F-150 PowerBoost towing a 33' Hemisphere 26BHHL ?

[Chuck_S]

You think manufacturers list maximum frontal area because they are concerned about a fuel economy number that they don't have to test for?

Frontal area is about wind resistance and the load it places on the tow vehicles systems.

It's a consideration, nothing more. Fuel use gets dramatic as air resistance increases. And is all anyone will see. No warnings or even hints of anything but reduced performance.

Frontal area considerations (not warnings):

Frontal Area is
the total area in
square feet that a
moving vehicle and
trailer exposes to
air resistance. The
chart shows the
maximum trailer
frontal area that must
be considered for a
vehicle/trailer
combination.
Exceeding these
limitations may
significantly reduce
the performance of
your towing vehicle. (Emphasis added.)(Ford towing guide.)

Followed by a chart of vehicles and areas to consider. 60sf to 75sf is about the maximum. An 8' wide camper 10' high exceeds every one of the considerations.

Frontal area considerations are a CYA -- don't blame us.

-- Chuck

[Snooker_ML]

Well you have all given me great information. Thank you.

In terms of only paper calculations, I think I have found my mistake on my trailer tongue weight calculation. I figured it this way:
A) That the propane, battery and WDH (hitch) would be added to the trailer weight to get the total trailer weight (7500#). Then I took 12% of 7500# and the tongue weight would be 900#.

B) Instead, should I not include the WDH in the trailer weight, which would make the trailer 7300# and 12% is 876# and then add the 200# WDH which gives 1076# for tongue weight. Friends have told me that since the hitch is right at the front of the trailer you should add it in directly. I guess that makes sense but then where do you stop with this idea? The propane and battery is only a couple of feet further back, etc?

So is A) or B) the correct way to estimate this? Now it seems like B).

I've read that even on a tandem trailer, you should basically look at it as a single location for front vs. rear weight distribution. I'm wondering how much of a teeter totter or balance effect this has? And mine is a wide stance there's that as well.... The rear length is much shorter than the front so putting the same weight in the rearmost storage and very little in the front, couldn't it possibly unweight the front a bit and still keep it around 10-12% tongue weight. Also my water tank is behind the rear axle quite a bit.

As to how much my gear in the trailer weighs, I'm really gonna keep it down, however I'll try a new calculation:

Loaded trailer weight=
6700# dry trailer spec
100# propane & battery
400# water
400# gear
-------
7600#

Now here is the estimation part. If I figure the tongue weight so far is 760# then I add on the 200# hitch and get 960#. This is below the tongue spec of 1400# (I know, this is not the point, but I originally calculated 900#).

For truck payload I will carry nothing but 2 people and minimal gear and I allowed 500# for this. So the Load is 960# + 500# = 1460# which is below Payload spec of 1489#.

For truck rear axle GAWR of 4150#. I was guessing the trailer with 1076# trailer tongue weight may transfer 1100# onto the actual axle weight, but the load in the front (of 500#) may only load the axle maybe 200#. So I'm adding 1300# onto the rear axle and I'm guess thats a problem but Ford does not break down the Curb weight for the axles separately so I'll have to weigh it.

For this particular discussion of just calculations on paper, where is this incorrect? One thing to add is that we are retired and honestly won't be adding a lot of payload. It's a shame cuz the trailer is huge and the truck bed is empty but we are planning on this and I think it is somewhat close.

THANKS !

[Bob K4TAX]

In looking at the published specs for that trailer, the empty weight at the factory is 6688 lbs. The cargo weight is 3002 lbs for a gross weight of 9690 lbs. I know you say, just the 2 of you and you'll load it lightly. But you'd be surprised how much "stuff" one typically puts in their trailer.

I suggest you go to the exact trailer and look at the label on the side. It gives the real numbers. Remember the dry weight means NOTHING in terms of calculations because you have to add 2 batteries, two propane tanks, WDH, and such.

At 9600 lbs and 12% that's 1163 lbs tongue weight. Put the weight of the WDH where ever you wish, but I say, you won't have enough truck to pull that trailer safely.

Bob

[Mike134]

Originally Posted by Chuck_S

It's a consideration, nothing more. Fuel use gets dramatic as air resistance increases. And is all anyone will see. No warnings or even hints of anything but reduced performance.

