Balancing Goodyear Endurance Tires

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Where I live we had a huge pile of tires that caught fire and burned for months. Fire started in Sept 1984 and wasn't out until May 1984. the pile was known as "Mount Firestone" with 4 million tires and made national news. Couldn't extinguish it even with the help of aircraft fire fighting equipment and chemicals. Soot covered everything in a several mile radius.


This was a catalyst for our fees on recyclable or hazardous commodities.

Burned backwards, eh? Did it start as a pile of ashes and end as a pile of worn but recognizable tires? I can visualize starting with a smoky sky and watching that smoke get sucked down into a pile of complete tires.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Burned backwards, eh? Did it start as a pile of ashes and end as a pile of worn but recognizable tires? I can visualize starting with a smoky sky and watching that smoke get sucked down into a pile of complete tires.

Good catch. I fixed it.

As for the "visual", kind of like watching a movie in the theater where someone forgot to rewind the reel

On that note I wish I could do that with this year, rewind back to last Christmas or so

For some afternoon entertainment here's a video of the fire in it's early stages. As one firefighter said, a tire is just a solid form of gasoline. When heated it burns like heck.

https://youtu.be/ahGt8fLsluM

Fire was also quite spectacular up close. The tires were piled on an old "decommissioned" land fill. As the pent up methane beneath the cap was released there were suddenly 30 foot long blowtorch flames bursting upward and tossing burning tires in all directions.

[BehindBars]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Burned backwards, eh? Did it start as a pile of ashes and end as a pile of worn but recognizable tires? I can visualize starting with a smoky sky and watching that smoke get sucked down into a pile of complete tires.

I giggled for 10 minutes after reading that one and visualizing a reverse fire.

[Chuck324]

I hope this helps.

If you ever get the opportunity to tour a tire or wheel manufacture you will NEVER EVER question balancing a tire/wheel combo. My dad worked at a Goodyear recap shop for a while that was next door to a new tire facility. I got to see both in person. For a time I work at a shop that made and modified steel wheels. I have worked with aluminum castings. It is almost impossible to guarantee that any of those processes can provide a balanced finished product. There are ways it can be done but way to costly for mass production of any of these products.

So IMHO any shop that will not balance tires is not a shop that I want to do business with.

Stay safe and hope to see you down the road.

[Tundra 2014]

I had the opposite experience. When I first had them balanced the shop said they were some of the best the have ever done. Much less than what I had on the original Carlyles. I had one repaired due to a screw, same thing different shop.

[aircommuter]

I do my own too, I have a Coats 1001 3 phase direct drive and it works pretty good for my home shop. I balance them all trailer or not. It only makes sense. If one doesn’t think it makes a difference it’s because they haven’t experienced all the situations yet. Some think proper diet doesn’t matter either until one day they have an appointment with a cardiologist.

[Dave52]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Given their inexperience, I hope you thought to insist that they hand-torque the wheel lugs and let you watch them do it.

If not, I suggest you do it at home--and regularly as you travel.

Since this tire store does their work outside, I stood right there and watched to make sure everything was done right.

Much to my surprise and without me saying anything, the young lad hand torqued the lugs on each wheel in a star pattern!

[babock]

Originally Posted by Dave52

Since this tire store does their work outside, I stood right there and watched to make sure everything was done right.

Much to my surprise and without me saying anything, the young lad hand torqued the lugs on each wheel in a star pattern!

That's one of the reasons I like Americas tire. Not only do they use a torque wrench but they have a database of all vehicles and tell you what they are going to torque them to.

For the trailer, I told them what the torque spec was.

[mnoland30]

Rollscanardly, can you feel the difference in vibration? Do you have them on TV or trailer, or both? Have you seen less tire wear? We used to just adjust the brakes so they didn't drag, and spin the tire and put the weight on the top. Good enough for the speeds we traveled then.

[rollscanardly]

Originally Posted by mnoland30

Rollscanardly, can you feel the difference in vibration? Do you have them on TV or trailer, or both? Have you seen less tire wear? We used to just adjust the brakes so they didn't drag, and spin the tire and put the weight on the top. Good enough for the speeds we traveled then.

They are only on the camper. I put them on since day one, so I have nothing to compare them to.


All I can say is that I feel as though the old girl tows very smoothly.


Rich

[Comanchecreek]

I think this is where we bring up the "lug centric" conversation. Some wheels are "hub centric", and others are "lug centric". Do you know which yours are? If you do not use the correct adapter on "lug centric" the balancing will not be correct and could lead to big weights. I always balance my trailer tires. Anything to reduce wear and tear. Not a big deal, until it is.

[clr]

How many people on here know what the red and yellow dots on the new tire is even there for? I see most tires from a tire shop are not properly aligned.

