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Old 11-27-2021, 03:43 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Mythplaced View Post
I call BS on the price increase of 50%. Extrusion management technology can easily hold ID and OD tolerances of +/- .005", and holding tighter tolerance actually reduces cost due to less material variance. True the extruder might need to be "slowed down" to optimize the process, but in my experience the optimization of process results in lower costs and fewer customer issues.

This company has a poor attitude about process control, and just "pumps the stuff out as fast as they can".
If you run for president, I'll vote for you

edit: So, you are saying that you can manufacture a 4'x8' sheet of material, 5mm thick, and do it within 5/1000 of an inch of the nominal size in both critical dimensions - and do it for the same cost that the two current manufacturers are cranking out crap at? I think I know a way that you can get rich.

If you can output 4x8 sheets of corrugated plastic (extruded fluted polypropylene) at $15/sheet retail, and do it with four 90 degree corners and any level of size accuracy/consistency, I know at least 6,000 sign shops who will buy exclusively from you. You could probably even price at a small premium and be the sole supplier to the industry. The shops that I work with waste an enormous amount of labor and materials every day due to the poor quality of this product. There are even a couple of vendors who buy oversized sheets (5x10) and cut them down to 4x8 and then resell them as "true to size", but the cost goes up to more than $20/sheet.

If you want to write up a business plan, I will line you up a *pile* of investors.
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Old 11-27-2021, 07:43 PM   #22
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There is no way with the reports of quality would I buy new today. Also, the cost has gone up along with all the 2020 years forward. I could list all the cuts of stuff deleted and cheaper quality replacement, but I've done that in previous posts. People are getting screwed over good with the 2020-2022 models. I feel sorry for anyone buying new.
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Old 11-27-2021, 09:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Too Tall View Post
Other than the possible location, these units have pretty much the same equipment made by Suburban, Coleman, Dometic etc..

My next one will not be a Forest River. The only reason I'm keeping this 2014 is I fianally got all the bugs out of it. But that said, every trip I come back with a list of repairs.
Grand Design seem pretty nice. Jayco seems about on par with FR.?

How can you ever get all the bugs out when you come back with a new one every time you camp. You don't think Grand Design has a list of items that don't work.'.. My first question would be the tank sensors???? Ha.... Just wondering....
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:51 AM   #24
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You can't lump FR in as if it is one manufacturer. FR is just a corporate owner of many brands. These brands are built at many different factories in different locations by different people using different materials with many different designs. In addition many of the issues people encounter is with the appliances. The same appliances most other manufacturers use. I'm not saying FR brands are better than the competition just that you need to look at the build of each brand.
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:48 PM   #25
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I’m considering purchasing a new or slightly used larger rv. I’m wondering though with gas prices only continuing to go up, will this hurt the rv industry and possibly lower the prices on them. Will there be more used rvs hitting the market because people can’t afford them with the higher inflation costs? I remember this happened before when gas prices spiked approximately 2007.
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Old 11-29-2021, 07:44 PM   #26
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Rv quality

Agree with the comments about process control and quality. The word quality is not in the tool box of the rv industry. What is in their tool box is put out as many as possible for the lowest dollar output and let the dealerships and customer put up with the rework for poor quality. Someday this will come back to haunt the rv industry and then maybe things will change. Plus the excuse that these are put through trying environments is BS as well
After all these are units that are supposedly designed to be towed/driven and lived in but reality is they aren’t because that would entail a real
Quality design and after all what would motorhome actually mean one shouldn’t drive it cause it isn’t really a motorhome. Maybe in our life times it will
All be real but
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Old 11-30-2021, 06:01 AM   #27
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I guess I’m one of the lucky ones. We bought a brand new Flagstaff 29RSWS in the summer of 2020. Over the past 1.5 years we’ve taken it out around 15 times. Plus use it with the grand babies on a regular basis while at home.

Knock on wood, we’ve had no major issues at all and almost no minor issues as well.

I do baby the rig. Keep it clean. And I try to perform regular preventative or life extending maintenance.