Frontal area considerations (not warnings):Followed by a chart of vehicles and areas to consider. 60sf to 75sf is about the maximum. An 8' wide camper 10' high exceeds every one of the considerations.

Frontal area considerations are a CYA -- don't blame us.

-- Chuck

What is interesting about Ford's towing guide and frontal area it doesn't matter if it's a F150 2.7L or a F550 dually, all have a suggested limit of 60sq ft for a bumper pull.

[tomkatb]

Having a structural engineering background I remember most of this. Loading the rear of the rv up may be a bad plan. Get the front light enough and you get sway! That is bad.

SAE tests have nothing to do with gas mileage. It is stopping and accelerating to speed. You might want to read the spec. It is boring.

As this trailer exceeded SAE specs for frontal area in the engineering world that means it did not pass. Maybe by a little, maybe enough to get you in trouble.

When you travel more than 100 miles you will add a tool box and tools. You need three adapters and an ems. Extension cords. A drill. 4 chairs. Maybe a fan or two. Antifreeze. Generator. Drill. Air compressor. Gas for the generator. Pots and pans. Plates and a drawer of silverware. #100 of groceries and ice. First aide kit. Water hoses. Manuals. Cleaning supplies. A tarp. Stuff adds up fast.

Hitch weight adds up. Every pound matters.

This rv would concern me. We are often on the road for months.

You will not like the ride. I have broken all the rules in the past. Been towing since 1964.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by Bob K4TAX

In looking at the published specs for that trailer, the empty weight at the factory is 6688 lbs. The cargo weight is 3002 lbs for a gross weight of 9690 lbs. I know you say, just the 2 of you and you'll load it lightly. But you'd be surprised how much "stuff" one typically puts in their trailer.

I suggest you go to the exact trailer and look at the label on the side. It gives the real numbers. Remember the dry weight means NOTHING in terms of calculations because you have to add 2 batteries, two propane tanks, WDH, and such.

At 9600 lbs and 12% that's 1163 lbs tongue weight. Put the weight of the WDH where ever you wish, but I say, you won't have enough truck to pull that trailer safely.

Bob

We currently have a 26' Thor Tiburon on a dually Mercedes Sprinter chassis. It has a Cargo Carrying Capacity of a measly 800# and we have never exceeded that (very little water). I weighed it before and after on CAT scales. There is NO way I would have bought this trailer if I thought I would put the allowed 3000# of cargo on it (including propane, batteries, WDH as well), realizing up front the tongue weight would have been way too much for a F150. There are reasons we had to go with a bed in the back but it's just the 2 of us and it will be a big empty trailer by most people's standards.

I know my post was long but I just listed every single thing you mentioned in my estimates. You are correct I need to go take a photo of the actual trailer sticker and I will. But certainly with all my calculations I don't see why you think I'm not adding any load weight values onto the dry weight.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by Mike134

What is interesting about Ford's towing guide and frontal area it doesn't matter if it's a F150 2.7L or a F550 dually, all have a suggested limit of 60sq ft for a bumper pull.

That is interesting! and I verified it as well, in the Ford RV and Trailer Towing Guide, (for others to see) I copied this:


Vehicle: F-150 Pickup
Trailer Frontal Area Limitations/Considerations

60 sq. ft.
Any Powertrain with Trailer Towing Package or Payload Package and
Trailer Towing Ratings 7,701 lbs. and greater

75 sq. ft.
All 5th-Wheel and Gooseneck Applications with any Powertrain with
Trailer Towing Package or Payload Package

This trailer has a nice sloped lower drag front nose to it. So at least that will help since the other issues are enough of a concern and i will focus on them.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by tomkatb

Having a structural engineering background I remember most of this. Loading the rear of the rv up may be a bad plan. Get the front light enough and you get sway! That is bad.

SAE tests have nothing to do with gas mileage. It is stopping and accelerating to speed. You might want to read the spec. It is boring.

As this trailer exceeded SAE specs for frontal area in the engineering world that means it did not pass. Maybe by a little, maybe enough to get you in trouble.

When you travel more than 100 miles you will add a tool box and tools. You need three adapters and an ems. Extension cords. A drill. 4 chairs. Maybe a fan or two. Antifreeze. Generator. Drill. Air compressor. Gas for the generator. Pots and pans. Plates and a drawer of silverware. #100 of groceries and ice. First aide kit. Water hoses. Manuals. Cleaning supplies. A tarp. Stuff adds up fast.

