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Old 05-21-2024, 10:32 AM   #1
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Xantrex Freedom Edition Live Stream (prep)

We had been planning on a live stream with Xantrex to go over many of the capabilities.

They had given me two examples of this for solar and electrical set ups.




The trick is, we would like it to be simple enough that "general" users would find it helpful, but also touch on some of the finer details. Sometimes, power users are so far down into the weeds, they are tweaking things that the typical user will never deal with, let alone understand.

I figured we would start with the list of questions Bearii posed, and a few more that got added after

* Proper inverter settings and options

* Proper shut down procedures for the entire setup

* Proper startup steps for the entire setup

* Proper long term storage issues, battery removal at what temperatures, etc

* What's the difference between the battery disconnect by the steps vs in the battery bay vs the solar disconnect and proper usage of each

* When should we put the battery in recovery mode and how to do it

* What should we see on the eGen SOC meter, best ways to use the meter for ongoing use and monitoring

* How should we use the Xantrex BMS app to monitor the batteries and what to watch for

* How should we use the Victron app to monitor the solar charging and what to watch for

* How should Firefly be setup and what to watch for

* How to restart a battery that drops offline

* Advantages of the Xanteex Remote Bluetooth Panel and how to add it to our system and using it

*Cell Over Voltage (COV) issue with Battery A that comes and goes and whether this battery may have a permanent issue if the COV does not rectify itself with a few charging cycles.

*PARENT and CHILD. I'd like to know which is Batt A, which is Batt B and how the system manages the two batteries in terms of discharging and charging during normal use.

*I also have questions about Firefly and Battery firmware versions and what version we should be using.
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Old 05-21-2024, 02:43 PM   #2
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This is excellent Brian...... thank you very much for getting the ball rolling!

I agree with you that you want to make sure a session like this hits home with the average owner / user. That is probably going to be 80 - 90% of your ownership.

There will be some guys like me who are tech geeks and like to get into the "weeds" and really understand how things work, how to get the most from the system and how to troubleshoot more complex issues before getting support involved.

Perhaps 75% of the session can be geared to the basics and questions for the "typical" owner / user. Then the last 25% of the session can be more of an advanced discussion with more complex questions from guys like me?

In any case, I think this is a great idea since the Freedom Edition is a new breed of motorhome.

Thank you once again for the leadership!
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Old 05-22-2024, 12:50 PM   #3
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This is great Brian! I'll keep watching for the date/time. Thank you.
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Old 05-22-2024, 04:10 PM   #4
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Brian, that list hits most of the things that I would be interested in.


You might add a bit more detail of the eGen Cell Details screen. For example the significance of the Yellow and Red highlighting. I know from speaking with Xantrex that Yellow is lowest temperature/voltage and highest temperature/voltage. Then use the difference in voltage to determine if the pack needs to be re-balanced, etc.


And also operation in high ambient temperatures and any concerns that there might be. Think Florida in the middle of a very hot summer. Or out West during summer.
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Old 06-10-2024, 08:53 AM   #5
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Live Stream is set for Wed June 26. I am pretty sure this will be on Youtube. Details to follow.

2pm EST
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Old 06-10-2024, 08:57 AM   #6
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Thanks Brian,


Looking forward to it. It looks like the 26th will be a travel day coming back from our first real trip with the new Freedom Edition. So hoping that the timing will work to be able to attend live.
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Old 06-10-2024, 09:05 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by bclemens View Post
Live Stream is set for Wed June 26. I am pretty sure this will be on Youtube. Details to follow.
Excellent! I have two more topics to add to the list. First a quick backdrop, currently camping at a campground with electrical hookup. I'm plugged in and using a Hughes Watchdog EMS. It got really hot yesterday, lots of rigs running AC, shore power dropped below the 101 volt threshold so the Watchdog killed the power. The rig immediately switched to battery, lights never even flickered, BUT the AC did not start back up. After a couple minutes the voltage recovered enough and the Watchdog turned the shore power back on. After a few more moments the AC automatically came back on. My question is shouldn't the rig automatically switched to full battery and started the AC back up on it's own?

Additional Topic #1: How to configure the coach so that it will automatically go to battery for the 120v side of the house, not just the 12v side when shore power is lost.

Additional Topic #2: What are the proper parameters on the Inverter for the Freedom Edition configuration and how to config them, with or without a Xantrex Remote Control panel.

Thanks Brian!!