The factory does a sort of balance test for all new tires. The heaviest position on the tire has a red dot the lightest position has the yellow dot.

To properly install the tire on the wheel, the red dot should be aligned with the valve stem. If this is done the tire should use much less weight to balance the tire. How many tires do you see the red dot aligned with the valve stem on new tire installs. Just look at some random vehicles and you will find that most installers do not align the heaviest portion of the tire by the valve stem. Yes you can still balance the tire properly but with more weight required. I mean how long does it take to tell this information to the high school kid mounting the tires.

[BehindBars]

Originally Posted by clr

How many people on here know what the red and yellow dots on the new tire is even there for? I see most tires from a tire shop are not properly aligned.

The factory does a sort of balance test for all new tires. The heaviest position on the tire has a red dot the lightest position has the yellow dot.

To properly install the tire on the wheel, the red dot should be aligned with the valve stem. If this is done the tire should use much less weight to balance the tire. How many tires do you see the red dot aligned with the valve stem on new tire installs. Just look at some random vehicles and you will find that most installers do not align the heaviest portion of the tire by the valve stem. Yes you can still balance the tire properly but with more weight required. I mean how long does it take to tell this information to the high school kid mounting the tires.

It is true that the tire light side dot should align with the heaviest part of the rim, but the incorrect assumption is that the heaviest part of the rim is always at the tire valve stem. The heaviest part of the rim is not always at the valve stem. When I mount motorcycle tires, I check the balance of the bare wheel and permanently mark the actual heaviest side, and use that to align the tire dot. Most of the time it is not at the valve. Most installers will not check the bare wheel balance to locate the true heavy side, they will just assume the valve side is the heavy spot. I suspect cast wheels, more so than stamped steel wheels, might more often have heavy spots not at the valve stem.

If you don’t know what side of the rim is actually the heaviest, there is not much point in worrying about where the dot goes.

[babock]

Originally Posted by BehindBars

It is true that the tire light side dot should align with the heaviest part of the rim, but the incorrect assumption is that the heaviest part of the rim is always at the tire valve stem. The heaviest part of the rim is not always at the valve stem. When I mount motorcycle tires, I check the balance of the bare wheel and permanently mark the actual heaviest side, and use that to align the tire dot. Most of the time it is not at the valve. Most installers will not check the bare wheel balance to locate the true heavy side, they will just assume the valve side is the heavy spot. I suspect cast wheels, more so than stamped steel wheels, might more often have heavy spots not at the valve stem.

If you don’t know what side of the rim is actually the heaviest, there is not much point in worrying about where the dot goes.

Absolutely correct. Also, MANY tires don't even come with the dots anymore.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by babock

Absolutely correct. Also, MANY tires don't even come with the dots anymore.

Back in the 70's tire ride disturbance complaints were huge. The US Tire industry was still converting to radial tires and thought they could build them the same way they built bias/belted tires. All kinds of things were tried from purposely out of round wheels with the valve stem hole being the low spot.. Ford was big with this on their alloy wheels.

Another method of reducing ride disturbance was to actually grind some rubber off the first inch of tread on inner and outer shoulders. The company I was under contract with at the time manufactured a machine that did this in the field. Made for a fantastic ride but each vehicle took an hour or more to perform the service including setup and on-car balance. Better tires and decent "computer balancers" did away with the need. If a tire comes with a "dot" today it's probably a legacy mark thatt someone in the factory thinks is necessary but tire shops merely ignore.

As for "Lug Centric" wheels. Part fact, part myth.

When a wheel is made, like any machinist will attest, there has to be a reference point if you are going to make a round object "round". On a wheel it's the center hole. This becomes the reference for the bolt circle and in turn the bead surfaces. On steel wheels it's harder to control bead surfaces but on alloy wheels that are finished on CNC machinery the center hole is finished in the casting, bolt holes are drilled and finished, back is cut, bead surfaces are formed, and any finish on wheel faces finished. All from the center hole.

If one was to pull up an operator's manual for a wheel balancer the setup would call for a cone to be inserted FROM THE BACK of the wheel, with a spring holding it tight against the back of the hole (which is often chamfered for more accuracy. The wheel is than clamped to the balancer with a cup and hub nut from the front. Cup may have some rubber on it to protect decorative wheel faces.

The so called "Lug Centric Adapters" of today are really clamping adapters that were designed to be used with the "back cone'. on wheels that had "fancy" wheel faces and the cup referred to before wouldn't allow for proper clamping. The so called Hub Centric adapter merely reached down to the bolt holes and clamped the wheel tight against the flange on the balancer.

Many tire shop personnel mistook these adapters for an update of the old plate type adapters used on the more primitive off car balancers that were in use since the late 50's.

