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11-11-2017, 07:06 AM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 918
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"The exception to this are some self-drilling screws that are manufactured for roofing applications."
These might be difficult to use in an RV as many usually include a cap over an O ring which is built in.
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11-11-2017, 07:28 AM
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#22
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 3,284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flycer61
Brian - first of all I want to let you know I am keenly aware of your struggles with the workforce pool available and am very sympathetic with what you have to work with. If my viewpoint is wrong then I will just accept it as my viewpoint. It is not my intention to tear down but to give honest feedback that will help with improvements. I can only base my viewpoint on specific personal experience which may not reflect across a wide margin. Only when others with the same experience as mine report back to you can you have a more complete picture of the situation. I'm just seeing something that you may want to address and giving you my opinion of what the problem appears to be.
Now let me give you a specific, non-technical, emotional viewpoint of how I feel when I look at a less than 2 year old Dynamax with the most beautiful paint job you could ask for. It had 4000 miles on it at this point in time.
I look up and see the awning mounting screws pulling away from the side with a gap between the mounting plate and the beautiful paint job. The leverage is now starting to flex the bottom portion of the bracket in and crushing that paint job. My body feels like someone is pulling a nerve from my neck all the way down to my man parts. I feel sick. What can I do? I know what I can do - I can make it better. I will take a lift and remove that pressure and then get up there and tighten those loose screws back up. To my surprise, at least half of the screws of this mounting bracket just go round and round and round but never tighten up. Why is that? They must have been put in like this from the beginning. Whether or not they go into an aluminum backer plate, whether or not they were installed as per manufacturers specs, they are stripped. Maybe the installer had a heavy trigger finger? I don't know but the awning is coming loose. This is not good, it looks bad, and it could cause an accident if it falls off going down the road.
As many of those stripped out holes are inaccessible from the inside, the method I used to make the repair was to insert stainless rods into the stripped holes and use #14 "lag" screws to tighten the brackets to the side. It is my opinion that if smaller pilot holes had originally been drilled into the side and backer plate and then "lag" screws had been used, the mounting would have been much more secure. How do I know this? Well, I have since driven the RV over 6000 miles and they are still holding tight.
I experienced the same type of problem when I replaced the slide rollers that you were kind enough to send me. Many of the "drill point" screws were just "stripped in" without any grip into the aluminum / wood mounting base. It is also my opinion that if a smaller pilot hole had been drilled first and then lag screws used, this would not have been an issue as far as the screws being stripped.
Can this problem be improved on an assembly line? I don't know. I do know that what I did worked for me.
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Depending on which Dynamax model you are referring to with the awning comment. The Force and Force HD are both built with a block at the top of the awning causing the gap. There is an entire thread about this topic somewhere, the awning manufacturer specified the installation. As for screws in the Dynamax, I had a few that backed out or were loose, I fixed it and moved on.
__________________
2023 Dynaquest XL 3700BD
Had...2018 Force HD, 2016 Force, 2014 Thor 33sw
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11-11-2017, 09:46 AM
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#23
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFred
"The exception to this are some self-drilling screws that are manufactured for roofing applications."
These might be difficult to use in an RV as many usually include a cap over an O ring which is built in.
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My point here wasn't to use roofing screws but rather to note that if you are going to be using the one step process that these bit tip screws were made for ,and, you are going to be drilling into wood or other soft, non-ferrous metals such as aluminum, then you need to find a screw where the diameter of the drill is much smaller than the threads. The problem, in my opinion, is that the screws being used are intended to go into steel and have a drill head diameter too close to the thread diameter. This is causing them to easily strip out. You can easily test my thoughts by taking one of these drill point screws that they are using and try drilling them into a block of wood or thinner aluminum plate. They don't do so well. Then, try drilling a smaller diameter pilot hole in the wood / aluminum first and follow up with a "lag" screw / bolt. The results will be noticeably better.
So, I believe if there is a screw available with a smaller drill point (similar to the roofing screws mentioned earlier) for this application, then they can continue to assemble with the one step process and get reasonably good results.
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11-11-2017, 10:17 AM
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#24
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: BoCoMo
Posts: 2,784
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Sheet metal screws that hold on the plastic fenders is a joke. The thin metal skirting is easily wollerd out and the screws flop around and do not hold the fender, that then gets damaged and broken. On my slide out side, the thin metal skirting is no way heavy enough to keep the slide attached fender from floppy all over the place when going down the road. The 'so-called' brace is a joke and does nothing to stop the flopping. I have had two fenders destroyed because of the bad design and assembly process. The second fender is held together with duck tape and will not be replaced because any new fender will quickly become trash.