-Dave
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Old 06-10-2024, 09:21 AM   #8
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Regarding the A/C restarting when switching to battery/inverter operation. Could it have been a case that the A/C was still in it's lock out period after power was removed, and since the shore power was restored after a couple of minutes and then the A/C restarted have been due to the A/C lock out interval for a restart having expired?


As I recall from reading the docs on the Inverter there is a mode where it will switch very quickly but that is not good for working with things that have motors, like A/C. I'm not where I can double check it, but I think that the preferred mode is "Appliance" and that has a slightly longer change over time.


Brian probably has a better read on this, but if the Inverter is configured for Appliance mode then the A/C would have likely seen the drop out of shore power and gone into the lock out period when the Inverter started providing power.


That is, of course, just a guess.
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Old 06-10-2024, 09:39 AM   #9
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Excellent!!!

I have a commitment but I am going to work around it to attend and start preparing my questions.

Appreciate you putting this together for us!
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Old 06-10-2024, 06:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burtbick View Post
Regarding the A/C restarting when switching to battery/inverter operation. Could it have been a case that the A/C was still in it's lock out period after power was removed, and since the shore power was restored after a couple of minutes and then the A/C restarted have been due to the A/C lock out interval for a restart having expired?


As I recall from reading the docs on the Inverter there is a mode where it will switch very quickly but that is not good for working with things that have motors, like A/C. I'm not where I can double check it, but I think that the preferred mode is "Appliance" and that has a slightly longer change over time.


Brian probably has a better read on this, but if the Inverter is configured for Appliance mode then the A/C would have likely seen the drop out of shore power and gone into the lock out period when the Inverter started providing power.


That is, of course, just a guess.
I was wondering this as well and I should have tried other things during that period like the microwave or TV. However, I kind of dismissed it because when the power came on it did start right up after that initial 30 sec so wait period. If this happens again I'll try some other appliances to see. Or if someone has other suggestions to test I'm open.
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Old 06-10-2024, 06:45 PM   #11
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I was wondering this as well and I should have tried other things during that period like the microwave or TV. However, I kind of dismissed it because when the power came on it did start right up after that initial 30 sec so wait period. If this happens again I'll try some other appliances to see. Or if someone has other suggestions to test I'm open.
I've had another coach with the Coleman-Mach A/C and the FireFly system. As I recall there was a compressor delay when 120V was removed. It would take a minute or two for the compressor to start again if shore power was applied.

Coleman-Mac does sell a plug in Delay Timer for coaches without a Thermostat Controlled Compressor Delay capability so that leads me to believe any compressor delay would come from the FireFly Thermostat.

I use the Progressive Dynamics Hardwired EMS. It has the option for a 15 Second Delay or a 2.25 minute delay when shore power is applied. I always set it to 2.25 minutes to protect the A/C compress (and the fridge compressor when I had a residential fridge). The downsize is the AC power won't come on in the coach for about 2 minutes after shore power is plugged in.

I will have to do a test when I get back to the coach and run the A/C and then cut shore power to see how it behaves.... and if the compressor will restart on its own after a period of time on the Inverter.

There is an Inverter Setting called Transfer Mode and there are two settings; APL - Appliance Mode and UPS - Uninterruptible Power Supply Mode.

Selecting APL- appliance sets the transfer time from line to battery to 20 ms. Selecting UPS (uninterruptible power supply) sets the transfer time from line to battery to 10 ms. NOTE: Do not connect motor loads when in UPS transfer mode.

The Default is supposed to be APL. I wouldn't think a 20ms interruption would be enough to stop the compressor but it may be enough to do it. They give a warning about using the UPS Mode for motors and I would think a compressor qualifies.
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Old 06-10-2024, 07:08 PM   #12
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I've had a couple coaches with the Coleman-Mach A/C and the FireFly system. As I recall there was a compressor delay when 120V was removed. Coleman-Mac does sell a plug in Delay Timer for coaches without a Thermostat Controlled Compressor Delay capability.

I use the Progressive Dynamics Hardwired EMS. It has the option for a 15 Second Delay or a 2.25 minute delay when shore power is applied. I always set it to 2.25 minutes to protect the A/C compress (and the fridge compressor when I had a residential fridge). The downsize is the AC power won't come on in the coach for about 2 minutes after shore power is plugged in.

I will have to do a test when I get back to the coach and run the A/C and then cut shore power to see how it behaves.... and if the compressor will restart on its own after a period of time on the Inverter.
The Hughes Watchdog monitors the line once it experiences an error condition such as low voltage. Once the line has been stable for at least 90 seconds it will turn on. After it turns on it takes about 4 seconds for the power to get applied to the coach as it will check for all the possible errors again. Then after shore power is restored there is still a lag of time before the Firefly will tell the unit to turn on. Once that happens there is the brief start up time where the fan powers up before the compressor is allowed to kick on. All combined I imagine it is plenty of time to avoid short cycling issues - maybe.

