Balancing Goodyear Endurance Tires

[Mike134]

Originally Posted by Comanchecreek

I think this is where we bring up the "lug centric" conversation. Some wheels are "hub centric", and others are "lug centric". Do you know which yours are? If you do not use the correct adapter on "lug centric" the balancing will not be correct and could lead to big weights. I always balance my trailer tires. Anything to reduce wear and tear. Not a big deal, until it is.

All just urban legend............ALL wheels are built/measured out from the exact center. The lug holes are laid out on what they call a bolt circle. EXACTLY measured not randomly located from the center of the hole that happens to be perfectly round.

[My17Ram]

A question for Titan Mike. Wouldn’t all wheels have to be lug centric to run true with the outside diameter of the wheel? And if this is true, wouldn’t a pin plate lug adapter always be appropriate to mount any wheel on a balancer?

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by My17Ram

A question for Titan Mike. Wouldn’t all wheels have to be lug centric to run true with the outside diameter of the wheel? And if this is true, wouldn’t a pin plate lug adapter always be appropriate to mount any wheel on a balancer?

Short answer is NO.

A wheel CAN have runout between "bolt circle" and rim's bead mounting surfaces yet still run perfectly true on a hub with a pilot that matches wheel center hole. Wheels with this kind of issue are usually steel wheels and again, usually aftermarket wheels.

The "pin plate adapters", especially those with multiple bolt circles and movable pins are NOT true. Close, but not exact. The pins move slightly in their holes. I have demonstrated that to plate manufacturers several times.

They aren't designed to be "locating" devices but merely clamping devices. A "Reverse Cone" centering setup should be the way the wheel is centered on the balancer and the "Pin Plates" only used for clamping. For that matter, cones are becoming obsolete with the growing prevalence of cast wheels. Cones are still OK for steel wheels that have "coined" centers (stamped out on a press) and have a radius'd back side edge.

This whole issue has been going on for decades. Most times it's impossible to even get the "Tire Techs" to use the cones properly. Next time you see someone putting a cone in from the front of the wheel and locking it in place he's doing it wrong. Not a single balancer manufacturer since the 70's has recommended that process.

Here's a nice educational video on the proper way to mount and center wheels for balancing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9geF...earningChannel

Added: Many custom wheel manufacturers offer a "Hub Centric Ring" to add to the center hole of their wheels so it engages the pilot on the vehicle's hub/drum. Custom wheels are almost always made with large center holes so they can fit a wide range of vehicles that have the same bolt circle but different pilot sizes.

The proper way to mount wheels like this on vehicles that use the hub/axle pilot is to use this centering ring, not try to work around by using balance adapters for a purpose it wasn't designed for.

[My17Ram]

Thank you Mike for your very informative answer and technical knowledge! It is much appreciated.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Mike134

All just urban legend............ALL wheels are built/measured out from the exact center. The lug holes are laid out on what they call a bolt circle. EXACTLY measured not randomly located from the center of the hole that happens to be perfectly round.

Not a defense but some background.

When the use of "Pin Plates" first started in most US tire stores it was during a time when US made tires would have made some current Chinese tires look good.

"Ride Disturbances" were the number one complaint with Car Makers, Tire Manufacturers, and Dealers. All kinds of remedies were being grasped at. Not just adapters but things like "Truing Machines" were popular as well.

Dealers would mount tire/wheel assemblies on an arbor then shave rubber off the tread to make it round but few realized what the real problem was. It of course started with the wheel centering.

It was also discovered that radial tires behaved differently than bias/bias belted. Radial tires behaved more like an infinite number of spring that supported the wheel. As the wheel rotated under load, if it encountered a stiffer "spring" or two, the wheel would be forced up and the driver would feel it in his "fourth point of contact" (f you served in the military you'll understand).

Sadly the tire manufacturers were way behind the curve in not just resolving this issue, they lacked sorely in training. Anytime there is an information vacuum people start making up their own ideas and solutions.

