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Old 10-22-2019, 12:37 PM   #1
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Upgrade chassis

Is dynamax going to offer 4500 Mercedes chassis for isata 3
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Old 10-22-2019, 03:26 PM   #2
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We are not at this time. It is more money, but with reduced towing. We will continue to evaluate.
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Old 10-22-2019, 03:45 PM   #3
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The GCWR remains unchanged at 15,250. The GVWR does jump to 12,125.

But that means, if fully loaded, you can only tow about 3,000lbs. So Ford Fiesta, Toyota Corolla, Nissan Versa type vehicle. Not sure if any of those are flat towers.
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Old 10-22-2019, 04:01 PM   #4
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Telling people that the towing is reduced is potentially misleading. If I took a Sprinter 3500 and loaded it to 11,000 pounds, and also loaded a 4500 to 11,000 pounds, the available towing capacity is the same on either chassis. How is the 4500’s towing capacity less?

Compared to the 4500, towing capacity may well be less or impossible on the 3500 because the tongue weight is part of the cargo, and easily puts the 3500 over it’s GVWR.

Maybe the user only needs to tow 3000 pounds anyway, but could sure use a little more CCC. Or maybe the user doesn’t want to tow at all, but could really use the higher CCC of the 4500. Maybe they would gladly pay the upcharge to get that CCC.

This thread, http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...on-196548.html , showing an ISATA3 with a CCC of only 638 pounds is a prime example of why RV builders need to switch to the 4500. I think it's a safe bet that an RV with only a 638 pound cargo capacity will at some point be driven down the road overloaded.

I already had to pass over the ISATA3 because of it’s low CCC, so it really doesn’t matter to me so much, but I would reconsider one built on a Sprinter 4500. I dislike seeing people being potentially mislead about the 4500’s capabilities with simple statements like “reduced towing”. Smart customers will hopefully read the Sprinter 3500 and 4500 specifications and decide for themselves.
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Old 10-22-2019, 04:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bclemens View Post
The GCWR remains unchanged at 15,250. The GVWR does jump to 12,125.

But that means, if fully loaded, you can only tow about 3,000lbs. So Ford Fiesta, Toyota Corolla, Nissan Versa type vehicle. Not sure if any of those are flat towers.
Ford Fiesta is ~2500 pounds and Ford Focus is ~3000 pounds and are flat towable with manual or automatic dual clutch transmissions. We tow a Fiesta and it works well.

People aren’t just towing cars. A touring motorcycle in a cargo trailer would run around 3000 pounds. But as I suggested earlier, the 300 pound tongue weight would make it easily towable with a Sprinter 4500, but probably strain the CCC of a 3500 beyond it’s limit.
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Old 10-22-2019, 05:16 PM   #6
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Telling people that the towing is reduced is potentially misleading. If I took a Sprinter 3500 and loaded it to 11,000 pounds, and also loaded a 4500 to 11,000 pounds, the available towing capacity is the same on either chassis. How is the 4500’s towing capacity less?

Compared to the 4500, towing capacity may well be less or impossible on the 3500 because the tongue weight is part of the cargo, and easily puts the 3500 over it’s GVWR.

Maybe the user only needs to tow 3000 pounds anyway, but could sure use a little more CCC. Or maybe the user doesn’t want to tow at all, but could really use the higher CCC of the 4500. Maybe they would gladly pay the upcharge to get that CCC.

This thread, http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...on-196548.html , showing an ISATA3 with a CCC of only 638 pounds is a prime example of why RV builders need to switch to the 4500. I think it's a safe bet that an RV with only a 638 pound cargo capacity will at some point be driven down the road overloaded.

I already had to pass over the ISATA3 because of it’s low CCC, so it really doesn’t matter to me so much, but I would reconsider one built on a Sprinter 4500. I dislike seeing people being potentially mislead about the 4500’s capabilities with simple statements like “reduced towing”. Smart customers will hopefully read the Sprinter 3500 and 4500 specifications and decide for themselves.
Oh, I wish it were that simple, I truly do. If you could spend some time in my shoes, you would see that it is in your best interest to err on the side of conservative.

Saying that you have 12,125 lbs of GVWR and putting a 5k hitch on the back can also be misleading. We depend on the customer to balance their weights, sales people to properly inform them, neither of which happen more times than I care to count.

I dislike being sued over things that are clearly listed. I would rather say it has "reduced towing" and have someone ask me what that means, than to have them hear 12,125 and 5k hitch.

The Isata 5, has a 10k hitch. And flat towing, it can tow 10k. We clearly list the CCC on the sticker. We clearly state that the customer is responsible for not exceeding any of their capacities. That has not stopped a customer from suing us because they were not aware that they could not tow an 8,000lbs trailer AND carry full water (95 gallons) AND carry 6 people and all their cargo. They "thought" that a full tank of water was included and that they were only towing an 8k trailer...not even max. Why give us all of these things if we cannot use them.