The only thing that would ever make me consider buying a new unit would be if we ever wanted to step up to a larger 5th wheel. But I don’t know if I will ever want to spend that kind of money.
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:41 AM   #28
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Window ac

It sounds like your major issue is the noise of the air conditioning unit. I’m somewhat infamous for suggesting that you can put in an expensive window AC unit in the tilt out window. It’s much quieter and has a low power draw so it will run longer off an inverter. I have also made several mods to the rooftop A/C to make it a little quieter. There are quite a lot of YouTube videos on that subject. I could not find the ac unit you referenced. Spel chek must have altered it.
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Old 11-30-2021, 04:07 PM   #29
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This is becoming a favorite subject for me.

Fundamental premise: What do you want for the prices we pay?

An RV is a home on wheels that's built to price from essentially off-the-shelf components from a few suppliers. RV appliances come from just a couple of sources...whether furnaces and hot water heaters or fridges, stoves and microwaves. The same is true of frames, wheels, tires, axles and brakes. RV manufacturers just buy and install this third party stuff and then build their rig around it. We gripe about a failed fridge? That's not Rockwood's fault.

Given the highly customized, essentially "stick built" nature of most RVs (unlike automobiles), and given their complexity, and given their low prices for what you get, it's time we adjusted our expectations a bit.

My rig cost about $32,000 out the door. What does it have?
  • Double-axle chassis and frame with universal coupler that attaches to any suitable vehicle.
  • Its own braking system.
  • Legal lighting for highway use.
  • All the comforts found in a house including:
  • Fridge/freezer that can work on shore power or propane.
  • 3 burner stove with oven and range hood.
  • Built in microwave.
  • Furnace.
  • Hot water heater.
  • Air conditioning.
  • Double basin sink.
  • Bathroom with tub/shower, vanity, flush toilet, medicine chest, vent fan.
  • Central vent fan.
  • Slide out with king bed.
  • Convertible bunk room with storage access door.
  • Electric awning.
  • Stereo system.
  • TV.
  • Stunning amounts of cabinets and other storage.
  • Convertible dinette.
  • Convertible sofa.
  • 120 volt AC, 12 volt DC power systems.
  • Comprehensive propane system with aux port for outdoor appliances.
  • Prep for solar and solar on the side.
  • Capacity for complete integration with city water and shore power.
  • Holding tanks for fresh water, grey water, black water.
  • Comprehensive lighting systems inside and out.
  • And much more.

This list of ammenities equals or exceeds what's available in most residential homes for less than 10% of the price of a conventional home...AND IT CAN BE TOWED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY behind common vehicles.

Let's be clear. If you're fussy, you can buy better...Airstream for example. For a mere $80,000 I can more or less buy accommodations with similar features to mine from Airstream...but no slide. I can buy an Oliver or similar solid fiberglass (boat design) rig half the size for more money...also no slide. I could upgrade to a top quality Newell Coach Class A for a mere $$half-million or more.

Do I like the fact that each of my rigs has been something of a work in progress? Am I happy that I found a cabinet screw driven through a 120 volt 14/2 wire and simply backed out and left there? Do I like having to carry spare parts, learn how to clean a sail switch in the field, that there's a recall on the propane regulator installed on my rig, and that -- without additional reinforcement -- my full fresh tank might drop out of my rig onto the road? Of course not. I swear a blue streak when I'm stuck fixing things rather than swimming or boating...or just sitting around the fire.

But I just bought a new (to me), very modest home in the boonies, and I paid well over 10x the cost of a very nice RV for this home. And guess what? I've been working my ass off fixing all the little niggling things that were wrong with it...from lighting and wiring to plumbing to bouncing floors to aging roof to failing gutters to rotted siding, and so on. A very long list. I'm no happier about that than I am all the repairs and maintenance on my RV. Buy a brandy-new house? Maybe, but the typical post occupancy punchlist of problems is long.

If you want what amounts to a very fully equipped home on wheels for a relative pittance, brace yourself for some repairs.