When I retired the latest in technology was just beginning to make it's way into the tire shops. Dealerships were among the first to adopt the new tech mostly because the Manufactures REQUIRED it. Some tire chains joined the upgrade trend. Before I retired I placed over $2.5 million in new "Road Force" balancers in our stores. Some Dealers preferred to just stick with their existing balancers and some felt that the best way for them to go was to buy used balancers at auctions, etc.

FWIW, anyone want to guess which group submitted the fewest "Out Of Round" tire warranty adjustments?

[walaby]

I bought my Goodyears from Discount and they balanced for free.


I took my old tires home and did NOT have to pay any disposal fees.


Mike

[Chuck324]

TitanMike, Thank you for taking the time to give us all a mountain of information. I am very thankful for all those that freely give of their knowledge and experiences on this forum. It is truly amazing.

I have said for many, many years if a tire/wheel is going on the highway it gets balanced, PERIOD. No questions asked

Chuck

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by walaby

I bought my Goodyears from Discount and they balanced for free.


I took my old tires home and did NOT have to pay any disposal fees.


Mike

That's going to vary from State to State, depending on their laws.

In this State you pay the fee, period. Whether or not the dealer breaks it out or not is up to them. Our State's fee is only $1 but the Dealer gets charged by the disposal service varying amounts so what they show on the invoice (or not) will still be a component in the price they charge the customer. Trust me, you paid for the disposal.

[walaby]

I don't know where they would have hidden the cost in my case, because the invoice clearly stated disposal fee = 0 and a note, "customer retained tires". But, I assume it could be built in the price of the tire, although the price did not change as a result of me taking my tires.


Mike

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by walaby

I don't know where they would have hidden the cost in my case, because the invoice clearly stated disposal fee = 0 and a note, "customer retained tires". But, I assume it could be built in the price of the tire, although the price did not change as a result of me taking my tires.


Mike

Like I said, it will depend. Items that are shown separately on an invoice are items that aren't subject to sales tax (if any) and the "accounting department" needs to break out for regular remittance to the State. Examples are disposal fees and separate taxes. While not a tire store, take a look at your Cable Bill (if you have one). Somewhere in there is a lsit of all the fees and taxes that were added on.

One of he realities in life, when making a purchase, you (the collective "you") are paying for more than the widget you bought. You are paying the rent/mortgage, taxes, insurance, utility bills, license fees, equipment, employees, etc. And then you are also contributing a little profit to the owner which is usually the smallest percentage of all.

[walaby]

No disagreement there. Fully aware of all the nice things cable and phone bills add. Im sure I contributed to all of those items (rent, utilities, taxes, salaries etc) for the tire shop. That's the nature of business. That's what they call mark-up. I wasn't born yesterday... perhaps the day before, but not yesterday.


If the tire shop paid a disposal fee out of the price I paid plus tax, well, so be it. I just know the invoice said 0 and the note. I was gonna sell them like I did my previous TT tires. 16" ST tires are a lot harder to sell. They make great flower beds though.


Mike

[Comanchecreek]

Originally Posted by Mike134

All just urban legend............ALL wheels are built/measured out from the exact center. The lug holes are laid out on what they call a bolt circle. EXACTLY measured not randomly located from the center of the hole that happens to be perfectly round.

Not just urban legend. I'm sure they wouldn't waste time manufacturing these adapters for just a thought. They are all over the place for purchase by professional shops. Just saying.

https://www.amazon.com/5-Lugs-Balanc...10997245&psc=1

[Mike134]

Originally Posted by Comanchecreek

Not just urban legend. I'm sure they wouldn't waste time manufacturing these adapters for just a thought. They are all over the place for purchase by professional shops. Just saying.

https://www.amazon.com/5-Lugs-Balanc...10997245&psc=1

Didn't you read titanmikes post in this tread and other treads? If someone will buy it I'll make it even if it's worthless.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Comanchecreek

Not just urban legend. I'm sure they wouldn't waste time manufacturing these adapters for just a thought. They are all over the place for purchase by professional shops. Just saying.

https://www.amazon.com/5-Lugs-Balanc...10997245&psc=1

Originally Posted by Mike134

Didn't you read titanmikes post in this tread and other treads? If someone will buy it I'll make it even if it's worthless.