Hitch weight adds up. Every pound matters.

This rv would concern me. We are often on the road for months.

You will not like the ride. I have broken all the rules in the past. Been towing since 1964.

I respect and appreciate your thoughts.
I also posted a picture of the front, and the effective frontal area, don't know how to calculate that, but an 8x8? flat wall vs a dual taper like I showed, certainly is less than Ford's 60 sq.ft. spec.
I don't understand the basis for your comment "As this trailer exceeded SAE specs for frontal area"... why do you say this? And if this trailer exceeds it then doesn't about every trailer, even much lighter ones still have a big front on them, I didn't understand your thoughts.

I posted a couple of replies above about why I believe I can keep the trailer cargo weight down to my estimates. We need this trailer for it's 2 sleeping areas and it is longer than I wanted but we won't load it up. I understand stuff adds up fast but my numbers are close.

We are not on the road for months and I promise you I know how to leave stuff at home. I toured Mexico offroad SOLO for 5 weeks on a 650 adventure motorcycle at age 60 and all my repair and camping gear fit into my soft bags. I know the RV life is different and a bigger scale, this is just an example of my mindset.

Could you comment on my 2 examples A) and B) in my recent post, as to the proper way to add the weight of the WFH onto the tongue weight calculation?

Finally, I am well aware of loading the rear and causing the front end to be too light. But moving weight around in order to get the front at 10-15% of the trailer weight is what you have to do, and I was asking, "ok so if the tongue weight is too high (e.g. 20%), and since my water tank is in the back I was asking about using water to weigh the back and therefore decrease the front until it got into the 10-15% range. It may not work but I wanted to know if you thought weighing the back would affect the front like a single axle teter totter lever (based on relative lever lengths of front being much longer than rear it may not do much).

Thanks.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by bikendan

The fictional dry tongue weight is already 890lbs. So there's NO way it'll be 900lbs, when loaded for camping.
Add that it's nearly 34ft long, I would never tow that length of trailer with a F150 and I own a F150 3.5 Ecoboost with the Max Tow package.
I'll bet that when subtract the weights of everyone in the vehicle(including the driver), truck cargo and the WDH, then the trailer's batteries, water, dealer add-ons and trailer cargo, you'll be over the truck's payload capacity.

That's the kind of relevant information I was looking for, with a similar F150, thanks. However I don't know the actual dry tongue weight, I need to measure it. <edited> I guess you got 890 from 6700 *13%, hence fictional.

DOES ANYBODY HAVE AN ACTUAL DRY TONGUE WEIGHT FOR THIS TRAILER?
I have not picked mine up yet it is on the dealer's lot for now.

I FIRST added all the added on weights to the dry weight of the trailer and summed it all up, THEN I took 10-15% and got the tongue weight; But I guess everyone is telling me that the WFH, propane and battery is so close to the hitch ball that you don't figure it that way, you add it directly to the dry tongue weight, effectively you are adding 100% of the weight of these items, not 10%, huge difference!

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by llr

That is between my prior TT and my current, based on my experience with both in a truck that is better equipped for towing, I would not do it, but I have more concern about the sway although the pro pride should help. I had a Blue ox at the time.

I also agree the actual TW will be higher, almost for sure over payload and maybe over rear axle which I would be more concerned with. The dealer should allow a test drive that includes a scale stop unless it is a very long distance.

Are you saying this based on my proposed wet trailer weight of 7500 - 8000#, or assuming that I fill it to its max capacity of 9700?

I can do a tongue weight measurement dry at the dealer. And <surprise!> I bought the described 2023 F150 Powerboost last night, so I will weigh the rear axle dry tomorrow. That does not mean I should stop doing my weight calculations, I need to know how close I am or if it just won't work safely.

I too have sway concerns.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by glen1971

Are you sure the fresh water tank is in the rear of the trailer? On our 2020 26BHHL, it is over the axles. Do you have 2 - 20# tanks in your tongue weight? We upped ourselves to 2 - 30#. The front cubby holds a lot and you'd be surprised at the weight of everything. What does your hitch weigh, ad that will count in your 89#.
IMO, you are underestimating the weight of the trailer, and over estimating the truck. We sold our Z71 1500 and went to a 2500 GMC before we bought this trailer. You may be able to get it moving, but will it be sale to stop it safely? Steer like a motor boat? Will you have your foot in the radiator doing 30 mph up a hill?

