Product and towing questions for 2502 S Mini Lite - New Member

[Solo1]

Hello Folks - Extreme newbie here..and new member.

I have never towed a trailer before and in researching options I keep coming back to the 2505s due to its weight, roominess, seating, 2 doors, and overall layout (kitchen and bath away from the living space).

I have a low mileage (56k) 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Ltd with 4.7 v-8 4x4 and factory tow package (I believe class iv) with a 6500lb towing capacity.

Fully loaded, how much does the 2502S trailer usually weigh? Do those on this forum with engine / towing capacity similar to mine have any issues? Based on research, I expect that I would tow about 5,500 lbs which would hopefully give me a good margin of error vs. the Jeep's 6500 lb towing capacity.

What is your overall experience with the 2505 S trailer? Any observations would be greatly appreciated.

David
Winter Park, FL.

[gtkato]

Solo1
I think it is possible, but I think you will find the 2505S a little much for your GC 4.7 V8.

I think the 2109S is very similar, but about 1000lbs less GVWR and 150 lbs less tongue weight. By the time you add water, propane and gear, you will find the tongue weight to increase by about 100-200 lbs from spec.
I am just right with the 1809S pulled by a Durango Hemi 5.7 and MAX tow setup of 8400lbs.
Invest in a good WD hitch....if you travel in mountains you will want a smaller trailer for you TV. You can make it work with your TV, but you will be maxed out.

[Mountainmanbob]

Originally Posted by Solo1

I have never towed a trailer before and in researching options I keep coming back to the 2505s due to its weight, roominess, seating, 2 doors, and overall layout (kitchen and bath away from the living space).

I have a low mileage (56k) 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Ltd with 4.7 v-8 4x4 and factory tow package

I pulled trailers for around 15 years on the job
this is what the MountainLady and I have now
and it
((keeps me on my toes while driving))

Tundra 5.7
and a lighter Mini-Light 20' trailer
((keeps me on my toes))
thinking you would expect the same
plus add some extra caution
on the hills it may disappoint you a little ??

you will be working that baby !

Mountainman

[Solo1]

Thanks much for the input gtKato and Mountainman.....

I would really like to "make it work" with my setup, but I don't want to feel unstable, unsafe going down the road.

Any others with experiences / comments to share about my possible setup or the 2502S would be greatly appreciated.

David

[gtkato]

Solo1
I would invest in some good shocks and even maybe some airbags and HD sway bar if you stick with the GC 4.7. Diablo Sport tuners are great for Chrysler V-8s which add about 15-20 hp, 15-20 lb of torque, AND better gas mileage. The issue for stability for your setup is not so much power and torque, but tongue weight and short wheel base of your GC. The setup will work with a good WD hitch, but you may still feel like the 'Tail wagging the Dog'.
I also started out with a smaller TV (Nissan Xterra 08 with 280hp and 300lb of torque) added shocks and Hypertech Tuner, and moved up to a larger TV (08 Durango) because it was not totally comfortable going down the road with the short wheel base, and especially Mountain roads with curves.
A lot of folks purchase TT that are too much for thier TV and end up buying larger TV. Much cheaper to buy the right size TT first, get some experience driving with a TT, and then decide if a larger TT or larger TV is needed.
This forum is a great resource from RVers that have years and years of experience.

[Solo1]

Thanks so much for the input. Great info. As a total newb to towing, it's great that those with so much experience are willing to share.

Have been looking again at other models. Would 400-500 lbs fewer make a notable difference or do I really have to take off 800 -1000lbs to avoid the "tail wagging the dog effect".

Considering the Surveyor Series SP 220 and SP 230. These seem to have a better build quality than the Rockwood....or is that just my imagination?

Thx. again.

David

[Dave_Monica]

That camper listed a dry weight of 3885 and tongue weight of 400 lbs. Your estimate of 5500 lbs loaded is a reasonable number. Get yourself a good weight distribution hitch with integrated sway control, a good brake controller and you'll be good to go. Your GC with the 4.7L will struggle a bit when it gets hilly.

Dave

[gtkato]

Solo1
I really like the SP220 with the huge dinnette slideout and entertainment privacy wall. Forest River lists dry weights WITHOUT add-ons, so the dry weight will be closer to 4200lbs (without gear, water, or propane)
You can easily count on adding 1000lbs loaded with normal gear and passengers. The 220 is still close to 25ft in total length, but you can make it work IF you don't overload (since it has a GVWR or close to 7000lbs).
I think the Surveyors are a step up from the Mini-Lite series in quality, and you will pay extra $$$ for the Surveyors. Like Dave mentioned, you will need to start with a good WD hitch First......test it out, and add what is needed later after a few test trips. The tongue weight will be well in excess of 500 lbs with propane and some water (better not to fill the h2o tanks full). I still think you will be pushing the limits of your GC, but I understand wanting the amenities of the layouts mentioned.
In the spring, I will be looking at light weight trailers (with dinnette slideout) that have a full queen bed walkaround.