I'll try that test too. I'm a bit reluctant since the shore power is not actually lost, just the Watchdog doesn't trust it because it dipped below the voltage threshold. But as I think about it, since the Watchdog is the very first thing in the shore power sequence it really is simulating total power loss via it's disconnection. So I guess pulling the plug would be essentially the same scenario. Even if not it would be good to see if the AC comes back on. Ok, you convinced me, I'm off to try it out......
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Old 06-10-2024, 07:12 PM   #13
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The Hughes Watchdog monitors the line once it experiences an error condition such as low voltage. Once the line has been stable for at least 90 seconds it will turn on. After it turns on it takes about 4 seconds for the power to get applied to the coach as it will check for all the possible errors again. Then after shore power is restored there is still a lag of time before the Firefly will tell the unit to turn on. Once that happens there is the brief start up time where the fan powers up before the compressor is allowed to kick on. All combined I imagine it is plenty of time to avoid short cycling issues - maybe.

I'll try that test too. I'm a bit reluctant since the shore power is not actually lost, just the Watchdog doesn't trust it because it dipped below the voltage threshold. But as I think about it, since the Watchdog is the very first thing in the shore power sequence it really is simulating total power loss via it's disconnection. So I guess pulling the plug would be essentially the same scenario. Even if not it would be good to see if the AC comes back on. Ok, you convinced me, I'm off to try it out......
Last year in Alaska my EMS cut power numerous times when power was dropping to 104V.... usually when the big Class A's were trying to run everything they had. With my 2.25 minute delay, I didn't have to worry about the compressors.

When I got to those situations at some campgrounds, I would switch over to my Lithium batteries and run the A/C off my Inverter if running off the generator was not an option. I can say the Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 3000 had no problems running a Coleman-Mach 13,500BTU A/C unit.
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Old 06-10-2024, 08:16 PM   #14
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Ok, very interesting. Now keep in mind, this is not a true detailed testing scenario(s). I tried someone logical steps but after I went down the various paths I realized this could easily turn into one of those User Acceptance Tests we used to have users do for Oracle Financials or Telco Billing/Network solutions!

One note, thanks to Judge64's recommendation I added the Xantrex Remote Control Panel with bluetooth. As a result I can see everything on the app that is happening on the inverter, very handy with our oddly mounted inverter setup.

So here's how I started out:

Scenario #1:
Coach plugged into shore power, 120v power is fine, everything functions well - the Air Con is NOT running. The Firefly screen and the Xantrex app look like pics #1 & #2 (see labels in pics). Looks pretty normal to me. I have 100% SOC on both batteries on the eGen panel.

Scenario #2:
I shut off the shore power at the pedestal by throwing the 30a breaker. As you can see from pics #3 and #4 things switched over apparently seamlessly to run off the batteries. As you can see in pics #2 & #4 the load is not heavy, I have a small fan running 120v, that's about it. The Air Con was not running at the time of throwing the breaker. This is the kind of transfer I would expect. Inside the rig the microwave clock is still on, the remote control light on the TV is still on, etc. It appears as though the power transfer was seamless. Notice there is an alert showing in the #4 screen at the bottom. I thought I got a picture of it but I guess I didn't, it will show up again in a later pic. It said:
"UTILITY POWER NOT AVAILABLE/QUALIFIED. Utility power is not available or not qualified due to poor quality AC power. Poor quality AC power can damage or reduce life expectancy of appliances"


Since I cannot seem to attach more than five pics - check out the next post....
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Old 06-10-2024, 08:31 PM   #15
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Scenario #3:
Conveniently enough the Air Con came on at this point in my testing. Remember, we're on battery power, inverter running, the Air Con started up no issue and began doing it's business. You can see in Pic #5 there is no shore power and there is a significant draw to power the Air Con. Everything seems just fine, life is good in Freedom Edition land, no shore power no problem, let's keep it all running.

Scenario #4:
Air Con still running, I decided to turn the 30a shore power breaker on to see what would happen. After the Hughes Watchdog did it's checking it turned on the power to the coach. Everything kept going like nothing had changed, no hiccup in the Air Con, just kept pumping out cold air not even aware it's power supply had just switched back to the "grid". See Pic #6.