I went in for warranty service ONCE...when the roof on my PUP began to blister and delaminate. I gooped it up with sealant for the rest of the season and brought it in for warranty work during the winter...no problems. The spring shackles on my newest rig failed, and I got a field repair, under warranty, from a local mobile welder. Had the frame manufacturer (NOT Jayco in this case) failed to honor the warranty, I'd have been out all of $300. I take care of the rest of the stuff myself, because I'd rather be camping than complaining about dealer service and waiting for the shop to get around to it.

Final point. If I buy a cheap, knockoff tool from Harbor Freight, I adjust my expectations to suit. Most of us own RVs that are essentially the equivalent...very inexpensive mobile homes that we use and abuse by dragging them all over hell and gone (I go deep into the woods on nasty gravel roads and down ATV trails with mine). We need to adjust our expectations and realize that you don't get a $500,000 RV for $30,000.

P.S. I've had Viking, Rockwood, and now Jayco. I don't think there's a dime's worth of difference between them when you get right down to it. If you're really unlucky, you might get a lemon assembled on Monday morning by someone who was still a bit hung over, but most of the time, they are pretty well assembled considering the cost and complexity of the rig. I'd happily buy another like mine...and I might soon, because mine was chosen for a set of strict limitations on size and weight that no longer apply to my current situation. Then again, I'm pretty happy with what I have.

End of rant.
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Old 11-30-2021, 05:27 PM   #30
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Wow. That was long.
I gave up about half way through.
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Old 11-30-2021, 05:44 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmoore13 View Post
This is becoming a favorite subject for me.

Fundamental premise: What do you want for the prices we pay?

An RV is a home on wheels that's built to price from essentially off-the-shelf components from a few suppliers. RV appliances come from just a couple of sources...whether furnaces and hot water heaters or fridges, stoves and microwaves. The same is true of frames, wheels, tires, axles and brakes. RV manufacturers just buy and install this third party stuff and then build their rig around it. We gripe about a failed fridge? That's not Rockwood's fault.

Given the highly customized, essentially "stick built" nature of most RVs (unlike automobiles), and given their complexity, and given their low prices for what you get, it's time we adjusted our expectations a bit.

My rig cost about $32,000 out the door. What does it have?
  • Double-axle chassis and frame with universal coupler that attaches to any suitable vehicle.
  • Its own braking system.
  • Legal lighting for highway use.
  • All the comforts found in a house including:
  • Fridge/freezer that can work on shore power or propane.
  • 3 burner stove with oven and range hood.
  • Built in microwave.
  • Furnace.
  • Hot water heater.
  • Air conditioning.
  • Double basin sink.
  • Bathroom with tub/shower, vanity, flush toilet, medicine chest, vent fan.
  • Central vent fan.
  • Slide out with king bed.
  • Convertible bunk room with storage access door.
  • Electric awning.
  • Stereo system.
  • TV.
  • Stunning amounts of cabinets and other storage.
  • Convertible dinette.
  • Convertible sofa.
  • 120 volt AC, 12 volt DC power systems.
  • Comprehensive propane system with aux port for outdoor appliances.
  • Prep for solar and solar on the side.
  • Capacity for complete integration with city water and shore power.
  • Holding tanks for fresh water, grey water, black water.
  • Comprehensive lighting systems inside and out.
  • And much more.

This list of ammenities equals or exceeds what's available in most residential homes for less than 10% of the price of a conventional home...AND IT CAN BE TOWED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY behind common vehicles.

Let's be clear. If you're fussy, you can buy better...Airstream for example. For a mere $80,000 I can more or less buy accommodations with similar features to mine from Airstream...but no slide. I can buy an Oliver or similar solid fiberglass (boat design) rig half the size for more money...also no slide. I could upgrade to a top quality Newell Coach Class A for a mere $$half-million or more.

Do I like the fact that each of my rigs has been something of a work in progress? Am I happy that I found a cabinet screw driven through a 120 volt 14/2 wire and simply backed out and left there? Do I like having to carry spare parts, learn how to clean a sail switch in the field, that there's a recall on the propane regulator installed on my rig, and that -- without additional reinforcement -- my full fresh tank might drop out of my rig onto the road? Of course not. I swear a blue streak when I'm stuck fixing things rather than swimming or boating...or just sitting around the fire.