__________________
Brother Les
2013 Forest River Salem Hemisphere SBT312QBUD
2001 CrewCab F-250 7.3 PowerStroke Diesel
SuperChip, BTS transmission, 6.0 Trans Cooler
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11-11-2017, 01:25 PM
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#25
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bclemens
...these guys are trying to carry multiple screws and limited pockets.
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Really? Seems like the Team Leader could solve that problem.
__________________
2016 Salem Hemisphere 302FK Showstopper
2017 Silverado 2500HD Duramax, LTZ, crew cab, Z71, 20" tires, TST 507 tire pressure monitor
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11-11-2017, 01:38 PM
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiverDennis
Really? Seems like the Team Leader could solve that problem.
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Yep, time out for the team, clarification and follow up, it is definitely a management/leadership issue...not trying to be rude, but realistic...I have been managing drilling rigs with 80-150 people on board at any one time for many years all over this ole earth...it all boils down to management and leadership...if you live with poor quality work, they'll keep doing it...I choose not to live with poor quality unprofessional work myself...
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11-11-2017, 03:02 PM
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#27
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Just as confused as you
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: south central Wisconsin
Posts: 5,108
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Quote, "Sometimes, its just a crappy screw. We have had to kick vendors out because their screws just plain suck."
This is very true. I retired from scrap recycling operating a car shredder. One time we got a 40' semi trailer full of boxes of 1-5/8 galvanized deck screws from a local manufacturer. Many of my co-workers thought they would be good for home projects, we were wrong. Every screw I tried would snap off before I got them screwed down.
__________________
Richard & Jill
2014 Flagstaff 832IKBS Classic Super Lite
2018 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab Z71 4WD All Star Edition
Camping since 1989, Seasonal since 2000.
Car Shredder Op/Tech, Scrap Metal Recycling - retired
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11-11-2017, 04:45 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTZ470
Yep, time out for the team, clarification and follow up, it is definitely a management/leadership issue...not trying to be rude, but realistic...I have been managing drilling rigs with 80-150 people on board at any one time for many years all over this ole earth...it all boils down to management and leadership...if you live with poor quality work, they'll keep doing it...I choose not to live with poor quality unprofessional work myself...
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I completely agree with this statement. It is ultimately the team leader's responsibility to ensure that these new hires understand the importance of screw types, their proper application, and the correct torque or predrilled pilot holes. It would be simple enough to pull all new hires aside and explain that once they are properly taught how to use the correct screws along with the theory and accompanied with a practical 5400 miles down the road customer driving it and **** falls off example, that if they are caught using the incorrect screws, or improperly driving any screws, that their first offense will be a suspension with a day of remedial training. The second offense would be termination. Period.
I paid $172,000.00 for my DX3 BH on September of 2016 and I too have had to replace numerous screws due to either the screws being over torqued and stripped out, or the wrong type of screws being used.
September 2017 bathroom skylight is cracking near all the screw locations.
September 2017 Bathroom door hinge screws stripped out.
September 2017 Driver side slide front side window sun shades dropped off due to stripped bracket screw holes.
July 2017 rear fiberglass cap to roof seal screw heads broken off.
April 2017 Microwave mounting bracket screws stripped.
April 2017 Driver side slide rear side window sun shades dropped due to stripped bracket screw holes.
February 2017 Driver side fuel tank valance/skirting drill screws stripped out thin sheeting. Had to use bolts and nuts.
February 2017 dash board cover screws over torqued and stripped plastic backing.
Everyone in the chain above the laborer shares some blame, but this is all primarily the low level team leader/supervisor's fault as they tend to want to be everyone's friend and not their boss. The low level supervisor typically finds it difficult to separate responsibly from friendship.
Overall I am really pleased with my DX3 as it gets the job done. I understand completely that this is a 33,000 pound house driving down the road relying on a lot of components such as screws and bolts to hold everything together. It IS going to require constant maintenance. I also do get some satisfaction while performing the maintenance on it myself. But, the screw situation needs to be resolved when it comes to the wrong screw type being used as well as them being overtightened and stripping the holes out. And thank you Bryan for standing up and dealing with the good and the bad on this forum as I can understand how tough your job is with all of the incoming fire that you have to withstand.
__________________
It is what it is. Deal with it, and get to fixing it. Anything is possible with enough time and or pressure.
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11-11-2017, 06:55 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 146
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I would think that if substandard help was knowingly be hired or you found that you had been using crappy screws you would try to take better care of the people that are paying the big money for these motorbikes instead of making excuses.