Scenario #5:
Air Con is happily doing it's business when I decide let's torture it a little. So I turned the 30a shore power breaker OFF. Oops, nobody likes this, not the Air Con, not the inverter, not the owner, nobody is happy. Everything on the 120v side shuts down. No lights on the microwave or tv - 120v is kaput. See pic #7. I can also hear the inverter beeping, hmmm, this doesn't sound good, maybe that was too much torture??

At any rate, I check out the Firefly and it says the Inverter is NA - what the heck is that?? NA - I'm telling you Mr. Firefly I can see the inverter and unlike Elvis it has not left the coach! Check out pic #8.

Ok, out of pics space, on to the next post....
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Old 06-10-2024, 08:51 PM   #16
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Scenario #6:
At this point I'm scratching my head so I took pics of all the inverter screens on the Firefly and all the screens on the settings of the Xantrex Inverter app. Then i went to check out the inverter. Open the door and sure enough, the Inverter definitely has not left the building but it is seriously pissed. The fan is screaming on the thing, it has to be running full blast. Hmmm... that doesn't seem good, it is caught in some loop?? So I do what any full blooded American male would, I shoot it dead!!! Ok, ok, not with a gun or anything but with the power of the mighty index finger I reach in and power it off. I let it rest for a minute and then using the Xantrex Remote Panel I turn it back on (see how I did that Chris to give the panel control - just like you explained).

The inverter starts up very nicely, no longer screaming and after an appropriate startup period where I'm sure it was sticking it's head over the trench to see if it was safe to come out... everything started working again. The Air Con came back on after an appropriate period with it's normal fan startup, brief pause then the condenser startup, etc.

In Pic #9 you can see the faults that occurred on the inverter side. Pics #10 and #11 show what was showing before and after restart on the Xantrex Remote panel. Pic #12 shows Mr Firefly who seems to have forgotten that Mr. Inverter was NA and is now happily showing Mr Inverter to be Enabled.

Given all the faults in Pic #9 my initial conclusion is that the inverter cannot seamlessly auto switch from shore power to battery with heavy loads running. Is there a setting that would allow that? Should we even want to allow that? I find it interesting that it can handle the heavy load hand off from battery to shore power but not reverse.

In the next couple of posts I'll include the other screens I took pics off for your reference.

What does everyone think, functioning as designed, it's a "feature" not a "bug"? Can Xantrex address this during our livestream?

One final note, during the inverter cycle the batteries did some weird stuff where apparently they went offline and came on one after the other - what the heck?
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Old 06-10-2024, 08:54 PM   #17
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Other pics taken of the Firefly panel showing Inverter pages when the Inverter was in the NA state on the Firefly. By the way, pressing the inverter button didn't seem to do anything, it looked like it was trying to restart the inverter but then would come back to NA.
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Old 06-10-2024, 08:56 PM   #18
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Here are the pics during the inverter being in LaLa land
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Old 06-10-2024, 09:09 PM   #19
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Last year in Alaska my EMS cut power numerous times when power was dropping to 104V.... usually when the big Class A's were trying to run everything they had. With my 2.25 minute delay, I didn't have to worry about the compressors.

When I got to those situations at some campgrounds, I would switch over to my Lithium batteries and run the A/C off my Inverter if running off the generator was not an option. I can say the Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 3000 had no problems running a Coleman-Mach 13,500BTU A/C unit.
I imagine I'll be doing the same on our trip as well. Sure glad I have it to work with. Here at our little campground we happened to hit 93 degrees yesterday and several big fifth wheels came in to overnight in our loop. Obviously it tortured the electrical system in the park. Good practice for AK though
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Old 06-10-2024, 09:14 PM   #20
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...There is an Inverter Setting called Transfer Mode and there are two settings; APL - Appliance Mode and UPS - Uninterruptible Power Supply Mode.

Selecting APL- appliance sets the transfer time from line to battery to 20 ms. Selecting UPS (uninterruptible power supply) sets the transfer time from line to battery to 10 ms. NOTE: Do not connect motor loads when in UPS transfer mode.

The Default is supposed to be APL. I wouldn't think a 20ms interruption would be enough to stop the compressor but it may be enough to do it. They give a warning about using the UPS Mode for motors and I would think a compressor qualifies.
You can see in my pics of the Xantrex settings that the Transfer Mode is set to Appliance. Unfortunately it does shut off the Air Con on this coach when going from shore power to battery. It does not shut off the Air Con when going from battery to shore power.

I'm sure glad I have the Remote panel - makes it so much easier to see what is happening! Thanks for the suggestion. What do you think of all the other settings? Any suggestions?
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