The point that has been missed is that these devices were never intended to be CENTERING devices. Merely clamping devices to be used IN CONJUNCTION WITH A CENTERING CONE (or collet) on the back.

On a side note, in the not so distant future we will see "no lug" wheel mounting on cars. Kind of "Back to the future" change is about to happen. Go back to several European sport's cars that had only ONE hub nut in the center of the wheel and you'll start seeing them on cars again.

NASCAR is going to a single center hub nut for 2021 and my bet is that it will show up on all kinds of passenger cars shortly after that. My old MGA Roadster had that setup and my "lug wrench" was a lead hammer

Will they show up on travel trailer wheels/hubs? Maybe not.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

The tire disposal fee is pretty much now a mandate imposed by the States. It's levied (at least in my State) on the basis of how many tires were sold regardless of how many were taken home.

Correct, many states (Louisiana is one) require a waste tire fee on tires at time of sale, regardless of whether you retain your old tires or not. If they did not, then hardly anybody would leave their old tires to be properly recycled, and then would just dump them out in the woods, ditches etc....to save that money.



In Louisiana it's officially called a "Waste Tire Cleanup & Recycling " fee. We have to turn it in monthly to the DEQ, like sales taxes. Any extra money generated is supposed to help pay for the cleanup and recycling of old tires they find abandoned. I try not to call the DEQ fee a tire disposal fee, cause technically that's not what it is, and is something different.


Our DEQ fund has been paying out everything and more to just keep up with the current tires being disposed of. The tire processors now also charge us extra which is a disposal cost and is paid on every tire we send in for processing, not just the ones sold. We have to add in to the cost on top of the DEQ fee. My waste tire disposal costs to the processor many times run higher than payroll.


Here is a copy of the signs we must have displayed from our DEQ, which explains the fee. Even if you buy a new vehicle, you have to pay the fees on the tires, since they figure the tires are going to eventually used in Louisiana.


https://www.deq.louisiana.gov/assets...errevised2.pdf


All Louisiana tire dealers are required to collect a waste tire cleanup and recycling fee from the consumer at the time of the retail sale of:• $2.25 for each passenger/light truck tire,• $5 for each medium truck tire, and• $10 for each off-road tire, and • $1.25 for each recapped or retreaded tires.These fees shall also be collected on replacement of all recall and adjustment tires, designated spare tires, all-terrain vehicle (ATV) tires, and utility terrain vehicle (UTV) tires.Tire fee categories are defined in the Waste Tire Regulations. This fee must be collected whether or not the purchaser retains the waste tire.

[Comanchecreek]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

The point that has been missed is that these devices were never intended to be CENTERING devices. Merely clamping devices to be used IN CONJUNCTION WITH A CENTERING CONE (or collet) on the back.

On a side note, in the not so distant future we will see "no lug" wheel mounting on cars. Kind of "Back to the future" change is about to happen. Go back to several European sport's cars that had only ONE hub nut in the center of the wheel and you'll start seeing them on cars again.

NASCAR is going to a single center hub nut for 2021 and my bet is that it will show up on all kinds of passenger cars shortly after that. My old MGA Roadster had that setup and my "lug wrench" was a lead hammer

Will they show up on travel trailer wheels/hubs? Maybe not.

I agree. From the viewpoint of the balancing machine, everything is hub centric. Even the adapters go on using the cones for hub centric attachment. It's the wheels that are different, and yes I agree that they are probably a rarity in the trailer applications. My guess with all the after market stuff out there they do probably exist. Here's a video.
Mike, it's definitely been awhile since the old knock off spinners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=labsW0OP8cA

[Iwannacamp]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Not a defense but some background.