Do you have any idea what your 26BHHL tongue weight is when completely unloaded? How about loaded?

Mine has the water fill on the rear wall and it looks like the water tank is under the rear bunk as it is all closed off, there is no way it could be over the axles as the slide out w/furniture is there.

My long calculation above did include propane and battery and WDH.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by glen1971

One more thing to consider. When I was looking at a truck a few years ago, the dealer was trying to sell me something other than a Z71. When he asked why I said because it comes with the transmission cooler and higher rated towing capacity. He showed me one and said this one tows everything the Z71 can. After a few minutes of reading the brochure, I asked him if he was going to be upgrading the rear end for free? He asked why? After showing him how the capacities changed with the gearing, he said he never noticed that before.

Point being, make sure you know what you are buying, and that it is what you are expecting, and not what dome dealer is trying to sell you.

I do know what I am buying and I've checked actual Payload stickers on models I looked at. But you bring up a valid point I didn't quite understand with the F150 choices: comparing the same Max tow package on the
EcoBoost vs PowerBoost (hybrid):
the rear axle is 3.55 vs. 3.73:
and the resulting max Payload spec is 2100 vs. 1830.

I figured this was due to the additional hybrid motor and battery, and inverter, but maybe the axles have different load ratings as well. It's too much too look into but I wonder why they changed rear axles for the hybrid.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by GolfingDave

2018 F150 3.5 Ecoboost, 5.5 Foot Bed, Max Tow Package.
1855 Payload Capacity 7000 GVWR

Towing 28 feet tip to tip, 900-1200 lbs tongue weight depending on water level. Keep it at 900-1000 as there has not been any reason yet to add more water. Trailer weight is around 6700 lbs

I am very close to my limits for axle weights towing per the CAT scale. Just me, no other passengers and whatever gear I have in the bed.

If I had known I was going to buy a trailer I would have at least gone with a longer bed as the wheel base is a bit longer and I believe it tends to bring the payload up some if I recall. And a few extra inches adds more stability.

I would not tow more than a 30 footer(over all length) with my truck. I read people say they pull well over 30 footers and do not feel it. I don't believe them. I can tell I am pulling a good size load, especially with some wind although never has moved the truck.

Truck and trailer handle fine with a Husky four point WDH. Never had a sway from a semi yet. But I am one to do 55 in the right lane all the time, mainly for fuel savings as I am in no hurry. Came down some decent hills in Alabama just recently without a problem for the first time. Was curious as to how that would go.

BTW, I had a loaded cargo trailer sway on me years ago pulling it with an E250 van in the hills of Tennessee. Never want that to happen again.

Thank you, this specific and relevant info really helps a lot. Do you also have the HDPP? (Heavy Duty Payload Package). I assume not if your Payload Capacity is "only" 1855.

So you have an exact example, you say you have had tongue weight of as high as 1200#. When you weighed at the CAT and were very close to your axle limits do you know if you had the high 1200# tongue weight or less? That is the EXACT information I'm looking for. thank you.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by tomkatb

Your tongue weight will be 890+hitch plus equalizer for about #1100. Of course you will need two big batteries for another #150. Plus propane might be nice. Another #80. Total #1330. Not including the DW nor you nor #50 of misc.

Visit a cat scale near you. The will give you the weights on both axles. You can see if the sticker is correct.

So you should be well over the listed payload.

The front of the rv is 80 sf. Therefore exceeds SAE secs thus does not meet testing criteria. See Ford literature.

Then too this is an extremely long trailer for a half ton truck. The fancy, heavy hitch will help. But, too long for me.

On a nice sunny day it might be great. Might be ok other times.

Likely it will need air bags or overloads. The truck must not squat.

On long trips you will be stressed.

My DW loves her short bed Ram diesel. Drives it daily. Drives like a truck!

Mainly I have the same question as earlier. It makes a huge difference in calculations if you take the dry trailer and add on all the added weight (WFH, propane, battery) + gear FIRST, and then do the 10-15% calculation... OR take the 890 assumed dry tongue weight and then add these directly to it first and THEN do the 10-15% calculation. It makes sense that these 3 items (not the other gear) should be added at 100% effectively, since they are so close to the ball hitch point. Perhaps you could elaborate, but I think I miscalculated.