But I just bought a new (to me), very modest home in the boonies, and I paid well over 10x the cost of a very nice RV for this home. And guess what? I've been working my ass off fixing all the little niggling things that were wrong with it...from lighting and wiring to plumbing to bouncing floors to aging roof to failing gutters to rotted siding, and so on. A very long list. I'm no happier about that than I am all the repairs and maintenance on my RV. Buy a brandy-new house? Maybe, but the typical post occupancy punchlist of problems is long.

If you want what amounts to a very fully equipped home on wheels for a relative pittance, brace yourself for some repairs.

I went in for warranty service ONCE...when the roof on my PUP began to blister and delaminate. I gooped it up with sealant for the rest of the season and brought it in for warranty work during the winter...no problems. The spring shackles on my newest rig failed, and I got a field repair, under warranty, from a local mobile welder. Had the frame manufacturer (NOT Jayco in this case) failed to honor the warranty, I'd have been out all of $300. I take care of the rest of the stuff myself, because I'd rather be camping than complaining about dealer service and waiting for the shop to get around to it.

Final point. If I buy a cheap, knockoff tool from Harbor Freight, I adjust my expectations to suit. Most of us own RVs that are essentially the equivalent...very inexpensive mobile homes that we use and abuse by dragging them all over hell and gone (I go deep into the woods on nasty gravel roads and down ATV trails with mine). We need to adjust our expectations and realize that you don't get a $500,000 RV for $30,000.

P.S. I've had Viking, Rockwood, and now Jayco. I don't think there's a dime's worth of difference between them when you get right down to it. If you're really unlucky, you might get a lemon assembled on Monday morning by someone who was still a bit hung over, but most of the time, they are pretty well assembled considering the cost and complexity of the rig. I'd happily buy another like mine...and I might soon, because mine was chosen for a set of strict limitations on size and weight that no longer apply to my current situation. Then again, I'm pretty happy with what I have.

End of rant.
Maybe i should have thought twice about quoting you . lol
No way to compare stick built on a lot , with electrical, water and sewer and mostly higher end appliances .

What you get in your RV is plastic coated simulated wood , cheap faucets mostly plastic , plastic sinks ,plastic toilet , except for some with ceramic bowl . cheap no plans wiring not secured to anything , cheap axles and brakes industry standard , cheap TV , cheap microwave , cheap tires , cheap cheap electronics , assembled with almost 0 quality control ,

Now i don't know the size of your unit but 32,000 sounds like you over paid . I don't know the cost of the sqft price of your home but i'll wager the TT has a higher cost per sqft . i paid 25,000 OTD for my xlr29hsf toy hauler and think that was a decent deal but still over priced . now you pay even more for a lot less .at 32g for a 180 sqft tt your at 166 per sqft a 2000 sqft house at 300,000. is 150 per sqft .
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Old 12-01-2021, 07:29 AM   #32
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Well said jim Moore

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmoore13 View Post
This is becoming a favorite subject for me.

Fundamental premise: What do you want for the prices we pay?
I have read this “rant” several times and it and I think it is a very well thought out commentary on our common interest in this pastime. I built my two previous travel trailers and liked them very much. When my lady friends complained about the lack of amenities etc. I went looking for an upgrade. I bought the third trailer I looked at, my current wolf pup fq. My comment to the dealer was. “I’ll take it. I couldn’t build it for that price”. Quality is an issue everywhere. I think we got spoiled by the amazing quality improvements of Japanese cars when our automobile industry was slacking. These days most cars are reasonably reliable. Maybe our complaints about quality will lead to improvements but in the meantime it is what it is. Like IKEA furniture; some assembly required. W Edwards Deming was the person who rebuilt the Japanese economy after the war. He steadfastly refused to work with American companies because they wanted to use his name but not follow his quality precepts. It’s a global economy now and what we build will be judged by how it competes with others and how much respect we have for our work. One of the best lessons about quality I ever learned was a boss who said “can you put your name to that”? Btw I’m getting ads for travel trailers out of China.
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Old 12-01-2021, 08:16 AM   #33
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On an optimistic note