When the use of "Pin Plates" first started in most US tire stores it was during a time when US made tires would have made some current Chinese tires look good.



"Ride Disturbances" were the number one complaint with Car Makers, Tire Manufacturers, and Dealers. All kinds of remedies were being grasped at. Not just adapters but things like "Truing Machines" were popular as well.



Dealers would mount tire/wheel assemblies on an arbor then shave rubber off the tread to make it round but few realized what the real problem was. It of course started with the wheel centering.



It was also discovered that radial tires behaved differently than bias/bias belted. Radial tires behaved more like an infinite number of spring that supported the wheel. As the wheel rotated under load, if it encountered a stiffer "spring" or two, the wheel would be forced up and the driver would feel it in his "fourth point of contact" (f you served in the military you'll understand).



Sadly the tire manufacturers were way behind the curve in not just resolving this issue, they lacked sorely in training. Anytime there is an information vacuum people start making up their own ideas and solutions.



When I retired the latest in technology was just beginning to make it's way into the tire shops. Dealerships were among the first to adopt the new tech mostly because the Manufactures REQUIRED it. Some tire chains joined the upgrade trend. Before I retired I placed over $2.5 million in new "Road Force" balancers in our stores. Some Dealers preferred to just stick with their existing balancers and some felt that the best way for them to go was to buy used balancers at auctions, etc.



FWIW, anyone want to guess which group submitted the fewest "Out Of Round" tire warranty adjustments?

I’m going with Michelin

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Comanchecreek

I agree. From the viewpoint of the balancing machine, everything is hub centric. Even the adapters go on using the cones for hub centric attachment. It's the wheels that are different, and yes I agree that they are probably a rarity in the trailer applications. My guess with all the after market stuff out there they do probably exist. Here's a video.
Mike, it's definitely been awhile since the old knock off spinners.

Not really. The center hole is still the reference for the bolt circle. If a tire/wheel assembly is balanced using the center hole as reference (with or without a "pin plate" for clamping, it's still balanced. If it doesn't fit on the hub that uses lugs to center, and doesn't run true and vibrates the issue is RUNOUT in the final assembly, NOT balance. Balancing by using a damaged bolt circle (the usual problem) isn't going to cure any balance issures.

If bolt circle and center hole isn't concentric, even when rolling down the road, the only way to cure the problem is to replace either wheel or hub, whichever is causing the problem. Unfortunately few shops have the training or equipment to check.

How many times have you seen a wheel without tire mounted on a hub and runout at the bead seating surfaces being checked on a problem wheel? Even better, how many shops do you think have an accurate dial indicator with proper mount? Specialty shops yes. Most tire shops, not in my years of experience.

Next, how many times have you seen a hub's wheel studs checked to see if the bolt circle is true using the same dial indicator.

Machinists understand the concept and process. With respect to most tire shops, nobody has been properly trained to do the above. For the most part they get by as long as the hub ir wheel is "true". And then one comes along to eat their lunch. That's when I usually got called.

As for the video, it does a good job of illustrating how a wheel can have to rely on the lugs for centering. However, this is also a perfect example of an aftermarket wheel that is not an exact fit for the vehicle. A proper way to fit the wheel to the vehicle would be to add a Hub Centering Ring that adapts the hub pilot to the wheel center. Down the road when one or more of the nut seating surfaces, or even the lug nut itself wears irregularly the wheel will run as if it's out of round.

[Comanchecreek]

Thanks for all of the information Mike.
I guess we should give the OP back his post. Next time I'll leave it with, "Yes", I would balance my trailer tires.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Comanchecreek

Thanks for all of the information Mike.
I guess we should give the OP back his post. Next time I'll leave it with, "Yes", I would balance my trailer tires.

My apologies to the OP. There's so much "serial misinformation" about balancing I often get carried away. I guess I'm not much different than the Career Electrician, Plumber, etc that tries to correct the "fables" that often circulate.