Isata 5 schematics

[RACERX335]

I know this has been hashed over numerous times in the past, 52 posts actually starting 8/2/2015 with thousands of views and hundreds of comments, it’s an issue. I’ve taken the time to write Dynamax directly with limited success obtaining harness drawings but no schematics. Some very helpful folks on this forum with more drawings but no schematics (thank you). In less than 15 Mins full factory schematics are available for the RAM 5500 for $99.00, add the factory service manual for another $119.00. My Tiffin came with a 3” binder full of schematics and both mechanical / civil drawings. Every cut sheet provided with the coach for all accessory’s has a schematic. There is an obvious desire and demand for the schematics which means there is also a market. If a wiring harness was made, there is a schematic available showing the detailed interconnections between the devices, you can’t have a harness without a schematic is the bottom line and why these are not readily available to the customer makes no sense, especially after the warranty is up. “Whomever” at Dynamax is holding back on the schematics is missing a marketing opportunity or at the very least customer satisfaction it they chose to make them available for free. To diagnose a circuit you have to see it and understand how it works before you can fix it. Troubleshooting without a schematic is a waste of time guessing how something is wired, what is a primary circuit and what is a controlled circuit, where are the switches / interlocks etc. With harness drawings and schematics a person has everything needed to tackle the most complex of problems. Dynamax ….. Schematics Matter, please free them

[bclemens]

Well, from what I understand you have everything that we use to build a unit.

Back in the day, I took a company through ISO 9001 certification. We were the first modular manufacturer to ever get certified.

It was an unorthodox process. The consultant we used, really wanted us to look at all the ways we were already compliant. So part of my job was to find and debate all the processes and procedures that already complied with the spirit of the standard. So we were already DOING the things that needed to be done (minus a few checks and balances) we just didn't call them the things that ISO called them.

So when it came time for the certification process, the auditor came in with "preconceived" notions of what it should look like. He wanted structured written procedures with step by step items formatted in a particular way...but that is not what the standard wanted. They simply wanted checks and balances to ensure the quality process and we had those. So he wrote up a bunch of defects, we appealed and produced the documents we had and it went from 15 major issues, to about 6 minor ones. We corrected those and were certified.

Point being, we can expect certain things to be a certain way because that is how we expect them to be, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Doesn't make it wrong, just makes it different.

[RACERX335]

Originally Posted by bclemens

Point being, we can expect certain things to be a certain way because that is how we expect them to be, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Doesn't make it wrong, just makes it different.

I think it awesome we can have this civil conversation, I don’t believe we even disagree. In numerous posts it looks like the schematics may be released, it just never happens … a teaser. Appreciate your experiences and perspective with the ISO process, it’s the pinnacle of manufacturing excellence and the magnitude it carries is not recognized by most who are not involved with reaching that standard or its compliance. Please bear with me so I can explain my perspective as well.
Having spent the majority of my career deploying around the world in some of the most remote, austere and sometimes hostile environments with 5Mw of power systems which included a push package of generators, tools, parts, paralleling cables, power cables, LI switches, transformers a team of Prime Power Specialist AND technical manuals with schematics in print and electrons has undoubtedly formed what I consider being prepared when I head out onto the road. I could not even count the number of times having the schematics saved our arses on deployment. Tracking the interpretation of regulations and the “spirit”, have some limited experience with that as well, mission first … people always … Brigade desk jockey last. When you have your finger on the light switch for an entire COB, FOB, disaster site or staging base it allows for a whole lot of flexibility interpreting the "spirit" of regulations. If not illegal, immoral or unsafe, I’m probably doing it to keep the power on.
I think most of us here are from an era that remembers when you headed across country you brought tools, a spare, extra fuel, a few parts and coins to make a phone call. Cruise control was your right foot, steering control was not a little black box it was 10 and 2 on the wheel, the ECU sat on your shoulders. I cannot in good conscious get behind the wheel of this $150k rig, in ignorant bliss and HOPE nothing goes wrong because it will and there is about a 99% chance it will be electrical. There is a push package in my FW30 and it’s missing schematics. I’ve just never ran across a manufacture of anything with wires connected to it that didn’t provide a schematic either for sale or provided upon request. So far as skinning the cat … you cannot skin the cat at all if you don’t have a sharp tool, schematics are tools. IMHO just because something is not illegal (like burning the flag) doesn’t make it right. Guess for a way forward I would ask if I have what you have then the electrical design is being outsourced by Dynamax, those schematics are being provided to another company (maybe the same designer) to build the harness, you guys receive the completed harness and install at the factory. Doubtful that company could release them unless Dynamax approved. Here is my challenge coin; I’d be willing to bet the first round that you could name me any commercially available off the shelf system, manufactured in the United States and I could get a schematic for it in less than 24 Hours.

[bclemens]

As for it being "teased". We actually have released the prints, they are released at the dealership level. Every division at Forest River, has a folder located within their respective area on our service software program. A dealer has access to this program and those folders which contain not only our electrical and plumbing drawings, but also all the owners manuals for the products in our coaches AND any troubleshooting videos or pdf's that we create.

As for the challenge, I would present my home as an example. While it is not a commercially available, off the shelf system, our motorhomes don't fit into that neat little package either.

I asked for all the prints to my house and I got them. Floor plan prints, electrical layout, some structural details...but no detailed circuit schematics. They just don't exist. They use normal building code (as we do with RVIA) in regards to voltage drop, 110V outlet loading etc.

