REV 24 house batteries

[FFred]

Look on the website of the batt mfg for their 20hour rate.

Divide that in half as to not harm the batt set it should never be discharged below 50% full.

If you love to boondock and will be using the batts for lifestyle , supplimented with a gen set, you might consider a SOC meter.

A State Of Charge meter is a gas gauge for the house batts and will observe all draws coming out and going in and give a percentage from full 100% charged.

Here is one , there are many others.

If you price a set of AGM house batts , you will see this is cheap insurance.

Folks that prefer campsites with power have little use for a SOC on board.
TriMetric Battery System | Bogart Engineering

dev.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetric


Bogart Engineering: manufacturer of the TriMetric and PentaMetric battery ... “Percent Full” (“State of charge”) of your batteries, so you can see if you need to ...

[Kayakgir]

Thanks ffred- Indeed it would be there- before posting the query I went to the Penn website and realized I don't know the exact product number since there's no way I am removing the batteries to take a peek. Hoping Brian knew which Intimidator AGM was used in 2015 chassis REV and therefore AH. You are correct on the math and your suggestions are spot on.

[bclemens]

Group 31 AGM Intimidator. I think they were 105AH each

[Toyman]

For your application I'd seriously look at Battle Born LiPo batteries. 12v, about same physical size as grp27, 29# each, each will give you ~90AH, and still be producing ~13V. Yes the initial cost is higher, but life cycle cost is lower, much lower than AGMs.

Mine are driving a residential Refer, AND residential freezer in the Foretravel, for the trip to Alaska, when I return I'll put them in the Forester. I'll put the 8d lifeline AGMs back in...at 170# each !

https://battlebornbatteries.com

[bclemens]

Careful with just swapping out...many solar controllers and charge controllers are not set up for LiON batteries.

[Toyman]

You need to educate yourself on these LiPo batteries, they are usable on most standard chargers & controllers. Call them if you have questions, they are very helpful. They provided me with settings for my Trimetric battery monitor, my charger, and solar controller after they contacted the manufacturers. Never have I experienced such assistance.

[Derek T]

I am not sure about the ProMaster, but the Mercedes Benz alternator uses PWM (pulse Width Modulation) technology to regulate the voltage in lieu of a traditional internal or external voltage regulator. (I am going to attempt to articulate this as basic as I can, so I apologize in advance)

PWM is basically turning the circuit on, allowing it to reach an intended voltage level and then turning it off, then back on, and so forth and so on. Now the hysteresis (time it take the wave to travel from zero volts to the maximum voltage level, or from the maximum voltage level to zero).

Hysteresis appears as a slope on the wave shape, and the frequency is increased or decreased to lower or raise the lower voltage point.

The duty cycle (time the circuit is on(at maximum point, divided by the total time (time on + time off, also the period length).

This time off allows the components to cool down, and allows for lower rated parts to be used to drive this circuit. This is typically mosfets that are driven by a microprocessor and not a regulated circuit with a zener diode, current limiting resistor, and filter capacitor.

Using the PWM, again allows components to run cooler, allows precise voltage levels, and reduces the ripple voltage by using the hysteresis time and frequency, to keep the voltage from falling too far below the maximum on state voltage.

This technology is used in just about any switching power supply (switch mode), high frequency inverter, and probably every single cell phone charger in the world.

Some of the advantages are size, heat, cost, the disadvantages are noise, the need for a microprocessor, and complex algorithms that need to be written into the microprocessors software.

Anyway to get back on track, every battery type has a specific algorithm needed for charging, and the Lithium Ion, needs a pretty complex algorithm that is not the same as flooded or AGM. Also one thing to remember is to truly determine the SOC of the battery, you would need to measure the open circuit voltage at a certain specific gravity (I apologize for not remembering off the top of my head). One way to eliminate the need for taking a specific gravity measurement is waiting at least 30-60 minutes after a charge or load was present.

So, at the end of the day, vehicles alternators are getting far more complex these days so we have to be careful when adding batteries, and connecting loads that were not intended by the manufacturer.

A lot of these new chassis no longer have fuses either, they have modules that are driven by mosfets and they shut the outputs off, or pull them down, when an overcurrent situation happens. The REV and Sprinter both have this feature. So please do your research, and if you are not sure ask someone, the dealer, Dynamax, before you modify the electrical system.

