Question for Lithium Experts

[bratbros]

I was tinkering with my solar controller and noticed it has a setting for LiPo. If I would put lithium batteries in would this be enough to just change this setting or do I need to change out other components? What brand of battery has the built in heaters?

[bratbros]

Picture of the controller.

[TitanMike]

Not an expert but "somewhat" knowledgeable.

LiPo is a "lthium polymer" designation is the same kind of battery as used in cell phones, RC models, and others.

LiFePo or LifePo4 is a "Lithium Iron Phosphate" chemistry and generally has different charging profiles due to the cell voltages.

If possible I'd see if there is a LiFePo or LiFePo4 profile and use it for the common drop in LiFePo4 batteries normally used.. (Note: the 4 on the end merely means the battery consists of four internal cells and indicates it's a nominal 12 volt battery).

If no profile for the LiFePo batteries I'd see what the voltages are for the LiPo profile; Bulk, Absorbtion, Absorbtion duration, and Float.

That's about the limit of my knowledge on your question.

[TitanMike]

Close look at the picture shows it's suitable for LiFePo4 batteries.

[bratbros]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Close look at the picture shows it's suitable for LiFePo4 batteries.

Mike, my controller actually says LiFePo on the setting I was referring to. My bad. Would I need to change out the BIRD or anything else?

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by bratbros

Mike, my controller actually says LiFePo on the setting I was referring to. My bad. Would I need to change out the BIRD or anything else?

It's all good. I believe you will need to change the BIRD for a Lithium compatible unit if you want full charge from the alternator.

I have a different setup so I'll leave that answer to those with a coach like yours.

[BLT4SPD]

Originally Posted by bratbros

Mike, my controller actually says LiFePo on the setting I was referring to. My bad. Would I need to change out the BIRD or anything else?

You don't NEED to change out the BIRD, but the BIRD won't allow "full" charge on the lithiums. The Li-BIM will allow for the higher voltage that the Lithiums like to pass from the Alternator to the house batteries.....at least that's my understanding......and I don't fall into the "expert" category either.

I did just replace my BIRD with the Li-BIM, so I have some amount of recent hands on experience and used Dynamax drawings to get the job done. Click here....

https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...db-211501.html

[bclemens]

This has been discussed on other threads already.

State of Charge on lead batteries is determined by voltage. Lithium's not so much....whole system has to be changed.

[bratbros]

Originally Posted by bclemens

This has been discussed on other threads already.

State of Charge on lead batteries is determined by voltage. Lithium's not so much....whole system has to be changed.

Thanks Brian. Not worth it to me. I'll either add a couple more AGM's or just keep using the generator...a lot.

[Oldnapapartsguy]

Originally Posted by bratbros

Thanks Brian. Not worth it to me. I'll either add a couple more AGM's or just keep using the generator...a lot.

Changed my Isata 4 31 DS over to lithium and I am on my first trip with them. All I can say is WOW, a whole different situation. The solar controller is perfect, exactly what I have. The series 4 had a BCC (battery control center) which I modified with a LI-BIM 225 and changed the charge board in the PD4060K progressive dynamics converter/charger. Total work time maybe 4 hours. Total cost minus batteries less than $400. I bought 2 UT1300 Lion Energy lithiums from Costco for $1399 delivered so I have less than $2000 invested and I have 210 ah of Lithium which is more than twice what I had usable with the AGM's. If you do it you will never look back!!!
By the way if you do it install a Smart Shunt 500 amp from Vitron so you can see what's happening on your phone, very cool.

[mlmay12]

Originally Posted by Oldnapapartsguy

Changed my Isata 4 31 DS over to lithium and I am on my first trip with them. All I can say is WOW, a whole different situation. The solar controller is perfect, exactly what I have. The series 4 had a BCC (battery control center) which I modified with a LI-BIM 225 and changed the charge board in the PD4060K progressive dynamics converter/charger. Total work time maybe 4 hours. Total cost minus batteries less than $400. I bought 2 UT1300 Lion Energy lithiums from Costco for $1399 delivered so I have less than $2000 invested and I have 210 ah of Lithium which is more than twice what I had usable with the AGM's. If you do it you will never look back!!!
By the way if you do it install a Smart Shunt 500 amp from Vitron so you can see what's happening on your phone, very cool.

I agree with everything he said. One of the main benefits is the Lithium's can be run down to ZERO where the AGM Batteries should not be run below 50% on a regular basis as it supposedly damages them. Does not hurt the Lithiums at all so you are essentially doubling your usable power and cutting the weight by half. Best Mod I have done to date.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by mlmay12

I agree with everything he said. One of the main benefits is the Lithium's can be run down to ZERO where the AGM Batteries should not be run below 50% on a regular basis as it supposedly damages them. Does not hurt the Lithiums at all so you are essentially doubling your usable power and cutting the weight by half. Best Mod I have done to date.

That feature is big but another one that makes the Lithium benefit huge is the MUCH shorter recharge time. No more "half day absorption times". Very little loss due to charging efficiency. Lithium's will suck up all the current your converter/charger will put out. Take out 100 amp hours, charge at 50 amp rate, and charge time is just a little over 2 hours. On a lead/acid battery it could run several times that with the last 10% taking longer than the first 90%.


