|
|
11-09-2017, 11:01 PM
|
#1
|
Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 35
|
Why are "Drill point" screws being used in wood?
Having had to replace several screws that appeared to have never been secure from the the time they were installed, I have to ask the question.
Why are the wrong type of screws being used for the fastening of important components on the MH?
Here is a direct quote from a manufacturer of drill point screws:
"Standard self-drilling tek® screws were never designed to go from metal to wood as the diameter of the hole that the drill bit will create will be close to the same diameter as the outside threads of the threaded portion of the fastener and will not allow the threads to tap into the wood to be secure."
I see no problem when these are used properly to secure sheet metal into metal base material, but, this type of screw is being used to secure critical items such as the awning and slide rollers into soft wood or light gauge aluminum. I have had to replace many of them with the proper type screws and repair damaged thread holes because my awning was threatening to fall off the side and the slide rollers were coming loose. Many of the screws you see on your MH are just non-functional decoration because they are "stripped" in by assembly workers with no regard for structural integrity. It is beyond my comprehension that this misapplication is allowed.
It is one thing to have quality control issues, new worker issues, etc but this is a total disregard for the manufacturer's instruction for the proper use of it's fastening product. The assemblers are just following instructions from higher up and trying to get completed units out the door as quick as possible but it seems like someone would at least be concerned about the potential liability issue being created by this mis-application of a fastener. Hopefully it will be before someone's awning falls off while traveling down the highway.
This is just my personal observation but I have read on the forum of others with similar problems of these screws not holding tight.
|
|
|
11-09-2017, 11:11 PM
|
#2
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 264
|
In many cases it's bloody Sheetrock screws!
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 06:51 AM
|
#3
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 165
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by xgarys
In many cases it's bloody Sheetrock screws!
|
I agree completely. Well done. I constantly find stripped screws that need replacing along with rusty screw heads that should be stainless.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 07:12 AM
|
#4
|
Pickin', Campin', Mason
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: South Western PA
Posts: 19,051
|
"Why are "Drill point" screws being used in wood?
Because it's quicker/cheaper for the worker/manufacturer to have a pocket full of one kind of screw and then just jam it into everything. Visit the assembly lines at the factories. It's all about speed.
__________________
2022 Cedar Creek 345IK 5th Wheel•Solar & Inverter•2017 Ford F-Series SCREW 4x4•Factory Puck•B&W Companion•TST Tire Monitor w/Repeater•Sinemate 3500w Gen.
F&AM Lodge 358 Somerset, PA - JAFFA Shrine - Altoona, PA
Days Camped ☼ '19=118 ☼ '20=116 ☼ '21=123 ☼ '22=134 ☼ '23=118☼ '24=64
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 07:18 AM
|
#5
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 918
|
To "properly drill a screw hole in wood requires a stepped bit.
Thin portion for the minor diameter of the screw , bigger hole for the shank, and perhaps a counter sink .
SPEED is the reason for using metal screws assembling a MH.
Production would require 2 drills , one with a proper drill bit , and a second to install the screw.
The MH builder does not value his products construction enough for him to PAY for the time it takes to reach for the second drill.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 07:54 AM
|
#6
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Payson, AZ
Posts: 3,859
|
and they screw them into the thin wood panels with no solid backing of any type behind it that the screw can bit into. or pneumatic brad nails to hold trim onto the thin wall panels.
__________________
2015 cardinal model 3825fl
2015 dodge ram 3500 dually
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 08:14 AM
|
#7
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Clarksville Va.
Posts: 10,422
|
all good answers, it's production not quality ...
__________________
Coachmen M/H
Concord
2018 / 300 DSC
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 12:22 PM
|
#8
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 333
|
I guess I have been lucky, no screw related problems after two camping seasons.