As far as squat, do you agree that air bags do not help relieve the axle weight, meaning the axle will weigh the same and you must not overload the GAWR. If true, then air bags are there to level the "bed" so headlights are aimed correctly or for what other reason? Do they actually reduce the load stress in any meaningful way? I wouldn't think so.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by Theb2b

Been there, thought my Ram 1500 could tow a Rockwood 2612WS with an Equalizer hitch. While I was just under payload it was still a handful in cross winds and around semi's.

What got me was I thought with the TT only being a couple feet longer and 1,000 lbs heavier than my Jayco it would be no problem but it presented enough surface area to make it ungainly. Purchased a 2500 huge improvement in handling.

Your comments make me think getting the ProPride 3P hitch would compensate for the issues you mentioned. In fact, until I learned about it, I was not even considering a 1/2 ton. Sway is nothing to take lightly, to me it is a bigger deal than maxing out the payload and axle capacities. (I said maxing out, not exceeding

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by Mike134

Nobody worries about brakes. If they did you think they would be pulling those huge 5th wheels with just a 1 ton truck?

The guy pulling 16000 lbs with a 1ton is in just as much trouble as the 1/2T pulling 8000lbs if the trailer brakes fail.

Oh and in the Ford line the 1 ton brakes are the same size as a 3/4 ton.

I agree, otherwise how could Ford rate my exact unit for 12,400 towing capacity? That is based on engineering, even if fudged a bit for marketing wars, and I will not be close to that. Not worried too much about brakes, except that I do live in Colorado

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by Homebrew

We all know he is at the dealership making a deal on the F150 🤣

Tell your wife (or whomever) that you were..

EXACTLY RIGHT !

I drove home with a 2023 F150 PowerBoost last night. They are so hard to find on the lot, and I searched a 500 mile radius, and there was one locally that was special ordered and then cancelled and was still marked as SOLD in the Ford online search system so it did not show up. Plus the last day of a slow month so I went for it.

Now I'm trying to see if I can make this work, otherwise I would have kept asking more questions and waited for answers. I was not expecting to buy it yet.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by Bob K4TAX

The OP indicates, by model, this is over 9000 lbs of trailer to tow. The hitch weight will be between 1100 and 1300 lbs. No way a 1/2 ton, regardless of how it is equipped, will be adequate nor safe to tow that much trailer.

I've said it before, our full size 1/2 ton with factory tow package and our 7600 lb gross trailer with WDH at 26 ft behind it is all the truck wants to handle. Even then, we have to be conscientious in loading the trailer and the truck.

Bob

I would have to load the trailer with 2700# of permanent equipment and gear to reach 9000#. There is NO way I will let it be over 8000# and I'm aiming for 7500#, my situation will not allow it and just because the trailer can be that heavy and my towing capacity is plenty, does not mean I will do it.

I'm old enough to know better, trust me and help advise me based on the parameters I've given and not that I'll carry more crap than I really need to. Like I said earlier, my current RV is a Thor Tiburon on a Sprinter chassis and has something like 800# of CCC Cargo Carrying Capacity right on the sticker. I have not overloaded that yet, though the rear axle GAWR has been over.

[Snooker_ML]

Originally Posted by Chuck_S

It's a consideration, nothing more. Fuel use gets dramatic as air resistance increases. And is all anyone will see. No warnings or even hints of anything but reduced performance.

Frontal area considerations (not warnings):Followed by a chart of vehicles and areas to consider. 60sf to 75sf is about the maximum. An 8' wide camper 10' high exceeds every one of the considerations.

Frontal area considerations are a CYA -- don't blame us.

-- Chuck

My take on Ford's statement about "reduced performance" is that the word "performance" is not about fuel efficiency but the Written In Print specs like Towing Capacity, which is directly affected by this drag. IMHO

[Snooker_ML]

In my prior research I found a lot of encouraging posts for combination of TV and TT similar to mine. I'm evaluating them all, good or bad, and my career was as a design engineer working with a lot of margin, so all of this goes against my nature. But if it seems doable with limitations (traveling light) I went ahead and proceeded with my F150 purchase. I know it is better and safer to go with a F250 or similar, margin is good, but I haven't given up yet until I hook it all up and try to measure and move weight around.

Here is an example of a post that sounded encouraging as he lists actual loaded tongue weights, what do you think? https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...ml#post2615641