For those relying on generators for recharging that means a lot less fuel burned and wear/tear on generator (and less noise duration).

[Oldnapapartsguy]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

That feature is big but another one that makes the Lithium benefit huge is the MUCH shorter recharge time. No more "half day absorption times". Very little loss due to charging efficiency. Lithium's will suck up all the current your converter/charger will put out. Take out 100 amp hours, charge at 50 amp rate, and charge time is just a little over 2 hours. On a lead/acid battery it could run several times that with the last 10% taking longer than the first 90%.


For those relying on generators for recharging that means a lot less fuel burned and wear/tear on generator (and less noise duration).

X2

[mlmay12]

Originally Posted by Oldnapapartsguy

X2

X3

[Steve W indy]

With profound respect for previous commenters...

The "4" in the LiFePO4 is the designator for the 4 Oxygen atoms in a Phosphate ion. Just like H2O is two H's and one O. Since that's a typical oxidative state for phosphate, the letters PO are simply a truncation of the term PO4 as redundant or obvious. It does NOT indicate the number of cells in series or 12V. So it's common to see LiFePO4 24V or 36V.

I only mention this for safety reasons; assuming the "4" assured the user he/she was dealing with a 12V LiIon could be incorrect, that's all. Could be dangerous.

For any stack of Li-ion or LiXXX type batteries, make sure to check the labeled voltage rating or you may see something like Li-ion 4S or 5S or 6S to indicate cell number in SERIES internally 12, 15, 18V (nominal).

The lithium-iron (LiFePo4; Fe is the chemical symbol for elemental Iron) battery has a slight edge over the Li-ion (LiCoO2, Lithium Cobalt) battery for safety. This is important because a battery should not get overheated or catch fire in case of overcharging.

The lithium-iron (LiFePO or LiFePO4) battery has superior chemical and thermal stability. A Lithium-iron battery remains cool at room temperature while the Li-ion may suffer thermal runaway and heats up faster under similar charging conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery

[Oldnapapartsguy]

Originally Posted by Steve W indy

With profound respect for previous commenters...

The "4" in the LiFePO4 is the designator for the 4 Oxygen atoms in a Phosphate ion. Just like H2O is two H's and one O. Since that's a typical oxidative state for phosphate, the letters PO are simply a truncation of the term PO4 as redundant or obvious. It does NOT indicate the number of cells in series or 12V. So it's common to see LiFePO4 24V or 36V.

I only mention this for safety reasons; assuming the "4" assured the user he/she was dealing with a 12V LiIon could be incorrect, that's all. Could be dangerous.

For any stack of Li-ion or LiXXX type batteries, make sure to check the labeled voltage rating or you may see something like Li-ion 4S or 5S or 6S to indicate cell number in SERIES internally 12, 15, 18V (nominal).

The lithium-iron (LiFePo4; Fe is the chemical symbol for elemental Iron) battery has a slight edge over the Li-ion (LiCoO2, Lithium Cobalt) battery for safety. This is important because a battery should not get overheated or catch fire in case of overcharging.

The lithium-iron (LiFePO or LiFePO4) battery has superior chemical and thermal stability. A Lithium-iron battery remains cool at room temperature while the Li-ion may suffer thermal runaway and heats up faster under similar charging conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery

Appreciate all the technical information. Helps us dummies a lot. Safety is a huge concern

[vlamgat]

Interesting thread. Thanks for the information but here is a follow on question: presuming that your chargers/inverters are connected directly to the batteries, do they draw a residual current even when the 12V system is switched off. Many do and the Outback as an example draws 36 watts which will deplete an AGM in a few days?

[CHICKDOE]

i had a conversation with a rep from progressive dynamics and left with the impression that a converter (at least theirs) does monitor and draw some 12 vdc power from the batteries if left connected even though they may not be receiving any 120 vac power. in effect, the converter becomes another of the parasitic loads that will drain the battery.

i am not a expert is this but it makes some sense to me.

[bubbles]

Originally Posted by CHICKDOE

i had a conversation with a rep from progressive dynamics and left with the impression that a converter (at least theirs) does monitor and draw some 12 vdc power from the batteries if left connected even though they may not be receiving any 120 vac power. in effect, the converter becomes another of the parasitic loads that will drain the battery.

i am not a expert is this but it makes some sense to me.

By "left connected" do you mean the batteries not in storage mode. Parasitic loads are typically characterized as a load with the batteries disconnected.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by CHICKDOE

i had a conversation with a rep from progressive dynamics and left with the impression that a converter (at least theirs) does monitor and draw some 12 vdc power from the batteries if left connected even though they may not be receiving any 120 vac power. in effect, the converter becomes another of the parasitic loads that will drain the battery.

i am not a expert is this but it makes some sense to me.

If it draws any power it will be very little. Only a few thousandths of an amp. Yes, all the "little loads" add up but Converters aren't usually considered to be a problem.

If one is concerned with the small loads just turn off the battery disconnect switch which all batter banks should have.