When I was with the modular commercial builder, I was actually a design engineer. I designed the electrical, structural, mechanical and plumbing. I would balance a three phase load panel, but as for detailed schematics on the wiring...we didn't need them nor did the state need them for building code approval.

As for being outsourced...we outsource zero of the electrical design. Now, we do use Precision Plex and Firefly as a supplier on the multiplex side of things (12V not 110V)...but again those are components and we refer someone to the component manufacturer for any schematics they might provide.

[RACERX335]

[QUOTE=bclemens;2374031]As for it being "teased". We actually have released the prints, they are released at the dealership level.


Appreciate your patience with the questions. Having spoke with 3 dealers within 150 miles of my location none of them said they had access to any Dynamax holy grail of documents and referred me be back to Dynamax. I asked one service writer how they trouble shoot or trace down circuits. "well, you just pull on stuff to find where it goes or replace the bad part" I wouldn't take my RV there to replace a windshield wiper during a rain storm. Liked the home example but considering we are dealing with a very sophisticated integration of many systems one would like to think there is a higher degree of standards and documentation available to support it. So how does this work for the guys building the harness with no schematic? they just get a bunch of wire, no color codes or AWG requirement ... stack of plug ends and go at it? Cmon now. The push back to make them available reminds of the days Pre J1939, and ODBII when to work on anything you had to buy proprietary software and connectors. I'm not asking for anything for free, I'd pay for them and assume the liability for their use as with every other MFG who provides them. When I bought the schematics for the RAM 5500 there is a 4 Line disclaimer in red. As to COTS, I did read in another post about the color of awnings. I don't recall exactly but the intent seemed to suggest Dynamax was NOT into custom manufacturing but production, uniformity and costs to keep them competitive in the market ... that kinda seems like commercially available?

Respectfully ...

[bclemens]

I think there might be a disconnect here.

As I mentioned earlier "...from what I understand you have everything that we use to build a unit." My guys said they gave you all the break outs for the harness. So when I talk about the prints going to dealers, it is what we sent you already, they would have nothing more.

You keep insisting the schematics exist and we are just holding out. I have zero reason to hold out...if I had something more, I would certainly give it to you. So you can offer any amount of money, but I cannot present what does not exist.

The guys that build the harness do that for a living. The color codes and and gauge are on the pin-out detail. All the wires are printed with a set of numbers. The guys installing the harness, have a description of what it plugs into. Many of the plugs are set up to only go in one way and only on the proper connection at the other end.

All harness prints read as follows "1. ALL WIRES TO BE COLOR CODED WITH CIRCUIT DESCRIPTIONS AND NUMBERS PRINTED EVERY SIX INCHES"

Attached is a blow-up of the connector detail that is on the harness print. I shows colors, awg, circuit.

We have given you everything that we have.

The guys that install the harness, grab the end and plug it into the circuit it says. If there is an issue, we troubleshoot. We know the circuit, we know the color of the wire, it seems to work somehow.

[RACERX335]

Originally Posted by bclemens

I think there might be a disconnect here

The guys that install the harness, grab the end and plug it into the circuit it says. If there is an issue, we troubleshoot. We know the circuit, we know the color of the wire, it seems to work somehow.

Not sure what kind of Voodoo magic you guys are practicing up there but it does seem to work The harness is VERY well made and the crimps are done correctly. Bob was not in when this all started but Sara and Eric were very helpful with the harness drawings. OK, I'll wrap my head around this notion that all these components can be integrated into a working system and nobody has ever sat down with an e-design cad program and laid out these circuits in one complete comprehensive schematic. What started this trip down the rabbit hole was a parasitic draw that was killing the batteries with the master power off. Two issues were found and corrected easily so all good there.
Thanks again for all the feedback and the team off the Dynamax contacts list, they were great!!

[bclemens]

Originally Posted by RACERX335

Not sure what kind of Voodoo magic you guys are practicing up there but it does seem to work The harness is VERY well made and the crimps are done correctly. Bob was not in when this all started but Sara and Eric were very helpful with the harness drawings. OK, I'll wrap my head around this notion that all these components can be integrated into a working system and nobody has ever sat down with an e-design cad program and laid out these circuits in one complete comprehensive schematic. What started this trip down the rabbit hole was a parasitic draw that was killing the batteries with the master power off. Two issues were found and corrected easily so all good there.
Thanks again for all the feedback and the team off the Dynamax contacts list, they were great!!

What were the two issues? I know there are a couple of things we are required to wire directly to the batteries...as we can't let you bypass (or disconnect) safety measures.

[RACERX335]

Originally Posted by bclemens

What were the two issues? I know there are a couple of things we are required to wire directly to the batteries...as we can't let you bypass (or disconnect) safety measures.

Coach batteries were going dead with the manual isolation SW in the open position.

Since making the changes I've let the coach set two weeks now and still 13.2 on the batteries and GTG.

Highest draw ( a constant 5.6A) was the batteries have a heater wrap on them and were wired directly to the batteries. Noticed they were really WARM but thought that was from charging. Turns out they don't have the temp switch installed, just the wrap and straight to the batteries. A much smaller draw was coming from the main power wire that goes to the Leveling System. With the Manual disconnect in the open position when you connected the ground wire it would energize (.8A) that relay sitting atop the pump head. I just moved that wire (#2AWG) to the isolated circuit when the isolation sw is in the open position. no more dead batteries. I know the previous owner had the two way fridge installed, additional solar and likely these warmers. Got my own Voodoo dance to isolate the levelers , any reason they need to be on a live circuit all the time?