When our industries were following the “planned obsolescence” business plan Deming was teaching the Japanese statistical quality control. His message was that “improving quality would reduce expenses while increasing productivity and market share” that was in 1950. Well, quality won the day, 40 years later or so. The rv industry is a perfect place for automation and quality control. Maybe they will step up. Sometime in the next 40 years. Dang this was supposed to be optimistic.
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Old 12-01-2021, 10:31 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by lesptr View Post
Wow. That was long.
I gave up about half way through.
Brevity is not a hallmark of Jim Moore!
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Old 12-01-2021, 12:23 PM   #35
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RV problems need to be separated into two categories. Ones that are manufacture caused and ones that are suppler caused.
A Dometic fridge that conks out is not FR's (Insert any brand here) problem. If FR installed the fridge and the gas line leaked then thats on FR. I find it silly that owners try and blame a manufacture for things that are not in the manufacture's control.
Most all RV manufactures use the same pool of RV part suppliers. So all you're buying is a box with different colors in and out.
As far as buying new right now goes, IMO it's totally stupid. Material costs and supply/demand are fueling high costs and tight sale prices. Rarely are you getting something better along with the inflated pricing.

How are dealers staying in business? Because all the RV's ordered are already sold and the dealers getting near MSRP.
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Old 12-01-2021, 11:11 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by jimmoore13 View Post
This is becoming a favorite subject for me.

Fundamental premise: What do you want for the prices we pay?

An RV is a home on wheels that's built to price from essentially off-the-shelf components from a few suppliers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~. Then again, I'm pretty happy with what I have.

End of rant.
Here’s to ya Jim,

Applause 👍🏻

Quit the complaining, go camping and replace a few screws. How many years did I camp in a tent? 40 or more, I carried mending tape, screen repair kit, waterproofing spray ( or gallon can many years ago for cotton tarp tents), duct tape and metal tubes for pole repair. Not to mention a set of tools to work on the camp stove.

I like my FR and I’m going to maintain it until I can’t. I’ve put 45,000 miles on my last two campers and loved every minute. Sure it can get frustrating sometimes, but I choose to love the lifestyle.

End of my rant,
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Old 12-02-2021, 02:07 PM   #37
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Brevity is not a hallmark of Jim Moore!
Whole thoughts are rarely brief.
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Old 12-02-2021, 02:38 PM   #38
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I have read this “rant” several times and it and I think it is a very well thought out commentary on our common interest in this pastime. I built my two previous travel trailers and liked them very much. When my lady friends complained about the lack of amenities etc. I went looking for an upgrade. I bought the third trailer I looked at, my current wolf pup fq. My comment to the dealer was. “I’ll take it. I couldn’t build it for that price”. Quality is an issue everywhere. I think we got spoiled by the amazing quality improvements of Japanese cars when our automobile industry was slacking. These days most cars are reasonably reliable. Maybe our complaints about quality will lead to improvements but in the meantime it is what it is. Like IKEA furniture; some assembly required. W Edwards Deming was the person who rebuilt the Japanese economy after the war. He steadfastly refused to work with American companies because they wanted to use his name but not follow his quality precepts. It’s a global economy now and what we build will be judged by how it competes with others and how much respect we have for our work. One of the best lessons about quality I ever learned was a boss who said “can you put your name to that”? Btw I’m getting ads for travel trailers out of China.
...and suddenly, Japanese products went from "Japanese junk," as my parents characterized them, to the standard by which others were measured. Sony, Honda, Toyota, and so on crushed US manufacturers. They literally caused the UK auto manufacturers to crash and burn. Then the South Koreans followed suit...with companies like Goldstar (now LG), Huyndai, Kia and so on also leading the way. (Back in the dark ages of VCRs, Goldstar was head and shoulders above the rest, with flying heads for the audio track providing fidelity equivalent to that of a recording studio.)

That revolution never hit the RV market...whether in component suppliers or in the RVs themselves. That's unfortunate, because I would be much happier to find an LG fridge in my rig than a Dometic. And I'd love to see a "Toyota" RV. I'd definitely pay for that kind of affordable quality.