A persistent myth in the tire stores is that merely using one of the "Lug Centric" adapters without the center cone does a better job. Considering that a the wheel was built around the center hole; b the bolt circle was located with the center hole as it's reference point; nothing is improved.

Even if the hub doesn't have a pilot, the part the wheel center hole is supposed to fit tight on, the bolt circle is a more than adequate reference on today's wheels. If it isn't then you have a bad wheel and merely using a Lug Centric adapter won't solve the problem. For that matter if the lug mating surfaces are damaged, what good does it do to balance using a lug centric adapter than a wheel that was balanced in it's out of round condition on the vehicle. Wheel should be repalced if damaged.

Most trailer hubs don't have a pilot. They rely on the bolt circle for reference and with todays (undamaged) wheels that's proven to be more than adequate.

In my career I've found that many tire dealers will have a spiel that goes like "Your wheels require the use of a special adapter and there will be an extra charge for that".

FWIW, my career in the "Wheel Services" industry as an equipment tech rep/sales engineer began before the very first true "Computer Balancers" came on the market. Names like Hoffman (blue), Nortron (Gray), Coats (Red), Hunter (Red), and John Bean (Blue then Orange when they became FMC). Even worked around old Bear, Weaver, and FMC (the white ones) "mechanical" off car balancers. Thirty two years later I decided I'd had enough and retired. Retirement is more fun


BTW, if one really wants "perfectly balanced" wheels best way is to have them balanced on the vehicle. Hard to do with FWD and AWD vehicles today so it's really a dying art. Next best, and also takes into consideration any imperfections in wheel and/or tire is to find a Tire Shop with a Hunter GSP 9700 series wheel balancer. It's the one with a drum that' pressed on the tire while wheel is rotated at slow speed. Measures the "Force Variation" in the tire and makes it possible for the operator to match the tire to the wheel for best uniform Rolling Radius. It hen spins at a higher speed and the matched tire/wheel assembly is then balanced. Not a lot of dealers have one as the "admission price" when I retired was ~$10,000 and up.

If one wants to locate a shop with one of these balancers here's a link:

https://www.hunter.com/find-equipment/?

[Dave52]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Back in the 70's tire ride disturbance complaints were huge. The US Tire industry was still converting to radial tires and thought they could build them the same way they built bias/belted tires. All kinds of things were tried from purposely out of round wheels with the valve stem hole being the low spot.. Ford was big with this on their alloy wheels.

Another method of reducing ride disturbance was to actually grind some rubber off the first inch of tread on inner and outer shoulders. The company I was under contract with at the time manufactured a machine that did this in the field. Made for a fantastic ride but each vehicle took an hour or more to perform the service including setup and on-car balance. Better tires and decent "computer balancers" did away with the need. If a tire comes with a "dot" today it's probably a legacy mark thatt someone in the factory thinks is necessary but tire shops merely ignore.

As for "Lug Centric" wheels. Part fact, part myth.

When a wheel is made, like any machinist will attest, there has to be a reference point if you are going to make a round object "round". On a wheel it's the center hole. This becomes the reference for the bolt circle and in turn the bead surfaces. On steel wheels it's harder to control bead surfaces but on alloy wheels that are finished on CNC machinery the center hole is finished in the casting, bolt holes are drilled and finished, back is cut, bead surfaces are formed, and any finish on wheel faces finished. All from the center hole.

If one was to pull up an operator's manual for a wheel balancer the setup would call for a cone to be inserted FROM THE BACK of the wheel, with a spring holding it tight against the back of the hole (which is often chamfered for more accuracy. The wheel is than clamped to the balancer with a cup and hub nut from the front. Cup may have some rubber on it to protect decorative wheel faces.

The so called "Lug Centric Adapters" of today are really clamping adapters that were designed to be used with the "back cone'. on wheels that had "fancy" wheel faces and the cup referred to before wouldn't allow for proper clamping. The so called Hub Centric adapter merely reached down to the bolt holes and clamped the wheel tight against the flange on the balancer.

Many tire shop personnel mistook these adapters for an update of the old plate type adapters used on the more primitive off car balancers that were in use since the late 50's.

A persistent myth in the tire stores is that merely using one of the "Lug Centric" adapters without the center cone does a better job. Considering that a the wheel was built around the center hole; b the bolt circle was located with the center hole as it's reference point; nothing is improved.

Even if the hub doesn't have a pilot, the part the wheel center hole is supposed to fit tight on, the bolt circle is a more than adequate reference on today's wheels. If it isn't then you have a bad wheel and merely using a Lug Centric adapter won't solve the problem. For that matter if the lug mating surfaces are damaged, what good does it do to balance using a lug centric adapter than a wheel that was balanced in it's out of round condition on the vehicle. Wheel should be repalced if damaged.

Most trailer hubs don't have a pilot. They rely on the bolt circle for reference and with todays (undamaged) wheels that's proven to be more than adequate.