[Solo1]

The nice thing about the 2502S is that you get the dinette, sofa and bed...in living area and kitchen is off to the side.

All for only an extra 400 lbs!

[gtkato]

Solo1
You need to pay close attention to the specs on your GC. I've towed with two older GC with V-8's in past with 16ft and 19ft TT, and felt those size TT were just about right. You need to check the GVWR (gross vehicle weght rating) and GCVWR (gross combined weight rating)
Your GC is close to 15ft and carrying capicity of around 1000lbs (must include passengers, gear, fuel, and tongue weight of TT)
I think a 25 ft TT will feel like the 'tail wagging the dog' with your GC. There are a lot of threads here and on RV.net discussions on towing capacities with SUVs. Do your research before purchasing your TT. Getting to your camping destination and getting back home are half the RV experience. Driving 'with hand cramps and white knuckles', passing Semi's, curvy roads, mountain passes, and avoiding traffic, etc are all things RVers do with safety first and foremost. I have owned larger RVs and TT with tons of room and amenities, but have come back to a smaller setup. A lot of National parks, and Camp grounds will not accomodate the larger RVs. We just came back from Glacier National Park, and our smaller setup opened our camping options by 80%. The overall experience of RV/TT camping always will include the driving part. Learn from experience and you will be hooked for life if done the right way.

[Mountainmanbob]

Originally Posted by gtkato

I have owned larger RVs and TT with tons of room and amenities, but have come back to a smaller setup.

A lot of National parks, and Camp grounds will not accomodate the larger RVs.

We just came back from Glacier National Park, and our smaller setup opened our camping options by 80%.

sounds familiar
we recently sold an older RV Super Chief 31'
only seem to really need for the two of us
our little 20' trailer seems to fit the bill now
not to be limited by size in State Parks this summer
is a big plus for us
THING pulls pretty nice also
have not even tried the stabilizing setup that came with it - yet
from what my friend has told me
we will be very grateful we have it if and when traveling far

small rig for two seems great (cozy)
4 or more changes everything

Mountainman

[gtkato]

Mountainmanbob
not sure what you mean by stabilizing setup? Your WD hitch, or stabalizing jacks?
If either one, you will be amazed...
Just wish our 1809S had FULL quee sized beds, and ran N/S
This spring, I will go to our RV show and check out the New Forest River V-Cross Vibe TT's (lightweight, aerodynamic, fiberglass roof, large holding tanks, green construction, full sized queen beds, and HUGE passthrough storage...under the raised bed area, and can hold the full sized spare standing upright)
Love all the innovations that mfg are focusing on smaller RV TTs.

[NONI]

Solo1

There is a lot more to consider when towing. One big issue is Insurance. It will not cover if you exceed the towing capacity of your vehicle, and in most cases will be the bases for lawsuits. Laws is the second, as many states have different regulations that you must consider if you plan on visiting those states. (i.e:; VA requires brake controls on trailers over 2,200# weight, CO has a maximum of 60MPH speed when towing, etc.) I don't want to scare you, just give you some helpful advise.

You need to do some homework before you start putting your towing setup together. In general, AWD and 4WD vehicles have a lower towing capacity than a comparable 2WD vehicle. Pickup trucks with extra-cab and crew cab designs also tend to have lower towing capacity than comparable standard cab designs. It pays to research towing capacities thoroughly. Your best means of determining your vehicle's towing capacity is to read your vehicle's owner's manual and to compare the information there with the certification plate on your driver's door sill. You can also call your vehicle manufacturer and with VIN number on hand they will tell you the GCWR, GVWR, GCW, GVW and all other information you need to do your calculations.

One more thing is Trailer's tongue weight. That's the weight on the coupler when your trailer is fully loaded and ready to go. In general, you want to try for about 10% of the total trailer weight to be carried on the tongue.
Look online for additional information on how to calculate towing capacities based on vehicle, gear, passengers, tongue weight, and of course towing capacity.

Good luck in your search.

[NONI]

Here is one quick calculation you can use;
GCWR (of your Towing Vehicle) - EW (Estimated TV Weight) - Passenger Weight - Gas (full gas of tank on TV) - Trailer Tounge Weight = Maximum Trailer Weight. Some people like to add a safety factor to the Trailer Weight and deduct 20% for safety. That will give you an idea of what range you can tow.