I hope this helps.

[FFred]

I ran the LI battery advertising by some folks on a trawler board where 1,000 amps (and pounds) of batterys is not unusual.

One response, is posted below,RV can burn as well as boats.

*******
Battle Born / Dragonfly are one in the same, two brands by the same company..

Any LFP battery with an internal BMS & contactor that lack external communication to the DC charge system for proper shut down, should avoided for use on a boat.

Simple question:

Let's say your alt regulator or inverter/charger have a hiccup or glitch and push the LFP battery to a disconnect/open circuit while charging.

What happens to everything on your DC bus when the voltage transient, caused by an open circuit load dump, shoots your DC bus through the roof?


I know of no regulation circuitry that can react fast enough, with a charge source at full bore, to eliminate the possibility of a voltage transient causing damage to your gear. This includes alt regulators, inverters and other charge sources.

There is a reason the ABYC is working on a standard to address high capacity lithium ion batteries.

"Drop in" LI batteries that lack external communication, that can properly shut down charge sources BEFORE a disconnect occurs, is just one of the issues with "drop in" batteries.

Look into how Victron, Mastervolt, OPE/Li3 all do their BMS systems before you consider a drop in LFP battery.

As sealed Li battery that can't externally communicate is simply sales guys trying to get into your pants like a cheap prom date....

What happens when the ABYC standard is finalized and your "drop in" does not meet the minimum safe design and installation requirements? What will your insurer say?

[Derek T]

The Li technology is still relatively new, and for this technology to flourish, in my opinion, there needs to be a lot of training at the dealer, technician, OEM, and customer level. The only ones that I have seen that I would even think about, are the ones with the internal BMS and cut off.

I am afraid that we will still see far too many cheap imports designed to be sold with the Li name, but at a very low cost and this could potentially ruin this for everyone.

I know of a few companies that have batteries as well as complete systems, and the ones with the complete systems (Volta) sell the batteries with an BMS, a shut off switch, a deep storage switch (key switch), an Inverter/charger, a DC to DC converter, and an alternator.

if you look most all of the larger sized systems all use a lot higher voltage, say around 48V or more. Its just like the Hybrid cars, I think most of those run on around 60VDC. This higher voltage is needed because the power capabilities are so high, you simply cannot get the current needed at 12-14VDC, and there would be no way to run it because of the cable size needed. Some of these systems are 20KWH. and charge at 250-300ADC @ 48AVDC, this would equate to 4 times that for a 12v system. The cabling needed alone would be so large it would be impossible to install, or even find. 4/0 is difficult enough, sgx is rated at 125C and it very very difficult to bend. anything larger would be impossible.

Now, I have done a lot of training at the OE and rallys and I can tell you that if someone takes their battery maintenance seriously even lead acid batteries can lase a very very long time.

Anyway, an alternator is not a very efficient means to charge a battery, hence the reason the lead acid car batteries do not last that long. Now, the Mercedes for instance, going to the PWM output, that will help a lot and is light years ahead of anything else, but it is still not optimal.

[ScottBrownstein]

Lithium batteries have some advantages...and some serious issues as well. Just ask Boeing about their experience with Lithium.

Either way, they also demand different charging circuits. Progressive dynamics has released a new series of RV converters that are specifically designed for Lithium. Existing converters are nowhere near ideal.

Lithium Ion Battery Converter/Charger from Progressive

[Derek T]

No two batteries are the same when it comes to Li, the chemistry varies so much. I have sat in on some very high level discussions that are covered under NDA's and all I can tell you is that a converter like the PD, would be very far from optimal to charge them. The algorithm is very complex with bidirectional communication needed to make adjustments to ensure proper charging parameters. That is where the package comes in.

If you look at the charge algorithms from say Magnum Energy or Xantrex, they have multiple algorithms and they require the end user to set the battery banks size so that time adjustments can be made. The also take into account battery temperature.

A converter does its job, but it is limited and therefore must compensate by having very conservative values. look at the difference between the voltage levels for flooded, and the two different AGM batteries, Lifeline and Dekka, there is a substantial difference, and the PD covers all three. The have special converters for Li and GEL but again, they are not optimal.