In my career I've found that many tire dealers will have a spiel that goes like "Your wheels require the use of a special adapter and there will be an extra charge for that".

FWIW, my career in the "Wheel Services" industry as an equipment tech rep/sales engineer began before the very first true "Computer Balancers" came on the market. Names like Hoffman (blue), Nortron (Gray), Coats (Red), Hunter (Red), and John Bean (Blue then Orange when they became FMC). Even worked around old Bear, Weaver, and FMC (the white ones) "mechanical" off car balancers. Thirty two years later I decided I'd had enough and retired. Retirement is more fun


BTW, if one really wants "perfectly balanced" wheels best way is to have them balanced on the vehicle. Hard to do with FWD and AWD vehicles today so it's really a dying art. Next best, and also takes into consideration any imperfections in wheel and/or tire is to find a Tire Shop with a Hunter GSP 9700 series wheel balancer. It's the one with a drum that' pressed on the tire while wheel is rotated at slow speed. Measures the "Force Variation" in the tire and makes it possible for the operator to match the tire to the wheel for best uniform Rolling Radius. It hen spins at a higher speed and the matched tire/wheel assembly is then balanced. Not a lot of dealers have one as the "admission price" when I retired was ~$10,000 and up.

If one wants to locate a shop with one of these balancers here's a link:

https://www.hunter.com/find-equipment/?

WOW...great information! The amount of freely offered knowledge on this forum never ceases to amaze me!

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Dave52

WOW...great information! The amount of freely offered knowledge on this forum never ceases to amaze me!

My late wife used to chastise me regularly for not charging for my "lessons". I just laughed and told her that if I did I wouldn't be retired anymore. THAT I wouldn't trade for any amount of money

[ThruHiker]

Originally Posted by Dave52

After reading all of the good comments and reviews for Goodyear Endurance tires, I bit the bullet today and had a set of GYE ST225/75R15's installed on my 2018 Rockwood 2618VS Windjammer.

This trailer is always stored inside and the original 3 year old 225/75R15 Castle Rocks only had maybe 4,000 miles at most on them and looked like new. However, we are getting ready to embark on a 2500 mile road trip next week and I didn't want to leave on "China Bomb" tires although I do use a TST TPMS and they have been problem free.

After arguing with the tire store manager about balancing these GYE's when they mounted them, he finally relented and balanced all 4 tires for me. Holy Cow...1 tire took 5.25 ozs to balance, 2 others took 2.75 ozs, and 1 took 2.25 ozs.

After this experience I sure am glad I stuck to my guns to get these tires balanced, but the fact that it took so much weight to balance them makes me wonder about their overall build quality. Sure hope I didn't spend $600 today to replace perfectly good CR's with maybe questionable GYE tires.

We did the same thing, replaced our 18 month old CRs with about 3500 miles with new Goodyears. We did it about ten weeks ago, same as you bought online direct from GY and then hassled with the local shop that did the mounting. Same as you I had to argue them into balancing for the same reason... we had already paid for it LOL!

Yes, it took a lot of weight to balance each tire, and they didn’t balance up all that well either. Worse, apparently, than car tires would have been. I also talked to them about lug centric, but the only adapter they had didn’t fit - pins were too large. I know that there are other adapters but these guys didn’t have them. Fortunately, TitanMike set us straight on that anyway, thanks Mike!

So, you’re not alone! We’re doing a three week trip after Labor Day, and we already did a short one. I didn’t notice any difference, but hopefully the GYs will give us one less thing to worry about. I don’t think the GYs are questionable, I think they’ll be good tires. But, yup it makes you wonder throwing away what look like perfectly good tires!🤔

[andymil]

I found that the drums on our Sprinter were out of balance.

https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...ss-162863.html

[Comanchecreek]

Thanks TitanMike. Very informative, and makes a lot of sense. I think in this day and age the only wheels that are truly "Lug Centric" are the ones without center holes, which I've seen a few of, but they seem pretty rare, and usually come only in very specialized applications. I do know that the new "alloy" type wheels can be very difficult to mount with cone adapters because of the spoke shapes. I have that problem with my Crusader wheels, but have come up with the right combination of cones for my old Coats 1001. I run commercial Michelin XPS's on my trailer. While they use a fair amount of weight, I still haven't run into 5 and 6 ounce "out of balance" situations.
Often it's better to space the weights out at 45 degrees on the wheel, front and back to achieve correct balance. I do that by placing say a 2.5 ounce weight at the point it calls for the 5 ouncer, then rerun the balancer and it will generally call for weight at a different location. Doesn't always work, but I have had some success on occasion. Actually that's probably a better solution in most cases instead of loading poundage all at one point on the wheel, but doesn't happen because it takes more time and weights.