Here are some numbers for easy understanding. A TV with GCWR of 13,000 and a TV EW of 5700 w/gear, with 800# on passengers, (16gal of gas x 6 = 96), Trailer tongue of 550#. Ok, 13,000 - 5700 - 800 - 96 - 550= 5854# Hope this helped.

[Solo1]

gtkato / Noni / Mountainman - thanks again for the input. I do not want the driving to be a totally unpleasant experience.

I have pretty much resolved that 24-25 feet and 5500 lbs and resulting tongue weight of the 2502S is probably pushing the edge too much. So I am downsizing the expectations to 20-22 feet and no more than 3800 dry weight / 5200 loaded weight which would be 80% of JGC capacity.

The Surveyor Sport 220, 230 and the Rockwood 2104, 2304 or 2109 or Freedom Express 191RB (19 feet) are currently under consideration. The Surveyors are 5" less wide than the Rockwoods which would help with the wind resistance.

http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/def...=SurveyorSport the 230 = 3555 dry.

http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/def...eries=MiniLite 2104 = 3420 dry . murphy bed provides couch during day as does 2304 with 3720 dry weight but 23' 7".

http://www.coachmenrv.com/products/f...oorplanid=4149 the Coachman LTZ Freedom Express is 19 feet and only 3,300 lbs dry. Looks like possible option.

Still wondering if I need to get down a little lower in size and weight (i.e 3300 / 4750 total). Guess its hard to determine the benefit of marginal weight reduction from 5,500 lbs to 5,200 lbs or to 4,750 lbs for the TT vs. 6,500 towing capacity of the JGC.

My estimate per Noni's equation above looks like: 11,000-5,200-400-100-500= 4,800 (unsure about the tongue weight calculation).

Thanks again for the sound advice.

David

P.S. FWIW : I have done addl. research on details of Jeep Grand Cherokee Ltd. It has 4.7L 8 cyl. SOHC engine, quadra Drive II 4WD system, GVW rating of 5,500#, max towing capacity 6,500#, GCWR 11,000#, "Up Country Suspension" which includes "heavy duty suspension with gas shocks", class iv receiver hitch, upgraded springs, 4 skid plates, 7 pin wiring harness / 7 to 4 adapter, 5 speed auto, 3.73 rear axel ratio, Dana 44/226MM rear axle, hydraulic engine cooling and the wiring for brake controller. There is an upgradeable sway bar and bushing set available.

[Solo1]

Correction to calculation of Noni equation in post above:

11,000 - 4200 - 400 -100 - 500 = 6300

makes more sense - I accidentally inserted TT total weight for the TV curb weight in first calculation in prior post. So at 5,500# Total TT weight, there would be a 800 lb margin of error or 13% of calculated max TT weight total and 14.5% of total TT weight. Assuming the toungue weight estimate is accurate.

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by Solo1

The Surveyors are 5" less wide than the Rockwoods which would help with the wind resistance.

Huh ?? I didn't know any of those models were less that 8'. There used to be 7 1/2' models in Rockwood and Flagstaff a number of years ago, but I think all of those are now at 8'. I wanted 1 of the 7 1/2' models for the same reason you are thinking....less wind resistance.

Have you thought about a R-Pod ?? If you are concerned about wind resistance (as we all should be), that might be an option. Those are listed at 8', but I believe that is to the fenders. Since the fenders are about 1' on each side, then the body of the trailer would be closer to 7'.

[Solo1]

Whoops! Sorry I meant 5" (inches!) less high at 8'10 vs 9'3".

Looked at R-Pods, but, unless I'm missing something, they don't have any wardrobes / closets.

Hail to the Blue Ridge!! Spent many years in the area. (driving through to WVA (Lewisburg / Greenbrier area growing up ) and during college.

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by Solo1

Whoops! Sorry I meant 5" (inches!) less high at 8'10 vs 9'3".

Gotcha....I should have realized that.

I think some of the models that don't have ducted AC are a little lower, plus the inside ceiling height could be lower. Generally, the longer trailers sit higher, to allow for drag problems will all of the extra length behind the wheels.

My Surveyor sits low.....I am at ~9'10" at the AC, and about 8'10" to the roof-line. I have only dragged the rear skip plates 1 time.

[Solo1]

Per gtkato's comment above, I am checking out the Vibe 6500 series....looks nice...accept no closets. Very lightweight, low tongue weight.

Good call gtkato! WHere do you hang your clothes?

Haven given up on the 2505S (drat!) I keep coming back to the Surveyor 220, though the separate bedroom might make it feel a bit tight on the inside. Nice tv viewing though. Very nicely appointed, and ducted A/C which I assume is a positive (I'm in FL.)

I know, I'm obsessed. And my gf is really unsure about this camping thing.

What % of time do most people dry camp?