There was a brief time when the Big 3 flirted with RV manufacturer, but those days came and went in the blink of an eye. Yes, they supply chassis (for RVs, box trucks, shuttle busses, ambulances, and so on), but who among them is selling a true RV? Even the Sprinter is just the base platform for an RV manufacturer's vision.

None of this good stuff is happening, at least at the moment, so we have what we have available to us. RVs are a kind of "home brew" niche market based largely in Elkhart.

Part of our US dilemma is that we are so inclined to demand such large rigs. Compare our tastes to those in Europe, and the difference is pretty substantial. Where are the super-slides and 1.5 bathroom models? I'd be surprised to learn that triple-axle toy haulers are a thing in the UK, but giant fivers are pretty common in the US. For that matter, where would one buy a diesel dually in the UK? I'm sure you can if you try hard, but finding the equivalent of an F-550 dually with 1000 lb ft of torque isn't happening elsewhere in the world.

Again, this is long. Nuance requires more words. Reading is fundamental.
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previously 2014 Forest River/Rockwood HW 277
2006 Ram 1500 4WD Crew with Firestone Airbags
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Old 12-02-2021, 03:08 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmoore13 View Post
...and suddenly, Japanese products went from "Japanese junk," as my parents characterized them, to the standard by which others were measured. Sony, Honda, Toyota, and so on crushed US manufacturers. They literally caused the UK auto manufacturers to crash and burn. Then the South Koreans followed suit...with companies like Goldstar (now LG), Huyndai, Kia and so on also leading the way. (Back in the dark ages of VCRs, Goldstar was head and shoulders above the rest, with flying heads for the audio track providing fidelity equivalent to that of a recording studio.)



That revolution never hit the RV market...whether in component suppliers or in the RVs themselves. That's unfortunate, because I would be much happier to find an LG fridge in my rig than a Dometic. And I'd love to see a "Toyota" RV. I'd definitely pay for that kind of affordable quality.



There was a brief time when the Big 3 flirted with RV manufacturer, but those days came and went in the blink of an eye. Yes, they supply chassis (for RVs, box trucks, shuttle busses, ambulances, and so on), but who among them is selling a true RV? Even the Sprinter is just the base platform for an RV manufacturer's vision.



None of this good stuff is happening, at least at the moment, so we have what we have available to us. RVs are a kind of "home brew" niche market based largely in Elkhart.



Part of our US dilemma is that we are so inclined to demand such large rigs. Compare our tastes to those in Europe, and the difference is pretty substantial. Where are the super-slides and 1.5 bathroom models? I'd be surprised to learn that triple-axle toy haulers are a thing in the UK, but giant fivers are pretty common in the US. For that matter, where would one buy a diesel dually in the UK? I'm sure you can if you try hard, but finding the equivalent of an F-550 dually with 1000 lb ft of torque isn't happening elsewhere in the world.



Again, this is long. Nuance requires more words. Reading is fundamental.
This is why you won't see Asian competition in the RV market. RVing is pretty much a North American thing, with a much smaller presence in Europe and their smaller RVs. They are pretty much non-existentant in Asia, except for a few mini-Motorhomes.
Even the few attempts to import European RVs have been pretty dismal. And look at Hymer's disastrous purchase of Roadtrek Motorhomes.
The only way we could possibly see some Asian competition, is if an Asian company bought a RV manufacturer here and instilled some of their quality standards. But that would be a rare possibility.

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Old 12-03-2021, 11:30 AM   #40
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Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 232
Another thought.

Keep in mind that RVs are many people's "Primary Residence". I'm currently in Harlingen TX, at a large park, and the majority of RVs are where people live 24/7/365 (or at least 24/7/180).

Look at the rise in "tiny homes" which are built to dwelling standards. While "somewhat" more costly than a comparable TT, the differences in quality are readily apparent, with residential grade appliances, plumbing, electrical, windows, insulation, etc. And these tiny homes often cost less than a comparable 5th wheel.




It seems that if you are a FT that doesn't relocate often and want quality then the tiny home seems the way to go. If you are a "camper" and relocate often, then compromises must be made, or you will pay more for similar quality,
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