueing, dirty or damaged threads can cause failure of the fastening system.

Some of the larger equipment has a replacement schedule on the number of torqueing's a wheel bolt can have before replacement.
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