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11-11-2017, 06:57 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 146
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SPELL CHECK #*!% I meant motorhomes
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11-11-2017, 08:55 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdkbrooks
SPELL CHECK #*!% I meant motorhomes
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The topic here is about the quality of workmanship that has not yet reached the RV industry. It is far from that of the auto industry. All installed components have torque monitors for installation, etc.. The RV industry has a long way to go if it expects to satisfy mainstream america that cannot fix the constant shortcomings of manufacturing in the rv industry.
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11-11-2017, 09:18 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 146
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So the RV industry pays no attention to the auto industry and just does primitive pete.All I'm saying if you know there is a problem take care of your customers
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11-12-2017, 12:53 AM
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#33
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Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 23
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Amen! I have 2017 mbs 2401 that is loaded with stripped screws. I like the functionality of design, but QC is nonexistent. I hope Warren Buffet gets wind of this.
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11-12-2017, 02:25 AM
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#34
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6
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I know what you mean, in my new camper I have found in the speakers wood &drill point screws. Its a problem with quality control , I have brought this to the attention of the manufacturer. But again not just for this.
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11-12-2017, 07:41 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 918
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For re-attaching items that pulled out from poor choice of screws there are industrial duty rivets.
Think pop rivets but 10x stronger that hold commercial aircraft and 18 wheel truck trailers together.
The can be used , but require a far stronger puller , $80-$100 or so and they are probably 40 times as expensive as a self drilling screw.
SS or aluminum , your choice ,reach up tp 3/4 of an inch.
For small quantities these folks are OK.
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11-12-2017, 09:46 AM
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#36
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teich
I agree completely. Well done. I constantly find stripped screws that need replacing along with rusty screw heads that should be stainless.
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It should be a crime to use anything other than stainless fasteners anywhere on a motorhome. It would be great to have a competitor in the industry with the vision to see this as one detail contributing to real quality that buyers will seek and pay for gladly. Then it might seep into the rest of the market, like chicken with "No Antibiotics, Ever..."
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11-12-2017, 10:10 AM
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#37
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Glen Lyon,PA
Posts: 41
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Yes those screws suck, my slide motor fell off the wall where it was mounted on my Rockwood. I had to repair by using 2 metal plates sandwiching the wall with 4 bolts. It doesn't move now.Tha slide operates the way it should.
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11-12-2017, 12:16 PM
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#38
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Lancaster CA
Posts: 78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bclemens
Q: "Why are the wrong type of screws being used for the fastening of important components on the MH?"
A: Depends on location, I would need more info.
Q: "I see no problem when these are used properly to secure sheet metal into metal base material, but, this type of screw is being used to secure critical items such as the awning"
A: The awning gets screwed into 1/4" aluminum plate, per mfg instructions.
Q: (really more of a statement) "and slide rollers into soft wood or light gauge aluminum"
A: Slide rollers actually go into a wood stuffed aluminum tube. So sort of the same, but a wood screw would not work here.
Q: (again, more of a statement) "The assemblers are just following instructions from higher up"
A: Really? You think I run around telling guys to use one screw for everything cause its faster? I would gladly forward you emails...never mind. Here is one below. I was in the field and saw a counter extension that was not laying flat. I immediately emailed the production manager. It wasn't even the thread, but the head I pay attention to.
Q: "trying to get completed units out the door as quick as possible but it seems like someone would at least be concerned about the potential liability issue being created by this mis-application of a fastener. Hopefully it will be before someone's awning falls off while traveling down the highway."
A: I think have I have proven this statement inaccurate. You are certainly within your right to question my "Ability" to police screw usage, but not my desire or level of concern.
So now that we have cleared up false assumptions. What happens is people grabbing the wrong screws or just plain ignorance of screw differences. I couldn't even begin to count how many screws we inventory. Pan, wood, stainless, black, counter sunk, etc, etc. We train but as new people start you have to constantly reinforce what screw to use. When you go from metal to wood, to metal, to plastic, to fiberglass, these guys are trying to carry multiple screws and limited pockets. With the labor pool as it is...sometimes we need to hire some 20 somethings that don't have 30 years of experience in woodworking or metal. So you think telling them to go put this piece of trim on, would not be that big of a deal. Sometimes it is.
Sometimes, its just a crappy screw. We have had to kick vendors out because their screws just plain suck. Sometimes, you don't figure this out until you have run 100 or so units.
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Sounds like a political so each.
No politics here.
No excuses.
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11-12-2017, 12:26 PM
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#39
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Lancaster CA
Posts: 78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttramp
Sounds like a political so each.
No politics here.
No excuses.
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I meant politely speach.
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11-12-2017, 04:31 PM
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#40
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 3,284
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Stainless screws are soft, I would not want my entire motorhome made with stainless screws. Just my 2 cents.
__________________
2023 Dynaquest XL 3700BD
Had...2018 Force HD, 2016 Force, 2014 Thor 33sw
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