__________________
2017 Isata 3 on a 2016 Sprinter
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 01:32 PM
|
#9
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 172
|
Every spring is either:
-replacing with nuts and bolts
-replacing with hollow wall fasteners
-replacing with glue and screws
It's fast, it's easy, and after all, they hold for the first season, don't they.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 01:44 PM
|
#10
|
Commercial Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bristol, IN
Posts: 18,878
|
Q: "Why are the wrong type of screws being used for the fastening of important components on the MH?"
A: Depends on location, I would need more info.
Q: "I see no problem when these are used properly to secure sheet metal into metal base material, but, this type of screw is being used to secure critical items such as the awning"
A: The awning gets screwed into 1/4" aluminum plate, per mfg instructions.
Q: (really more of a statement) "and slide rollers into soft wood or light gauge aluminum"
A: Slide rollers actually go into a wood stuffed aluminum tube. So sort of the same, but a wood screw would not work here.
Q: (again, more of a statement) "The assemblers are just following instructions from higher up"
A: Really? You think I run around telling guys to use one screw for everything cause its faster? I would gladly forward you emails...never mind. Here is one below. I was in the field and saw a counter extension that was not laying flat. I immediately emailed the production manager. It wasn't even the thread, but the head I pay attention to.
Q: "trying to get completed units out the door as quick as possible but it seems like someone would at least be concerned about the potential liability issue being created by this mis-application of a fastener. Hopefully it will be before someone's awning falls off while traveling down the highway."
A: I think have I have proven this statement inaccurate. You are certainly within your right to question my "Ability" to police screw usage, but not my desire or level of concern.
So now that we have cleared up false assumptions. What happens is people grabbing the wrong screws or just plain ignorance of screw differences. I couldn't even begin to count how many screws we inventory. Pan, wood, stainless, black, counter sunk, etc, etc. We train but as new people start you have to constantly reinforce what screw to use. When you go from metal to wood, to metal, to plastic, to fiberglass, these guys are trying to carry multiple screws and limited pockets. With the labor pool as it is...sometimes we need to hire some 20 somethings that don't have 30 years of experience in woodworking or metal. So you think telling them to go put this piece of trim on, would not be that big of a deal. Sometimes it is.
Sometimes, its just a crappy screw. We have had to kick vendors out because their screws just plain suck. Sometimes, you don't figure this out until you have run 100 or so units.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 02:09 PM
|
#11
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 172
|
So then let's just agree on the wrong type of fastener, without worrying about the type of screw.
Inside window valence held to 3/16" cheap plywood with wood screw. One season and it falls out, solution, hollow wall fastener.
Panelling nailed to aluminum tube. After one season, breaks away, solution proper metal screws.
Minor annoyances, yes, not awning falling off, no, but still, after spending $30,000, why do I have to run around every spring replacing fasteners. Wear and tear I understand, but when the wrong "thing" is used, come on folks, spend 5 cents more and 30 seconds more to do it right.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 02:48 PM
|
#12
|
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Dunn, NC
Posts: 1,199
|
It's a habit
Quote:
Originally Posted by xgarys
In many cases it's bloody Sheetrock screws!
|
"Drywall" screws Can't help my self
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 03:27 PM
|
#13
|
Commercial Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bristol, IN
Posts: 18,878
|
RussPastuch
As a side note, it appears you have a trailer, but are posting in a motorhome sub-forum. While I'm not disagreeing with your comments, they would not necessarily apply to the Dynamax product thread you are in. We actually laminate our walls so we are not stapling paneling into aluminum.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 05:37 PM
|
#14
|
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 13
|
Fasteners
Don't feel alone! My previous 5er was 2010 Jayco lacked the use of properly engineered and applied fasteners throughout. Possibly there are no mfg. engineers employed by any of these 5er RV manufacturers.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 08:41 PM
|
#15
|
Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 35
|
Specific experience on loose fasteners
Brian - first of all I want to let you know I am keenly aware of your struggles with the workforce pool available and am very sympathetic with what you have to work with. If my viewpoint is wrong then I will just accept it as my viewpoint. It is not my intention to tear down but to give honest feedback that will help with improvements. I can only base my viewpoint on specific personal experience which may not reflect across a wide margin. Only when others with the same experience as mine report back to you can you have a more complete picture of the situation. I'm just seeing something that you may want to address and giving you my opinion of what the problem appears to be.