I agree that if we build it just like we do today, and someone loads it JUST like they do today, they can tow 4,0000 lbs. BUT, that also means I have to at least put a 4k hitch on there for them to do that. What WOULD happen in many cases, is that someone would load up their coach to the full 12,125lbs. Then they WOULD tow a 4k jeep wrangler or something like that and if they were in an accident they would sue us stating that why give us all of that if they can't use it and their salesman did not make it clear to them.

I know this, because I have already seen it. I wish, with all my heart, every single person took personal responsibility. But that is not what happens and as soon as there is an issue, they are looking for someone to blame and there are 10 attorneys for every person, ready to take their case.
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Old 10-22-2019, 07:20 PM   #7
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Oh, I wish it were that simple, I truly do. If you could spend some time in my shoes, you would see that it is in your best interest to err on the side of conservative.

Saying that you have 12,125 lbs of GVWR and putting a 5k hitch on the back can also be misleading. We depend on the customer to balance their weights, sales people to properly inform them, neither of which happen more times than I care to count.

I dislike being sued over things that are clearly listed. I would rather say it has "reduced towing" and have someone ask me what that means, than to have them hear 12,125 and 5k hitch.

The Isata 5, has a 10k hitch. And flat towing, it can tow 10k. We clearly list the CCC on the sticker. We clearly state that the customer ios responsible for not exceeding any of their capacities. That has not stopped a customer from suing us because they were not aware that they could not tow an 8,000lbs trailer AND carry full water (95 gallons) AND carry 6 people and all their cargo. They "thought" that a full tank of water was included and that they were only towing an 8k trailer...not even max. Why give us all of these things if we cannot use them.

I agree that if we build it just like we do today, and someone loads it JUST like they do today, they can tow 4,0000 lbs. BUT, that also means I have to at least put a 4k hitch on there for them to do that. What WOULD happen in many cases, is that someone would load up their coach to the full 12,125lbs. Then they WOULD tow a 4k jeep wrangler or something like that and if they were in an accident they would sue us stating that why give us all of that if they can't use it and their salesman did not make it clear to them.

I know this, because I have already seen it. I wish, with all my heart, every single person took personal responsibility. But that is not what happens and as soon as there is an issue, they are looking for someone to blame and there are 10 attorneys for every person, ready to take their case.
Mr. Clemens, thank you for taking the time to explain the Sprinter 3500/4500 dilemma from your point of view.

I admire Forest River for publishing, in their Sunseeker and Forester brochures, a rough Unloaded Vehicle Weight and Cargo Carrying Capacity, along with GVWR and GCWR for their various models. This is a step in the right direction for informing buyers what they can actually expect for their motorhome’s capabilities. Tiffin, for example, in describing the Wayfarer, evades the truth, so to speak, by publishing only the GVWR, GCWR, and the 5000 pound hitch capacity. There is no mention of UVW. This likely sets the expectation that the buyer will be able to tow 5000 pounds, which in many cases is not true.

I have practically no legal expertise whatsoever, but maybe dealers and brochures could be more informative about weight ratings, and in that pile of paperwork that buyers sign when they purchase an RV, there could be a paper explaining their new RV chassis’s capabilities, that the buyer would acknowledge by signature.

The end result, from my point of view, is that the Sprinter 3500 is definitely a no-go, and the Sprinter 4500 is a possibility.
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Old 10-22-2019, 07:30 PM   #8
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I would love the extra capacity...our goal lately has been just to keep lowering the weight.

The issue is we're in a catch 22. For example. I would not let customers select certain options with other options due to the weight impact. Well, we had so many "well, if I do this, will you let me do this" and "I'll sign something that says I understand the CCC is only going to be XXX if you let me do this" and just plain confusion....I decided to stop being the parent and let them make their own decision. To help with that, I print the weight impact of EACH and every option on the price sheet. That way the customer is making an informed buying decision. Every item (other than aluminum wheels) takes away from the CCC.

Of course as soon as I did that...the very first retail order was every possible combination of options that I would not allow them to do prior to that.

I will say, the stuff crossing the scales lately have all been in the mid-700's, fully loaded. I think if we offer composite floor, we can save another 100 lbs?
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Old 10-23-2019, 01:08 AM   #9
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Thanks Brian, very timely post. I am currently trying to determine what to tow. I have always tried to keep in listed weight and load listings. Donít want to be one of those people you talked about! Thanks for all the education, itís appreciated.
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Old 10-23-2019, 08:58 AM   #10
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I wonder how many people know what "catch 22" means?


And, what is all this talk of personal responsibility? Next thing you know you'll be talking about bi-partisan cooperation!
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Old 10-23-2019, 09:03 AM   #11
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I wonder how many people know what "catch 22" means?


And, what is all this talk of personal responsibility? Next thing you know you'll be talking about bi-partisan cooperation!
I certainly hope that my buying demographic know what "Catch 22" means.

As for "personal responsibility". I think the issue is they don't see it in print and what they hear is "Personnel Responsibility". As in my personnel is responsible....for everything.
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