I am awaiting the li market to settle and come up with something that is usable, simple, and reliable before I even think about them. Again, I have need standard flooded batteries last a long long time, if they are taken care of. AGM batteries are in most power distribution grids and telecom systems and can last in upwards of 20 years if properly maintained. But if they are stored and not charged and maintained correctly then they will fail like any other.

I just wanted to educate the group on some of the new alternator technology that is out there. I was surprised when I found out that MB was pulse width modulating their alternator output. I think this is a step in the right direction.

[steve32409]

Originally Posted by bclemens

Group 31 AGM Intimidator. I think they were 105AH each

This is the battery I have in my 2015 Rev - and it discharges overnite with only my frig on now - I would like to get 2 new batteries and most of the talk on here is over my head - which 2 should I buy ( 6 v or 12 v ) and where ( Walmart , tractor supply , ? / we don't dry camp - just travel and need maybe 24 hours at most where frig only with propane would work would not drain totally . thanks steve

[bclemens]

The easiest replacement for your two, would be to drop in (2) 12V's. Otherwise you also need to rewire the batteries. 6V are not necessarily better, other than they ONLY come as deep cycle so the plates are much heavier than some of the 12V batters that "claim" to be deep cycle. Just make sure you get 12V deep cycle marine batteries and take care of them. AGM's are more stable, require less if not zero maintenance and are more tolerable to over discharging. They will last for years if maintained...most of the time however, they sit on the dealer lot "un-plugged" and drain down to nothing which reduces their usable life considerably.

There are a few dealers that plug in all of their units. Or charge them every day (not quite as good) and we never have any complaints about those dealers and bad batteries at delivery.

[steve32409]

OK , I will go look today for the kind you just said / now for the " take care of them " just very simple and what you mean by that ? - thanks steve

[bclemens]

Don't over discharge them. The batteries should never really be discharged below 50% for AGM's. (80% for flooded). That that means, is try not to take the batteries down below about 12.2 volts. When parked for storage...pull the batteries. Or put a battery minder on them.

[PanAmMan]

I am brand new to this thread even though I have been lurking for several months but still do not have definitive answers to several crucial power and battery management questions. I am looking at buying a used 2016 Rev 24 with factory AC gen, Xantrex 1000 inverter, and house batteries.

I have seen all the posts about the alternator fuses and plan to install indicator light(s) to tell me when those fuses are Blown as well as a battery charge & use meter once I own the rig but I need to know what else I am dealing with before I make that leap ;-)

1) How are the house batteries recharged when connected to external AC, the factory generator and or Xantrex inverter?

2) If present where are these battery chargers connected and what type of battery charging amperage & voltage profile do these chargers have?

3) Is the charge profile adjustable for different battery capacities and technologies?

4) Do these chargers include desulfinators / rejuvinators to maximize deep cycle battery life and capacity?

5) How many amps does the REV alternator put out at normal idle, fast idle and >2000 RPM?

6) Does the alternator have a multistep charge profile to prevent battery damage when charging at HWY speeds for > 8hrs?

7) is the AC battery charger built into the Xantrex PRO or Freedom inverter? Which one is standard for 2016?

8) What are typical vampire loads and which REV 24 switch settings reduce them and by how much?

9) How long after manufacture and or purchase are owners factory house batteries lasting?


Thank You to everyone for all the great posts on this subject.

Please feel free to cut and paste excerpts from other posts that I may have missed if you think a question has already been answered well in another thread or post.

-PanAmMan

[PanAmMan]

Originally Posted by bclemens

Don't over discharge them. The batteries should never really be discharged below 50% for AGM's. (80% for flooded). That that means, is try not to take the batteries down below about 12.2 volts. When parked for storage...pull the batteries. Or put a battery minder on them.

And definitely, do not leave them discharged to <30% of capacity for any period of time!

A desulfinating and or rejuvenating AC trickle charger is the other MUST HAVE for extended deep cycle battery life. Many inverters and chargers do not include this critical feature on their lower end and even upper-end units.