Now let me give you a specific, non-technical, emotional viewpoint of how I feel when I look at a less than 2 year old Dynamax with the most beautiful paint job you could ask for. It had 4000 miles on it at this point in time.
I look up and see the awning mounting screws pulling away from the side with a gap between the mounting plate and the beautiful paint job. The leverage is now starting to flex the bottom portion of the bracket in and crushing that paint job. My body feels like someone is pulling a nerve from my neck all the way down to my man parts. I feel sick. What can I do? I know what I can do - I can make it better. I will take a lift and remove that pressure and then get up there and tighten those loose screws back up. To my surprise, at least half of the screws of this mounting bracket just go round and round and round but never tighten up. Why is that? They must have been put in like this from the beginning. Whether or not they go into an aluminum backer plate, whether or not they were installed as per manufacturers specs, they are stripped. Maybe the installer had a heavy trigger finger? I don't know but the awning is coming loose. This is not good, it looks bad, and it could cause an accident if it falls off going down the road.
As many of those stripped out holes are inaccessible from the inside, the method I used to make the repair was to insert stainless rods into the stripped holes and use #14 "lag" screws to tighten the brackets to the side. It is my opinion that if smaller pilot holes had originally been drilled into the side and backer plate and then "lag" screws had been used, the mounting would have been much more secure. How do I know this? Well, I have since driven the RV over 6000 miles and they are still holding tight.
I experienced the same type of problem when I replaced the slide rollers that you were kind enough to send me. Many of the "drill point" screws were just "stripped in" without any grip into the aluminum / wood mounting base. It is also my opinion that if a smaller pilot hole had been drilled first and then lag screws used, this would not have been an issue as far as the screws being stripped.
Can this problem be improved on an assembly line? I don't know. I do know that what I did worked for me.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 09:11 PM
|
#16
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 597
|
While reading these posts I thought of all the screws I have put in over the years building things. You can have the right screw correctly engineered for the job and if it is overtightened (torqued), it will strip. Just like the guys strip out the lugs on trailer tires when they don't know what they are doing and use an air wrench. So, what if on the assembly line, the drivers are set for a torque that allows the operator to put in the screw until the clutch on the driver slips rather than just screwing the thing in until the screw strips? Ordering a lot of drivers at the same time you could get them at a reasonable rate and this might solve the problem of the "newbies" overdriving the screws while keeping production at a reasonable pace. Of course, the stuff being fastened together would have to be engineered to withstand a given amount of torque without stripping and that would be on the manufacturer to come up to/exceed those requirements. Just a thought.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 09:20 PM
|
#17
|
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 5,712
|
I love how the screw things to the frame. 1/4" thick....use 1 1/4" screw.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 09:28 PM
|
#18
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 597
|
X-2 on that.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 10:29 PM
|
#19
|
Commercial Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bristol, IN
Posts: 18,878
|
Flycer61 I'm not arguing with your observations, simply your assumption of intent.
|
|
|
11-10-2017, 11:29 PM
|
#20
|
Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 35
|
Point taken - I just assumed that the workers were instructed to use this type of fastener in these applications and that the type of fastener was mis-applied. I have no business making those statements.
Here is another quote from Tek Screws that might be something to consider:
"The exception to this are some self-drilling screws that are manufactured for roofing applications. The drill bit on those screws is very tiny, a #1 drill bit, and the diameter of the hole that the drill bit makes is substantially smaller than the diameter of the outside threads of the rest of the screw. This allows the threads to really bite into the material and allow the screws to self-tap into the metal or wood for a secure hold"
|
|
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|