From what I understand so far it is pretty easy to discharge your REV24's house batteries to < 50% in just a single evening with the fridge running and <30% if your dry camping and do not notice that your alternator fuse has blown!

Take the above with a grain of salt, as I am still learning about the REV24's charging and battery quirks myself.

P.S flooded batteries can be discharged further with less damage but they can be a little harder to take care of since they can be killed very quickly by deep discharging them with low electrolyte levels.

That's why AGM are so popular. AGM with trickle desulfinators are near optimal low maintenance solutions if you only occasionally deep discharge them.

If you like to boondock you need to keep your discharge to 50%! eg wake up in the morning and charge your house batteries first thing every day!

I am still working on figuring out the best solution to that once I know more about the REV24's existing charging capabilities and quirks. All systems have quirks! You just have to learn to live with them!


-PanAmMan

[PanAmMan]

Originally Posted by bclemens

Just to be clear. The inverter has nothing to do with charging. It's the Converter that controls the charging on almost all RV's (barring high end diesel pushers). We actually run an inverter/charger on the Isata 5, DX3 and Dynaquest. Every other normal Class C I know of, runs a converter and possibly a separate inverter. Many Mfg's run the WFCO converter that, according to our simple tests, did not always recognize the proper charge state required. On all the Dynamax REV's and Issta's we run a Progressive Dynamics converter with their charge wizard. (Fancy name for 3 stage charger). They also claim a desulfication mode, but science is fuzzy on whether this works. All I know is the PD converter in testing, always recognized the battery state and provided the proper charge voltage. It also ran quieter, cooler and is made in the USA.

bclemens
Am I reading this post right?

The 2106 REV24 batteries are charged by a Progressive Dynamics converter with their charge wizard which includes desulfation?

Can you please share the charge wizard specifications for the Progressive Dynamics converter used on the factory 2016 REV24?

-PanAmMan

[Delco Bobby]

Originally Posted by PanAmMan

bclemens
Am I reading this post right?

The 2106 REV24 batteries are charged by a Progressive Dynamics converter with their charge wizard which includes desulfation?

Can you please share the charge wizard specifications for the Progressive Dynamics converter used on the factory 2016 REV24?

-PanAmMan

My 2017 REV24 RB has the Progressive Dynamics charger. It charges the batteries when plugged into Shore power or if the generator is running. I believe the house battery switch needs to be on to charge from shore power. I am not sure if that is true if using the generator or just having the motor running but I suspect so.

You may want to visit the Progressive Dynamics web site for your technical questions.

[Delco Bobby]

Originally Posted by PanAmMan

I am brand new to this thread even though I have been lurking for several months but still do not have definitive answers to several crucial power and battery management questions. I am looking at buying a used 2016 Rev 24 with factory AC gen, Xantrex 1000 inverter, and house batteries.

I have seen all the posts about the alternator fuses and plan to install indicator light(s) to tell me when those fuses are Blown as well as a battery charge & use meter once I own the rig but I need to know what else I am dealing with before I make that leap ;-)

1) How are the house batteries recharged when connected to external AC, the factory generator and or Xantrex inverter?

2) If present where are these battery chargers connected and what type of battery charging amperage & voltage profile do these chargers have?

3) Is the charge profile adjustable for different battery capacities and technologies?

4) Do these chargers include desulfinators / rejuvinators to maximize deep cycle battery life and capacity?

5) How many amps does the REV alternator put out at normal idle, fast idle and >2000 RPM?

6) Does the alternator have a multistep charge profile to prevent battery damage when charging at HWY speeds for > 8hrs?

7) is the AC battery charger built into the Xantrex PRO or Freedom inverter? Which one is standard for 2016?

8) What are typical vampire loads and which REV 24 switch settings reduce them and by how much?

9) How long after manufacture and or purchase are owners factory house batteries lasting?


Thank You to everyone for all the great posts on this subject.

Please feel free to cut and paste excerpts from other posts that I may have missed if you think a question has already been answered well in another thread or post.

-PanAmMan

1. The inverter does not charge the house battery. The PD converter charges the house batteries.

9. I think that depends on too many variables to give a reliable answer. How long on dealer lot and did dealer charge batteries regurally. Did previous owner take proper care of batteries. Your usage.